Too Many Seals

[Slipknot]

ok, about sharks, I'll rephrase the question. Is there a predator that can come close to controlling the seal population on the cape? a dozen or so loses per year to sharks does not qualify in my opinion.

I'm not saying kill them all like that Monomy seagull episode back a couple decades ago. But they're numbers could certainly use some thinning before all the fish are gone and then they will definately leave. 10,000+ seals in the area is a bit much can't you admit that as a human who also fishes?

Polar bears are starving, feed them a seal or 100, good idea.

[likwid]

Originally Posted by Slipknot

ok, about sharks, I'll rephrase the question. Is there a predator that can come close to controlling the seal population on the cape? a dozen or so loses per year to sharks does not qualify in my opinion.

A dozen or so with a barely recovering population of apex predators that were OH LOOK AT THAT WIPED OUT BY US TOO!

But they're numbers could certainly use some thinning before all the fish are gone and then they will definately leave.

See the issue is, the fish won't be gone, they're not going to wipe out all the bass and bluefish. If the numbers actually got that low they'd move on. You're anthropomorphizing seals. They're not going to stay in one spot and wipe it 100% clean, the only creature that does that is humans. Once a population of food starts getting lower, they'll move or eat something else.

10,000+ seals in the area is a bit much can't you admit that as a human who also fishes?

Are there 10,000+ seals? Has someone released these numbers as 100% accurate or are you just guessing?

Polar bears are starving, feed them a seal or 100, good idea.

Yeah they are, and its sad.

[Blitzseeker]

Likwid-

I am sympathetic to conservationist points of view in general, but I'm not sure I follow your logic here.

Once humans have f'ed things up and knocked nature out of balance, which with seals happened quite a long time ago, a resource management approach needs to be taken. They are multiplying very quickly, and by the thousands (there are scientific reports of 6,000+ out on the Cape, not sure about the 10,000 number). They are essentially unchecked by natural predators, and they are making a huge mess and ruining the fishing which has a huge economic impact. Something different needs to happen than whats going on right now. Just like deer. Once you kill off all the predators, as we did long ago, you have to allow a hunt or there will be so many deer that they'll pretty much eat everything and starve themselves. Seals are rapidly heading for a similar mess, if we're not already there.

Just my opinion.

[likwid]

Originally Posted by Blitzseeker

ruining the fishing which has a huge economic impact.

Economic impact to who? Inshore dragging is already dead. They cut their own throats long ago.
It hasn't affected sport fishing yet.
And its not like sport fishing is even a blip on the screen of the (for example) cape economy.

Once you kill off all the predators, as we did long ago.

And the cycle continues, kill the seals before the predator population comes back, once it does start coming back, too many predators, gotta kill/trap them now.

Do I have an answer? Nope, but hopefully someone will come up with one that will make everyone happy otherwise nothing will get done. Yes, that means you have to work with the tree huggers and plover huggers and comms and peta and greenpeace and rich idiots with summer homes and everyone else despite what you think about them.

[Rappin Mikey]

I agree with Blitzeeker. I also think that 6,000 is a very modest estimate and the numbers are probably closer to double that. People need to experience what is going on first hand before they pass judgement on others. A controlled hunting season is definitely what is required. In the past five years I have seen a direct correlation between the growing number of seals and the depleting number of species of fish. Not that I like them, but I haven't caught a skate or a sculpin in about three years. An occasional fluke or flounder use to be able to be picked off from the shore a few years back. Not any more. Raking for sandeels is almost a lost cause now, or at least a half day event. My father told me the numbers a few years back. Don't quote me but I'm sure if someone starts to dig they can find the accurate info. I think he said that a full grown seal eats roughly 100+pounds of fish a day. Multiply that by 10,000. Now multiply that by the number of days that fish are in our area, lets say 180. That is about 180million pounds of fish. There is a huge economic inpact on the Cape. Many people I know will not fish there because of the plovers and the seals. Buisnesses are starting to go under.

[FishermanTim]

One other aspect of the seals would be the fact that they may migrate, but not very far. They find a nice place to raise their young, and PRESTO: you now have a breeding rookery. Now the seals will use this as their "center of operations", heading elsewhere to feed, but returning back to the colony.
What this has probably done is set up the perfect opportunity for the seals to hunt up and down the Mass shores and return to their "new homes" to feed their young. After the young have fledged/left the nest, so to speak, the adults aren't just going to leave.
Just like humans, they will eat all that they can within their "home" range, and then proceed to increase their range to find food.
What this means is that the areas close to their nesting sites will be devoid of most larger species of fish, starting with flounder, skates, cunners and porgies.
Think about it: if there is a store 1 block away that ran out of your favorites snack, would you stop going there, or check in from time to time to see if they have it again? Seals would follow the same practice. It's not a "human" trait to wipe out an area of food, we just put a "human" name on it and claimed we caused it first.

[likwid]

Originally Posted by Rappin Mikey

I also think that 6,000 is a very modest estimate and the numbers are probably closer to double that.

speculation.

A controlled hunting season is definitely what is required.

Won't happen. Don't bother cleaning the .30-06. If ANYTHING it will be done by fish and game, DMF, etc. And if more seals get found popped, they're gonna do a number on fishing on the Cape before anything else.

Raking for sandeels is almost a lost cause now, or at least a half day event.

If there's no sand eels then what were those giant bait balls doing off race point last year? Why were the tuna inshore? Maybe they're gay tuna.

Many people I know will not fish there because of the plovers and the seals. Buisnesses are starting to go under.

The New Yorkers on vacation with their walmart specials are the economy, not the hardcore fishermen.

I think he said that a full grown seal eats roughly 100+pounds of fish a day.

Your father a biologist?
http://www.seaworld.org/animal-info/...-seal/diet.htm

Adult harbor seals eat 5% to 6% of their body weight per day, about 4.5 to 8.2 kg (10-18 lb.).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grey_Seal

The average daily food requirement is estimated to be 5kg (11lb), though the seals do not feed every day and they fast the breeding season.

[kippy]

wow..you have an answer for everything..

[likwid]

Originally Posted by kippy

wow..you have an answer for everything..

You contribute so much.

[Blitzseeker]

Lik-

Fair enough comments, but personally I see no doubt that it has strongly effected both the surf fishing and the economy. I stay up there enough to know for sure that it has effected the hotel owners quite a bit. As for the fishing, that ground has been covered many times.

I'm not saying killem all, I'm just saying keepem in check.

[likwid]

Originally Posted by Blitzseeker

I'm not saying killem all, I'm just saying keepem in check.

Yup, a solution needs to be found.
And its not going to be a bunch of 'necks on the beach with rifles thank god.
I'd guess it'd take a week after that opened for some idiot to shoot a surfer.

I'm trying to figure out whats going on on the West Coast that keeps their seal populations in check since they're protected. (Other than the Southern California Great White population)

I'm pretty sure seals were basically almost wiped out there too at one point.

[Grapenuts]

Originally Posted by maddmatt

when i'm incharge........

get rid of the marine mammal protection act and bring back the bounty!!

death to the seals!! death to the seals!! death to the seals!!

Well! if you can't kill them perhaps the brok-back dune gang in PT can breed them out.

[RIROCKHOUND]

[QUOTE=likwid;589746]

Your father a biologist?
http://www.seaworld.org/animal-info/...-seal/diet.htm

Adult harbor seals eat 5% to 6% of their body weight per day, about 4.5 to 8.2 kg (10-18 lb.).
QUOTE]

That was a crappy way to answer. Are you a biologist?
regardless, almost 20lb/day x an est. 6,000 seals is still a lot of fish consumed.

[likwid]

Originally Posted by RIROCKHOUND

That was a crappy way to answer. Are you a biologist?
regardless, almost 20lb/day x an est. 6,000 seals is still a lot of fish consumed.

Sure but everyone relying on information from the past would tell us we need to kill all the sharks, seals, and anything else that might look funny at what we want.

Also there's no problems with the Cod stock either.

And cigarettes don't give you cancer.
Make sure to use DDT on everything.
Seatbelts don't save lives.
Cocaine is good for you.

[fishbones]

Likwid, you seem to have done some research on this. Some people are concerned about the seals eating the bass and blues and decreasing the fish population that way. In reality, the seals are eating the same food as the gamefish. They feed on menhaden, alewives, herring, and mackerel along with other bait fish and squid, clams and crustaceans. The competition for food is what is driving the fish away, mostly offshore. The stripers and blues being picked off of someone's line are only taken because they are easy prey for the seals. And fishermen do spend money on the cape. Stop into a 24 hour Dunkin Donuts or c-store in the middle of the night. Check out the parking lots of motels and look for trucks with trailers. Look at the boats on trailers being filled up at gas stations all over the cape. Now, I know that tourism is always going to be #1 on the cape. But, if fishermen chose to band together and use their combined voice about this and other issues (better discussed in other threads), they would at least raise awareness. As for the west coast, the inshore fishing has gotten worse over the years. Maybe it's because the seals have eaten a lot of the bait. Then, the seals move on because they are looking for food. Seals have a very large range and can travel far. They stop and take up residence where food is plentiful. Until they decimate the bait stocks around here, we will not see them going anywhere.

[likwid]

Originally Posted by fishbones

They feed on menhaden, alewives, herring, and mackerel along with other bait fish and squid, clams and crustaceans.

Which we've (as a WHOLE not just any one group) already done a FANTASTIC job of decimating.

And the cycle continues.

But, if fishermen chose to band together and use their combined voice about this and other issues (better discussed in other threads), they would at least raise awareness.

You know, it would work better if people could pull their collective heads out of their as!@#!@# and work together on this than relying on just one group.
These issues don't just affect fishermen.
The growing population of seals (among the other issues) affects pretty much everyone who goes anywhere near a beach.

[Rappin Mikey]

Likwid, the way you break down people's posts is very passive aggressive. I have a list of questions and statements for you.
1. Are you a biologist?
2. When was the last time you fished from shore on the outter cape?
3. Do you like gay tuna?
4. When was the last time you tried to rake sandeels inshore??
5. I believe the horsehead seals are different then the seals at Sea World
6. Before I made my statements I said don't quote me these were told to me a few years ago and someone could go digging if they wanted to.
7. My dad is an engineer, he is a very logical person, not the type to make things up out of the blue. The data that he told me was quoted from something he had read. Again this was a few years ago so I might not be accurrate.
8. When was the last time you fished from shore on the outter Cape? From your comments I would guess it was a very long time.

[likwid]

Originally Posted by Rappin Mikey

Likwid, the way you break down people's posts is very passive aggressive. I have a list of questions and statements for you.

Because its the same things over and over without any evidence. It gets old.

1: Nope, but what I quote is from biologists

2: Last fall

3: I loves all the tunas equally. Om nom nom nom.

4: I don't rake, I go by what I see in the water.

5: Grey seals (Halichoerus grypus) a larger seal, are being seen more frequently but harbour seals still outnumber them. The grey seal population in the Bay of Fundy appears to be on the increase. Males reach lengths of 245cm (8') and weigh 450kg (990lb), females 215cm (7') and 270kg (600lb). The head is long and the seal is often called the"horsehead" seal.
Kinda like aussies call bluefish tailors. Same thing.

6: Ok, but too many people run around with facts and figures that came from someone else that said something else that they read in a book that was written in 1902.

7: I can provide links and/or books to prove what I say.

8: Repeat, last fall. Thats not very "long ago". And I'm down there just about every other weekend just for the hell of it. (Including all winter long. Nice place to take the dog for a walk.)

If people (in general) don't educate themselves, they're doomed to failure. Walking into something (say the seal problem) blindly with just speculation and heresay won't solve the issue. It'll just make it worse.

[fishbones]

[QUOTE=likwid;589762]Which we've (as a WHOLE not just any one group) already done a FANTASTIC job of decimating.

Since this thread was about seals, I was making my point about what the seals are eating. They eat the same food as the fish we are trying to catch. As the seal population increases, the baitfish stocks will decrease. Then, the seals will move on to other areas where they can find abundant food. That will leave the stripers and blues with a lot less food and they will move on also.

I think everyone on this site is aware of what humans have done to the baitfish stocks in New England. When herring were almost gone, they put a ban on taking herring. They have also put limits on the taking of some gamefish that have become overfished.

So, the government can take action to try to fix problems of overfishing by humans. Unfortunatley, there is no regulation of the seals taking baitfish.

[Rappin Mikey]

However you want to look at it, or where ever you get your data from, it is visibly obvious that the seals population is in the midst of an explosion. You might see balls of bait "offshore" but ask anyone that has been raking sandeels over the years and you'll get the same response I'm giving you. I haven't seen one skate pulled up on the beach in three years. I would say roughly 50% of the fish I catch now are chased by seals, as opposed to 0% four years ago. You hear it all over the outter Cape that buisnesses are struggling. I just find it odd that someone who is out there as much as you claim you are hasn't noticed any of this. I know seals can't be held 100% responsible for all of this. But I also do know that they are contributing to the problem and to close your eyes to the whole matter confuses me a little bit. Anyway, that's all I have to say on this. You all can flame on now.

[likwid]

Originally Posted by Rappin Mikey

You hear it all over the outter Cape that buisnesses are struggling.

There was a winter long series about the cape and life on NPR.

They detailed a ton of issues with the cape from property prices to lack of real jobs being the cause of the decline (People who live out there year around talking about this, not NPR). Not once did they mention seals.

You'd think if it were a major cause like people are making it out to be that they would have talked about it?

[likwid]

Originally Posted by fishbones

So, the government can take action to try to fix problems of overfishing by humans. Unfortunatley, there is no regulation of the seals taking baitfish.

I'd put money on Omega Protein taking more menhaden than the entire MA seal population eats in a year.

[Rappin Mikey]

One last thing, 5%-6% of a 990lb animal is much closer to 50# then 18#.

[Slipknot]

http://www.greyseal.net/ABOUT/history.htm

[fishbones]

Originally Posted by likwid

I'd put money on Omega Protein taking more menhaden than the entire MA seal population eats in a year.

Maybe someone can start shooting them.

[Slipknot]

no likwid, 6000 is probably not an accurate count I agree, I don't think 10000 is right either

count these in this picture and do the math

I bet there are more

[likwid]

Originally Posted by Slipknot

http://www.greyseal.net/ABOUT/history.htm

Thats actually out of a fantastic book.

On the basis of data that are themselves suspect, the department asserts that horseheads consume 50,000 metric tonnes (1980 figures) of valuable fishes every year, or 10 per cent of the half-a-million tonnes taken by Canadian east-coast fisherman. Analysis of this charge demonstrates that less than 20,000 tonnes of the consumption attributed to horseheads (but by no means proven) is of species of even marginal commercial value. Furthermore, the presumed tonnage represents live weight-the weight of the whole fish-while the figure for the commercial catch is based on processed weight-only that portion of the fish that is packaged for sale. The live weight taken by Canadian commercial fisherman in 1980 was approximately 1.2 million tonnes. The percentage of commercially valuable fish eaton by the seals can therfore be no more than 1.6 per cent.

Originally Posted by fishbones

Maybe someone can start shooting them.

Someone push Greenpeace's buttons enough about them and they'll run over their nets and ram their ships.
See? Greenpeace CAN do fishermen good.

Originally Posted by Slipknot

count these in this picture and do the math

What time of year was that?
What did the other haulout locations look like?

Questions that need answers to make an educated guess on real numbers.

Anyone know if WHOI has done any counting?

[JohnnySaxatilis]

Well it finally happened to me... Fishing in a nice school of cookie cutters, blow ups every cast. Got a nice fish on, took a little drag; and its about 20yrds away in pretty tight to the shore. I see a giant black shape emerge behind my bass and up comes a huge grey seal. He chases my fish around for a second and pretty soon he's got it. Then my line starts peeling big time and soon enough he cuts through the line. Then the bastage comes up with my fish in its mouth, and my lefthook pilgrim, obviously taunting me.... Had a few calm choice words of course. I think it went something like:

"GO F YOURSELF YOU STUPID FING SEAL, I HOPE YOU CHOKE ON THAT DAMN PLUG!"

Luckily the fishing didnt totally shut off, just all the big fish left

[JLH]

Originally Posted by JohnnySaxatilis

Well it finally happened to me... Fishing in a nice school of cookie cutters, blow ups every cast. Got a nice fish on, took a little drag; and its about 20yrds away in pretty tight to the shore. I see a giant black shape emerge behind my bass and up comes a huge grey seal. He chases my fish around for a second and pretty soon he's got it. Then my line starts peeling big time and soon enough he cuts through the line. Then the bastage comes up with my fish in its mouth, and my lefthook pilgrim, obviously taunting me.... Had a few calm choice words of course. I think it went something like:

"GO F YOURSELF YOU STUPID FING SEAL, I HOPE YOU CHOKE ON THAT DAMN PLUG!"

Luckily the fishing didnt totally shut off, just all the big fish left

How did the seal fight? Strong steady pull that you had not chance in stopping?

I've had two fish grabbed by something in the last few weeks. It was at night so I never got a look at whatever it was. It was just swam off at a moderate pace with the fish and I had no chance of stopping it. Thinking seal but could be a shark I guess.

[fishpoopoo]

I gave up fishing the outer beaches of the cape a while ago. One spot I went to scout at daytime had 60+ seals, easily.

They are very intelligent. They see you with a fishing rod, they will follow you. Kinda like dogs.

Anyhoo, FWIW, the fishing is not bad on the Bay side. Not as many seals.

I haven't seen as many seals in RI as I have on the outer cape this summer.