And, Gibbs plugs S**k!!

[SeaWolf]

Mike P, I'm a fisherman, who loves to fish the surf more than anything else. I was trying to be as political as possible, but yet trying to make my point. I am not affiliated to any lure manufacturer, nor ever was, if that's what might have crossed your mind or were curious.

I am assuming someone from Gibbs Lures reads these boards from time to time or someone that knows them does and can forward our bad experiences to this manufacturer. I used to love Gibbs Lures, but the plugs are just not the same, as we have seen and are discussing here. Right now, Gibbs only makes 3 lures that no one else does - Darters, Trolling Swimmers, and Bottle Plugs. I have not looked at a TS yet since the new ones have come out, so I cannot comment on those. I noticed your point about the GS'es and will make it a point to check them out soon; I don't have any new ones. I really don't fish them much anyhow. But, the lure that hurts me the most is their Darter. Wanna know another way to tell the new ones from the last ones made? Check out the top of the lure...notice how the lure is now more "angled" and not a smooth transition to the back? I can't believe these things are cracking/splitting like they are. That's poor! I have no problem w/ the being thru-wired because the screws are very long, epoxied in, and rarely move, never mind come out. But, please Gibbs, fix that lure! If someone else made these same lures, but better, I'd jump on their bandwagon quick.

Feel free to drop me an email if you want...

[JohnR]

Seawolf, maybe that is part of the problem. Other manufacturers are not making those wooden darters so the heat is off in a way to modify, improve, or go back to basics with them. Looking at my plug bag would show 80% wood with 2/3rds of that being Gibbs product. I do use them but have had some QC issues with them... Fortunately (for me), not as bad as Mikes...

[chris L]

I found a problem with their products they use mustand hooks . I dont know that brand must be inferior to the mustads many use "Mustand 3X strong hooks with supporting swivels to sustain the battle " . Ok so its not funny but . I actually have never had a problem yet with their product . I do like habs and hawg hunters more .

[Mike P]

Sea Wolf, I hope you didn't take what I said the wrong way :-). I just wanted to make it clear that you and I don't know each other and didn't conspire here as supposed friends with supposed problems with Gibbs plugs ;-)

I notcied the change in the cut on the head of the darter the last time I bought a supply. It's stepped now, with angled cuts at each step. I have a theory on why they altered this plug and the bottle.

For a lot of people, bottles and darters are condition-specific, or location-specific, lures. They don't have as much built in action as a plastic minnow swimmer, or a metal lipped swimmer. The bottle's lip was designed, originally, to grab and dig in rough water or in fast current, where the other plugs either tumble or swim in too exaggerated a manner. In flat water with little or no current, they don't work right on a slow retrieve. Darters come thru currentless water like a piece of driftwood. Gibbs might have altered the head on both plugs in response to complaints that they "don't swim". So, you take a few blank bodies, play around with the taper and cut of what gives them their wiggle, and tank test them. Tank testing isn't a reflection of how these plugs will react under the right conditions, where most of the guys in areas where these plugs are most popular, will use them. Even feld-testing won't work unless the location is the right one. What concerns me most about the new lip on the bottle swimmer is that the flatter profile, while it might give them better calm water swimming properties, might as a consequence detract from their ability to bite and dig in rough surf. I have to say that the new cut on the darter doesn't seem to have resulted in it being less productive, at least since I became aware of it. I guess I have a mixed bag of larger darters, still, and never really check what head one has when I reach into my bag in the dark. But, all of my small darters have the new cut and they have been producing fish.

The only screw-eye plugs Gibbs makes are the darters, the Stan Gibbs poppers, and the 5/8 oz bottle plug. According to Gibbs, all screw-eye plugs are made from birch, not pine. Their early needlefish plugs also had screw-eyes.

Chris---I don't think it's the hooks themselves. Take any brand of lures that has open-eyed hooks attached, be it Superstrike, Atom, Yankee or Gibbs, and you will find a high failure rate right out of the package. Mass marketed plugs have to come with hooks attached, and a lot of people will not buy a plug if "something looks wrong"--like, fer instance, if the pieces of the hook eye aren't flush. Personally, I would rather the plugs be sold without hooks so I can attach them myself, using the style I want. But the average guy doesn't, and the manufacturers, I believe, bend the eye back and forth if the guy attaching it doesn't get the pieces flush on the first shot. Or, they're buying lesser quality Mustads than what's available to the public. Only two things I can think of, because every open-eye I attach doesn't snap under light pliers pressure until it gets corroded.

[chris L]

ditch
I was only joking cause of the mispelling on their website "mustand" instead of mustad I have a weird sense of humor .
they dont give misleading information just mispelled information . I found it funny and yes I misspeell words all the time . LOL
I agree I change my hooks on alot of my lures I buy , with 4X mustads havent tried VMC yet .

[JohnR]

Hey JCXX - Long time.... I haven't fished the ditch enough to offer a suggestion to you, but welcome back...

[SeaWolf]

Mike P - No, I didn't take it personally. I just wanted to do the same thing as you were doing, making a point about the plugs, how I'm not affliated w/ any manufacturer, and how we don't know each other (maybe in time...).

I picked up a couple GS1s today and didn't see any differences. They didn't have any '2s' or '3s', so I couldn't compare them. I'll have to look next time I'm at a surf store. I don't have any new Gibbs Plugs yet, still on the old ones - thankfully.

I think the new Darters being 'angled' like that on top just say the type of production they are making right now, l-a-z-y and quick. I have yet to try a new Darter, but a couple of my friends have tried them and don't like them. I'll have to "borrow" one and maybe even fool w/ the head. I've only had maybe one out of every 10 Darters not swim and one of every 50 just perfect in any condition. You really need to study the heads, drilling, angles, etc., when you buy any plug. I noticed a couple Darters today that were slightly off center in their head screw.

This now makes 2 lure manufacturers from the old school that are either gone or just not the same anymore. The other is Atom. Yes, they are still around, but they are not the same plug. I 'like' their attempt to make a Reverse again, but not have holes on the bottom for loading and swimming. Plus, they weren't in amber. I miss the old Atoms...Bob Pond was great! Am I missing something here??? Sure they are other and more wooden lure manufacturers nowadays, but only a couple produce consistent plugs.

I wish Gibbs made the old 3oz Danny Swimmer the same as they used to w/ the bigger and wider lip at the end. Again, not the same plug. Remember those Mike?

I agree w/ your comment on putting your own hooks on the plug. Sure, go ahead and make them for the average fisherman that doesn't have 14 boxes of hooks like me, but let me have that option. I much rather put them on and blame myself or the hook manufacturer if they break, than the lure manufacturer. If that option is available in a plug, I'm doing it. Mike, or anyone else, have you tried the VMC trebels yet? Are they available in open eye trebles?

[Saltheart]

For JCX , at certain stages of the tide or more correctly , current flow , you can use a darter at the Ditch. However , when its running full tilt boogie , I don't like any plugs. There is so much junk for you to lose a plug to that I just use jigs when its really bookin.

I loaded up on the gibbs plugs at the Worcester show about 3 shows back. I paid an average of $6.50 a piece and got about 30 of them. However , they are probably the last I will ever buy. I can't afford them anymore.

Habs makes nice plugs.

I have to second the opinion that Bob Pond's poppers poppers will be missed. I love to use Atom poppers in the fall when they are blitzing and see them bust it hard on the surface. Fortunately I found that 5 gallon bucket full in my cellar a couple of years ago. I only have about 60 left but intend to fish for 60 more years so that's just one a year I can lose!

[LINESIDES]

SeaWolf,
This comment triggered me to speak.
"I wish Gibbs made the old 3oz Danny Swimmer the same as they used to w/ the bigger and wider lip at the end. Again, not the same plug. Remember those Mike?"
Are you refering to the old style Gibbs Lure known simply as "The Trolling Swimmer"?

[Mike P]

Sea Wolf. I have tried VMC hooks. I'm not sure, but I think some of the Asian minnow swimmers and older Habs models came thru with 2x strong trebles. They aren't all that strong. I know that Habs now went to a 4x strong treble on his plugs. I ordered a bunch of the 4x VMC trebles, and have started changing them out. So far, I don't have any long-term feedback to give. They appear to be as bulletproof as a treble can be made, and are substantially cheaper than Owners. I have used the 4x strong Eagle Claw Sea Guard trebles for quite a few years, they hold up very well.

The 2x VMCs are not very rust resistant. I also don't think their Siwash-style hook, which Hab puts on the back of his needlefish, is as strong as a Mustad. But, that's just on a finger-compession basis. I don't think there's a stronger hook made than a Mustad Siwash in the tinned finish, at least not a replacement hook for plugs.

I think Mustad is the only game in town for open-eyed trebles, but not sure. I've been adding a ring to the screw eye on the belly of the darters and using the 4x EC trebles.

[Bob Senior]

I just bought four new Gibbs plugs after reading all this. If they're working so well that they're falling apart, then I want a whole set!!!

[Mike P]

Oh, they work all right--no one said they didn't work. Why do you think I keep buying them even though they crack on a good fish? That and the fact that they're the only game in town for wooden bottles and darters.

Point was, there was a time when they worked AND stayed in one piece for about a hundred fish.

I just have to say, also, I'm wondering what the "bouncy properties" of sugar pine are that are desireable??? Or, is it a case of misspelling "buoyancy"? The Clueless One wonders--maybe my good friend patrick can explain it to me

[Patrick]

Hey Ditch, I have a small casting swimmer that has screw eyes. It's a 5/8 oz fella. I think all their small plugs and all darters have screw eyes.

Allright, here's a question for you guys. When you say you have to work a darter in current. How should that current be in relationship to you? Coming towards you? Going away? Running left or right? My first guess would be running away from you but I just want to make sure.

[Slipknot]

Mike, I obviously don't know the exact situation with your split lure but I will say that wood being a product of nature is not 100 % predictable. There can be flaws in the wood that are undetectible under the surface. Maybe you got one of the few that may have had a check in the wood somewhere, but I can see how upset you can get seeing how they are supposed to be tested before you buy them. Nothing is perfect. As far as your other notes about the different cuts I won't comment on them, you are more familiar with them than I.

This thread is very good and I really wonder if that was a real email Patrick got, maybe the guy is too embarassed to respond to the forum.

And Saltheart, you found Gibbs' for $6.50 at Worcester. You bargain hunter you, I bought some there and paid 9 each. I gotta follow you around the next show

[MikeF]

Quite a few years ago Red Top had their own line of swimmers called Cap'n Bill's. I spoke with Bunny about these plugs several years ago and his reply may explain the 'splitting plug' phenomena.
It seems that these plugs became pretty popular and they had trouble meeting demands. So they hired someone to build the plugs for them. Bunny said in order to speed up the process the sub-contractor cut corners by not soaking or not soaking the plugs long enough in a solution (I think it was fermiculite or something like that). This caused all the plugs built in this manner to split after very little usage. You could always tell the plugs that Red Top built versus the ones that they had sub-contrated out.
The splits in these plugs was pretty unsightly. I used to just fill the split with epoxy and continue to fish them.
When you pay the current inflated prices for Gibbs lures .. you expect them to perform. The last lure I bought from them was a PP. The attachment thru wire was not even centered. So its still in the wrapper.

Anytime I use a popper in the future .. it will be a Hawg Hunter!

[SeaWolf]

Linesides, the old Danny I'm speaking of is in the 3oz. size. The big difference is sometime ago Gibbs decided to change the lip design so it's similar in all the sizes. Basically, the lip is the same width from the spot where it leaves the body to the tip. The older ones had a lip where it was the same width as the body where it met the body, but it widened a little as it came to the end. Follow me? No, I wasn't referring to the TS swimmers. I know the TS swimmers. Their lip was similar to what I described as well.

I do have to agree with you Mike P, for Darters and Bottles, Gibbs is the only game in town. I'm sure someone will make some wooden Darters soon. The Bottles I doubt because I'm sure Gibbs owns that patent.

A thread like this would be a waste if all the manufacturers don't read these boards. I'm sure a couple do and only browse, which would be fine by me. As long as they took what is said here into consideration.

[Patrick]

Nevermind

[Saltheart]

Slipknot , you got to read the fine print. Worcester show , 3 shows back , thats the 1999 show . The rumor was that the company would be sold and the prices would sky rocket. I loaded up before it all happened. A funny thing was that I couldn't get any needlefish cause some guy from RI had loaded up on them the day before and wiped them out. Turned out to be #^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&.

[JohnR]

They've been reading the board, and some e-mails were sent and recieved and I won't get into the nitty-gritty but I will say this. After receiving a couple of the e-mails, several points had been raised about the construction of these plugs where we were in error (so to speak) and I would like to pass along that info. This is hard fact, what the plugs are made with and out of. This is info which is not debatable such as construction materials used as opposed to percieved and actual perfromance or quality, which is really determined by the people that use the product.

Wanting to get the right info out, I have no problem with posting the correct construction materials which I was corrected on by one of the co-owners of Gibbs Lure, Dan Smalley:

Some of your assumptions as to what I questioned as bashing and uninformed were in regards to plug construction etc. Many of your clients made totally untrue comments as to what had and had not changed i.e..
1) Not all plugs are thru wired or ever have been
a) darters - birch construction and screw eyed
b) 1/2 oz pencil popper - birch and screw eyed
c) 5/8 oz casting swimmer -" "
d) 1 oz Polaris popper - " "
2) All other plugs are still made from sugar pine and thru wired
w/stainless wire and any plug that has screw eyes is of birch construction
3) Never has any of the screw eye plugs currently in the line been tail
weighted as one person points out. Many have a belly weight but no tail
weight and never have.
4) I can say personally that I nor anyone in my employ have ever seen a
split darter. It sounds almost to unbelievable that one person could have
been unlucky enough to have "7" such rejects.
5) As far as cost we had an initial increase 3 yr. ago and have held firm
since. Plugs are now available and with a more consistent quality. Returns
are at an all time low and volume has tripled. Regrettably I am unable to
control what dealers might charge.
6) Most of our clients do not want a plug with splint rings holding the
hooks on and would prefer an open eye hook . When hooks need to be
replaced customer can either use a split ring with a closed eye hook or once again use an open eye hook. Most customer feel that an open eye hook lacking the split ring is still stronger. From a cost point a closed eye hook is also cheaper.
7) Gibbs plugs have always been hooked with a mustard 3X and still are.
Maybe these are not the best but all I can say from past experience is
that more trophy fish have been taken on these than any other plug ever made. With proper care the hooks should provide many hours of great fishing.

I'm sure that if bad plugs were returned to them, they would stick by their promise to back them up. I think that's fair to say too.

The above was put up as to get everyone on the same page as far as construction methods and I think that should be put up. There are still questions on the performance and quality of said plugs and that's where a lot of your opinions have been coming in. Especially those of you that have been working these plugs for generations.

But they have been reading the boards, whether they are listening or not, I can't tell you. But I think it's a hell of an opportunity for them to see what "Gibb's clients" are saying and feeling about their product. I say "Gibb's clients" because even though he stated above that you are my clients, that's not entirely true because I don't sell you anything. But you do buy Gibb's product as well as others and you fish 'em.

I also invite Dan or Dennis from Gibb's Lures to come onboard to give some insight to some of the other issues which are being disputed here such as quality and to a lesser degree, performance.

Again, they have been reading the progression of this thread and I hope they use this as an opportunity to interact with their clients that buy their product...

IF they do come on board to take the opportunity to discuss their product, tell them what you think and what you know in a constructive manner.

Thanks,

John

[Patrick]

I would also like to see them reply. I really don't like how they handled this situation. I don't care what a plug is made out of or what kind of hooks they have on there. As long as it works well. As a consumer, my job is to fish the plug, the manufacturers job is to find the best stuff that works.

I can see why the 1 oz Polaris, Small Pencil and 5/8 oz Gibbs aren't through wired. They are for targeting smaller fish. Here's a question, why aren't the darters through wired? They are awfully large and a lot of guys use them to target big fish. So why not?

[Slipknot]

Thanks John, that clears up some stuff.

And thanks Saltheart, I guess I got to pay closer attention.

[Jaiem]

There's (or at least used to be) another wood plug manufacturer in NJ called Diftwood Lures. Anyone hear/see/use them?

I first saw them last year at a surf seminar. The plugs sold well and many other casters said they had used them before and had better results than other brands. One of the owners sent me a sample pack of plugs and they were very nice plugs! They cast well, all were wire thru, and they worked! I did very well with their needle fish plug at BI last year.

[JohnR]

What about those "Beachmaster" plugs I saw at the Mass Bass show? I think they are out of Long Island or Jersey... Anyone know of them?

[Mike P]

As to Dan's points that I care to respond to:

1. Also, the Stan Gibbs poppers, in all sizes, have screw eyes. As did the originals---of which I have many still in the original red "Stan Gibbs Cast-a-Lure" box. Just for purposes of clarity.

4. What I said is the absolute truth. Whether it's unbeieveable to Dan Smalley or not. I'll display the plug to anyone who is intersted, and after I have the chance to photograph it---as well as the 2-1/2 one with hairline cracks starting to spread from the tail--I'll scan the photos to John. After which, I'll return it to Gibbs for Dan to see with his own "virgin" two eyes that I'm not full of bull. You will notice, when you see it, that the paint is pristine, both at the tail and all along the crack, that there are no dents or chips to the paint indicative of it coming in contact with a rock or bridge abutment. From the shape of the crack, you will also see that it is a stress fracture caused by external pressure to the plug, and not something that was cut into it---that is also evidenced by the lack of any damage to the paint whatsoever. I am not asking for a replacement--what I am asking for is an apology for unwarranted attacks on my reputation and credibility. But I'm just asking for that, not demanding it. I don't threaten people just for the sake of making noise. As far as the other cracking problems over the last season, well, I didn't save those plugs for posterity. Had I know this was going to turn into a pi**ing contest, I probably would have saved them. In addition to my own experience, I personally witnessed two 2-1/2 oz darters cracking, that other people were using, in situations where the plug was ingested deeply by a sizeable bass. If a plug can't stand up to the pressure a striper exerts with its crushers, maybe it's time to re-think the materials. If this is something inherent in the design of the plug, so be it. Then, fishermen have to choose on a cost/benefit analysis whether to continue using them. Most will as the plug produces. But if it is something that can be rectified by inspecting the grain of the wood and rejecting blanks that have irregularities that might be causing these cracks, that is something you may wish to look into.

5. It seems like you are conceding, by saying that the plugs "are now available and with a more consistent quality" that initially, the quality was inconsistent. Which it was. Some bottle swimmers didn't swim, and the same was true of some Danny swimmers. Also, just for the purposes of accuracy, you initially raised prices 25% after acquiring the company from Jim Gruiecci, and followed that with a 15% rise, which accounts for a 40% increase in the first two years of ownership. That was in the wholesale cost to dealers, their mark-up after the fact is admittedly out of your control.

Your initial reaction, consistently, over even the slightest criticism of your product is to fly off the handle and complain, whether it be to a tackle shop owner who returns plugs or forward complaints on behalf of a customer, or to a web host who doesn't "censor" criticism of your product. These people are not employed by you in a PR capacity, they owe you no obligation to sugar-coat anything or prevent customers and readers from offering their opinions. I will admit that the title I chose to initiate this discussion was a bit intemperate, but it was calculated to draw your attention, since I know you guys read the internet daily. By calling your attention to this problem, I was hoping your response might be, "Contact your reader and ask him to write to us and explain the problem in greater detail, or have him send it to us and we'll look into it". Even though I know in the past that has not been your approach, perhaps getting over that was part of the growth process and learning curve of running a consumer oriented business. Unfortunately, you chose to react--apparently, since I'm not privvy to what was said except to the extent others posted your communications to them--in typical fashion, flying off the handle and accusing those with legitimate criticism as being clueless, liars, full of bull, threatening charges of SLANDER when everyone with even basic knowledge of the law knows that any lawsut you brought would result in many dollars of damages assessed against you and your company in a countersuit, and showing yourself to the public in an extremely poor fashion.

[Jaiem]

John R (04-27-2001 12:08):
What about those "Beachmaster" plugs I saw at the Mass Bass show? I think they are out of Long Island or Jersey... Anyone know of them?

I've heard casters speak well of them but haven't seen or tried them myself.

I liked the Driftwood needles because while they were heavy enough to cast well they didn't sink like a rock. That let me work them slow over rocks. Hope they didn't go under.

[Bob Senior]

HELP!

Hey guys, how about a few of you, who have some experience with plugs, listing your top six performers, starting from the best and going down to #6, for stripers in New England. Gibbs' products seem to be most popular, but please include others like YoZuri, Bomber, and whatever you have had the best luck with for big fish later in the season.

I've always considered that plugs were made to catch fishermen, not fish, and have used jigs and various spoons and spinners, and flies of course, all my life. But I've heard some really good things here about the productivity of plugs, and even just bought a bunch of them (two Dannies and two pencil poppers) the other day, and want more for when the lunkers arrive in a few weeks.

BUT I don't know what to get!! And getting the wrong one is an $8 to $15 mistake.

[JohnR]

Well, I'm glad I wasn't holding my breath, but unfortunately, it appears that they have chosen not to respond publicly to this issue. This is an opportunity for them to resolve some issues with their customers. Hopefully, in the future, they will choose to do so in a kind and professional manner.

An offer was extended to me to visit their manufacturing facilities and I may do that at a later date if the offer is still open and they show a more open approach to their customers.

Thanks,

John