Something constructive

[NIB]

Very nice work as usual Geo.You are a great inspiration.I hope you keep it up..
I have a Question for ya.
Why did you decide to go with 2 belly hooks on the small swimmer instead of one.One hook allows you to go 3/0.With 2 your limited to maybe a 1/0 or Maybe 2/0 front 1/0 back.

[numbskull]

Originally Posted by NIB

Very nice work as usual Geo.You are a great inspiration.I hope you keep it up..
I have a Question for ya.
Why did you decide to go with 2 belly hooks on the small swimmer instead of one.One hook allows you to go 3/0.With 2 your limited to maybe a 1/0 or Maybe 2/0 front 1/0 back.

These will carry 1/0's. Not expecting anything massive on them....more of a "something to toss while walking the dog" kind of a plug .

I got a theory that danny/donny style surface swimmers balance better with two hooks and a central pivot point (ie weight). I also think the two belly hooks do a better job of hooking both fish that nudge the plug half heartedly and the ones that hit hard from the nose (I'm pretty sure the lip of the plug often deflects the fish off the front hook). I'm still undecided if I like compensating for the lack of a tail hook by using a small tail weight or not.....it tends to make the tail swing more once the plug gets moving but also require slightly more speed to keep it working. Plugs that use a surfster lip are different. BF's Prey, for example, has a great action with the one belly hook.

Subsurface I'm OK with one belly hook. One hook and a weight behind seems to give the plug more of a wag from the head as opposed to a pivot around the belly (which is also why surfsters do well in that setup). Interestingly, Sauerkraut (on those rare occasions when he can't fish his beloved snakes) will use needles with only a single belly hook and no tail hook (which goes to show how important balance actually is) and catches enough large fish that way to embarrass me and all my hard formed "theories".

[steelhead]

Virtually the same dimensions as Numbskull's.
I won't be walking a dog, so I guess that means I can catch big fish.

[numbskull]

Very nice.

For anyone else interested, these were the dimensions I used.....

".......I got it wrong. Mine are 5''long, 3/4" at the nose, 1 1/8" at the belly. 1'' to first hook, 3.5" to second. wt is at 2 5/8" (I don't recall how much....forgot to write it down) and a 1/2 size M&D small tail weight. Used AWC since I had it (but didn't particularly like it....would use pine next time). The lip is a small lefty low slot, which is placed a shade above midline. The unrigged epoxied plug weighs 1.5 oz. Have not fished it yet."

I think the weight was 5-6 grams.

[NIB]

Geo,Thanks for the breakdown.I hope folks realize how much information is in that post..Builders and non builders could use to gain so much by understanding the basic's on how plugs work.Then again it might be to much info for some..
Tony Spina at Lex used to tail weight a lot of his designs.They where dogs on our flat water.When you had a little wind or white water they would shine.He made quite a few and different little 2 hook designs. I used to add a belly weight to some of em to stabilize em.They used to be some of my favorite plugs..Hahn also makes a little swimmer.Mine are from the old runs..They too had the two hook design but he used a little cupped blade.with no weight if I remember right.They worked good when flat.
Them little plugs cast amazingly well especially when tail weighted.Your going to fool some good fish wit em.Whether or not you can land em on 1/0's will be the fun part.I can recall one about 25 lbs standing on his tail and spitting one back at me one day before sunrise..Hooks where chewed up like a pretzel..I enjoyed the show most of all.You catch thousands of fish ,the details all meld into one..I can still see that fish laughin at me..
Skippy uses them owners on his plugs not.They won't bend,they might pull out, they are heavier.Something to look into..

[numbskull]

I've got another "observation" I stumbled across yesterday. I always assumed that the less weight in a surface swimming plug, the easier it would swim and the slower you could work it. Wrong again. Turns out with those skinny donnys I made, they swim at a much slower retrieve with 14 grams in them they they do with 8 grams. What I think is happening is that when the plug floats higher, some of the force (ie retrieve speed) is used up overcoming it's buoyancy before the plug develops its action. Go too slow and the plug just skims the surface without working. The plug sitting deeper in the surface film can start working sooner. This also explains something that puzzled me for years. The best surface swimmer I ever had was a beat-up Lupo with oversized (3/0) belly trebles. It would waterlog on the first cast, but outfish anything else I owned by a ton. It now occurs to me that it must have been sitting much deeper than my other less beat up Beachmasters, and working at a slower speed. Not sure this is right, but something to try in any case.

[NIB]

Originally Posted by numbskull

I've got another "observation" I stumbled across yesterday. I always assumed that the less weight in a surface swimming plug, the easier it would swim and the slower you could work it. Wrong again. Turns out with those skinny donnys I made, they swim at a much slower retrieve with 14 grams in them they they do with 8 grams. What I think is happening is that when the plug floats higher, some of the force (ie retrieve speed) is used up overcoming it's buoyancy before the plug develops its action. Go too slow and the plug just skims the surface without working. The plug sitting deeper in the surface film can start working sooner. This also explains something that puzzled me for years. The best surface swimmer I ever had was a beat-up Lupo with oversized (3/0) belly trebles. It would waterlog on the first cast, but outfish anything else I owned by a ton. It now occurs to me that it must have been sitting much deeper than my other less beat up Beachmasters, and working at a slower speed. Not sure this is right, but something to try in any case.

Could be something to that.Tony never sealed his stuff really well.He dipped the whole finished plug.It was finish and sealer all in one.
When they got heavy I actually like em better..
Most of my designs are built with castabilty in mind.Even in my first runs.I would put some pretty big shots of lead in them.As I evolved I started making em fatter trying to compensate for the lead.They swam well but I was not as successful with em.Last spring I used one of my older large Danny types and was pretty happy with the results.This stemmed from you making that thing you made that I am trying to duplicate.
Not sure if it's the size or the action.I do know it is easy to take a big fat pc of wood and make it swim well.There is so much to work with you can make it do anything you want.Like a BM Cowboy for instance. There does appear to be something else to it.I really think have a preference for skinnier designs.
One of the things that hit me when I first saw a Musso plug in person is they are not as large in all dimensions as I imagined.Like he took Danny's dimensions and kept the sand paper on em too long....From my conversations with Donny castabilty is very important.You make this big fat thing and it tumbles and cast's like a wet rag.Even juiced up with lead.There is so much wind resistance.I have learned so much about fishing plugs from making em. I am still learning..

[steelhead]

I think there is merit to what you say there about weight. The best danny plugs I make for slow water or where I want subtle wiggle at Very Slow retrieve rates are a fat bodied style the are a comfortable 3 ounces with bwlly weights and hooks, etc. . I also think that body shape comes in to play. My theory is that the narrow/wide/narrow profile helps create current vortexes that quickly destablize the plug allowing it to move right away.

[Tagger]

Originally Posted by numbskull

I've got another "observation" I stumbled across yesterday. I always assumed that the less weight in a surface swimming plug, the easier it would swim and the slower you could work it. Wrong again. Turns out with those skinny donnys I made, they swim at a much slower retrieve with 14 grams in them they they do with 8 grams. What I think is happening is that when the plug floats higher, some of the force (ie retrieve speed) is used up overcoming it's buoyancy before the plug develops its action. Go too slow and the plug just skims the surface without working. The plug sitting deeper in the surface film can start working sooner. This also explains something that puzzled me for years. The best surface swimmer I ever had was a beat-up Lupo with oversized (3/0) belly trebles. It would waterlog on the first cast, but outfish anything else I owned by a ton. It now occurs to me that it must have been sitting much deeper than my other less beat up Beachmasters, and working at a slower speed. Not sure this is right, but something to try in any case.

That makes absolutely perfect sense to me .. sitting lower in the water = more resistance = less pull for more action ..That finding is worth 1 million pretty paint jobs .. Once again its how the plug sits at rest in the water. Thank you George .. You make my brain hurt but its worth it .. I'm totally sold on your finding ...

[Slipknot]

Originally Posted by numbskull

I've got another "observation" I stumbled across yesterday. I always assumed that the less weight in a surface swimming plug, the easier it would swim and the slower you could work it. Wrong again. Turns out with those skinny donnys I made, they swim at a much slower retrieve with 14 grams in them they they do with 8 grams. What I think is happening is that when the plug floats higher, some of the force (ie retrieve speed) is used up overcoming it's buoyancy before the plug develops its action. Go too slow and the plug just skims the surface without working. The plug sitting deeper in the surface film can start working sooner. This also explains something that puzzled me for years. The best surface swimmer I ever had was a beat-up Lupo with oversized (3/0) belly trebles. It would waterlog on the first cast, but outfish anything else I owned by a ton. It now occurs to me that it must have been sitting much deeper than my other less beat up Beachmasters, and working at a slower speed. Not sure this is right, but something to try in any case.

sounds right to me
great thread guys
it deserves to go in the favorites