Mass. weighs tougher protections for striped bass

[Mr. Sandman]

I am sorry you resent my generalisation about comm fishermen. I think it is fairly accurate. Having gone to many of the various public meetings when options were being discussed as what may happen during the problem days, I heard from many outspoken comm fishermen first hand in the public forums. They wanted to continue fishing commercially inspite of the drastic situation bass were in. They wanted to give up nothing!! And the state was appearing sympathetic. It wasn't until the government literally forced the closure that the DMF had no choice to close comm bass fishing in MA, and they were quick to re-open it to pre-closure levels as soon as they could.
More recently, when they wanted to move the MA comm limit from 50 to something lower like 10 fish/day the outcry was outrageous and it legislated to (only) 30. Where is the science in this? Just because a bunch of guys cry about it the DMF changes its recommendation?? This is a joke. They should not be listening to the fishermen who are soley acting to protect their selfish interest. They should set the proper rules for a healthy fishery and enforce fisherman to comply. Do what is right and the hell with weekend yahoos. If you don't like it , get a land job

This is what makes the DMF so laughable, they pat themselves on their own back for what a great job they did for saving the SB, yet THEY were part of the problem!! If they were actually managing the resources properly we would never have to endure such draconian action like a complete moratorium. Your right, I do critique the DMF and the main reason is because they are in bed with the commercial interest and are trying to squeeze every last drop of a resource of unknown size and health. They are not conservative enough IMO. I would like to err on the side of caution and never have to resort to such harsh and knee jerk regulations.
How come Comm R&R don't complain about the by-catch discard of SB by draggers? I bet if that catch was forced to be sold rather than dumped and come off the commercial quota the R&R bass guys would be screaming bloody murder that "these guys are taking our fish". But instead they get dumped overboard dead, unaccounted for and as long as it doesn't effect this weeks paycheck don't worry about it. Face it, Commercial SB fishermen really don't care about protecting much of anything.

[sokinwet]

Hey Sandman - As I said...seen your posts before...lots of the same old IMO's here. You know what they say about opinions. Quick question for you...how many more fish does it take to reach the lb. quota @ 50 per day as opposed to 30 per day? I assume your background is in marine fisheries or psychology as you seem to know everything about how fisheries should be managed and how everyone else thinks......or should be thinking. I'm pretty sure you don't have a degree in math.

And..I have a land job already thanks. As a matter of fact I have 2 jobs in the summer....you know "greedy recreational fisherman " as Mike T. calls us. Funny thing is I never would have got job #1 (land job) if I hadn't paid for school with job #2 (GRF)...wait... does that mean job #2 really is job #1?? Maybe I am a REAL COMMERCIAL FISHERMAN after all! Thank goodness...for a while there I thought I might be entering the wrong occupational code on my 1040 Sched. C when I'm paying my taxes on my GRF business income!

PS You know guys..I really tried to change. I had a PT job as a nail banger but someone started bitching about me taking food out of the mouth of the pro nail banger down the street.

[Crafty Angler]

This thread reminds me of a good barroom brawl and after 25 years in the business I've seen more than one New Bedford squaredance break out...

Now that the combatants have pretty much finished beating the Jehovah out of each other after Mike stepped in as bouncer, there are some obvious conclusions

To a man, there seems to be little disagreement that the inshore striped bass fishery is in trouble and I hear that opinion from a pretty broad range of veteran surfmen that I respect. These are men with 30, 40 and in some cases more than 50 years in the fishery, both recreationally and commercially, and there are few, if any, substitutes for that kind of historical perspective.

Ultimately, whether you like it or not, striped bass are a shared resource and Stripers Forever is attempting an exclusive resource grab for the recreational sector. Period.

If - and this is really the fly in the ointment - if the data gathered from recreational licensing goes as expected, I think the recreational side - of which I am a member - is going to be in denial for some time to come over the facts

No one is blameless. The regulations have to be tightened and both sides have to take a hit and take the pain - the alternative is going to be a moritorium which will serve no one user group's best interests

And since I don't have a dog in the fight financially on either side, I don't have to "be careful" - I don't run a charter operation, don't manufacture or sell striped bass plugs, tackle, waders, bags, titanium pliers, books, flip-flops or any of the other accoutrements that mark your standing as a seasoned and knowledgeable sharpie

Nor do I have a commercial license, although I have many friends who do and that is their right regarding a shared resource

Money, as we all know, is at the root of all evil - although at this point in my life I've come to realize that ego and a deep-seated need for external validation is a pretty frigging close second

[Back Beach]

I just received my commercial license renewal in the mail yesterday. Given there's 3700 or so licenses issued at $ 65 each it amounts to roughly 240K in revenue for the state. I don't see them stopping commercial sale of bass for 2010 at this point given the impending winfall.I think if the gamefish bill gets passed it wouldn't be implemented until 2011 at least.

Just a thought from one of the 3600 or so "recrimercial" fisherman in Mass.

[CowHunter]

Mine is $470.00... Moving to Mass when I retire!

[Back Beach]

Originally Posted by CowHunter

Mine is $470.00... Moving to Mass when I retire!

Why so much? I thought the out of state was like $150?

[CowHunter]

Out of State Boat, Charter, Striped bass, Seabass, Scup endorsements.... Mass Raises more than people think on license fees...

[Back Beach]

Originally Posted by CowHunter

Mass Raises more than people think on license fees...

In keeping with the context of this thread its probably 240K or so just for striped bass endorsements. Licensing revenue overall would obviously have to be substantially higher.

[CowHunter]

Yes it is true, but some people only get a license for the striped bass endorsement ONLY, fees being much higher for boat...

[Saltheart]

What I think would help is to make it mandatory to show your sales slip from the year before in order to get a license again the next year. I bet a big percent of the licenses in MA go to people who just pay the fee so they can skirt the bag limits. They take all the fish a com license allows but sell zero. This is just paying a fee to get around the bag limit laws. People do it for taug and fluke as well as stripers. It should be a regulation something like if you had a license last year , you cannot get a renewal ubnless you can prove you sold more than x amount of fish the year before.

There are two issues here. One , they get to skirt the bag limits for a price. Two , the fish they take are not counted in the quota because nobody knows they are taking them.

I think fixing that problem and forcing bicatch to be sold and counted would really go a long way to reducing the take pumping health into the fishery.

[MAKAI]

A quick search of mass.
2008 numbers
3599 permits sold
1207 reported landing even one fish
102 reported landing at least 3000 pounds

[MakoMike]

Originally Posted by CowHunter

Trapperpierre, You are correct Charter / Guide / Headboats do not have their catch reported .

Sorry, that is B.S. every charter boat that holds federal licenses has to report every trip on a Vessel trip report form no matter where they have been fishing and no matter what species they have been fishing for. I'd wager that somewhere around 99% of all charter/party boats hold federal licenses, so the vast majority of the striped bass catch by charter/party boats is being reported.

[CowHunter]

Makomike, sorry bud but you are wrong... Not all states require guides / charter boats need to report. Not a single captain I know reports in nj and I have an endorsement in mass that does not require a striped bass catch report. New York for instance does...
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[sokinwet]

Although I don't doubt that "some" will get the permit just to take more fish, I question why someone would do that (other than having a whole flock of mouths to feed). If you're just fishing to fill the freezer, you're limiting your catch to 34"+ fish....keep one under 34" and you're now fishing as a rec. I think the more likely thing is that many of the "0" reports come from people who have a licence because they fish in someone elses boat who does not have a boat permit. No permit...no ride.

[Back Beach]

Originally Posted by sokinwet

I think the more likely thing is that many of the "0" reports come from people who have a licence because they fish in someone elses boat who does not have a boat permit. No permit...no ride.

Not sure it still works that way. I think you get a vessel permit now and it covers everyone on board and limits the catch to 30 per boat.
In previous years you needed everyone on the vessel to have a license, but I believe each license holder could take a full limit of fish.

Lots of zeros come from guys like me who get the license "just in case" or keep renewing the license so as to not have it permanently revoked. I've heard the argument that folks get the license just to be able to keep more fish to eat, but this has to be very minimal.

[Back Beach]

Originally Posted by CowHunter

Makomike, sorry bud but you are wrong... Not all states require guides / charter boats need to report. Not a single captain I know reports in nj and I have an endorsement in mass that does not require a striped bass catch report. New York for instance does...
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

The new Mass commercial regs for 2010 indicate all vessels will need to submit trip level reporting either by mail or electronically. Not sure about other states or charter ops though.
This may help alleviate some of the over runs in the quota as there will be a "real time" tally going versus waiting for the fish houses to submit thier data weekly or longer.

[TheSpecialist]

Originally Posted by MAKAI

A quick search of mass.
2008 numbers
3599 permits sold
1207 reported landing even one fish
102 reported landing at least 3000 pounds

Those are interesting numbers.

[Back Beach]

Originally Posted by TheSpecialist

Those are interesting numbers.

Those statistics helped spawn the "Recrimercial" moniker, I'm sure.

[sokinwet]

BB - You may be right on the individual permit; I know there were some changes a couple of yrs. back. In the past my dad, bro and I had to get 3 permits to fish the same boat but the limit was not x3. $130 for my boat permit and endorsements.

I think the new trip level reporting is a very positive change for both the fishermen and the number crunchers. Sure will make the "paperwork" a lot easier and provide more realistic data on the "sub-legal" released category; which in my case is usually an estimate once I run out fingers & toes to count with. ;-) Hey Sandman..you didn't answer my "math" question...just to be fair I guess you're allowed to use your fingers and toes too.

[Saltheart]

Originally Posted by MAKAI

A quick search of mass.
2008 numbers
3599 permits sold
1207 reported landing even one fish
102 reported landing at least 3000 pounds

That is just about in agreement with the people I know who have commercial licenses. I would say it 2 to 1 the people who just keep everything vs the people who actually sell fish with their license. From what I hear its the Taug and Fluke that make it worth while but they do the same with stripers if the occasion rises.

[MAKAI]

Originally Posted by Back Beach

Those statistics helped spawn the "Recrimercial" moniker, I'm sure.

First time I saw it.
T. W is interesting, thanks.

[JohnR]

Kind of sad that we are more or less in the same argument and the same fisheries mess we were in ten years ago.

Hmmm, progress

[sokinwet]

"I would say it 2 to 1 the people who just keep everything vs the people who actually sell fish with their license"

I for one would have no problem with those who check "DNF" on their catch reports for over 1 year being required to explain the circumstances prior to renewal.

Just curious guys...what would you say is the ratio or C&R bass fishermen to fisherman who put their 2 in the box whenever they can?

[MAKAI]

Originally Posted by sokinwet

"I would say it 2 to 1 the people who just keep everything vs the people who actually sell fish with their license"

I for one would have no problem with those who check "DNF" on their catch reports for over 1 year being required to explain the circumstances prior to renewal.

Just curious guys...what would you say is the ratio or C&R bass fishermen to fisherman who put their 2 in the box whenever they can?

In my group of twenty or so people I fish with only one always keeps a deuce.
95% of everything legal from the rest of us goes back.

[Saltheart]

Almost nobody I fish with keeps 2 on any given day. I would say 20% keep 1 every few weeks.These guys usually have 5 or 6 mouths to feed and do it to save money on food. 20% keep 1 maybe 2 or 3 times a season. These guys like to have it now and then but do not freeze it and only want it about 2 or 3 times a season.60% put everything back unless they have a very rare request from someone who wants to try striper.
95% of my own caught fish go back in to be caught another day.

[inTHERAPY]

Originally Posted by sokinwet

"I would say it 2 to 1 the people who just keep everything vs the people who actually sell fish with their license"

I for one would have no problem with those who check "DNF" on their catch reports for over 1 year being required to explain the circumstances prior to renewal.

Just curious guys...what would you say is the ratio or C&R bass fishermen to fisherman who put their 2 in the box whenever they can?

I will sell everything I catch if a legal market is open for them. As far as recreationally, I will keep maybe 1 a week, or a bleeder.
In the number of marinas I've been in, during the last 7 years, I've talked with a lot of fishermen. A large majority of which would consider a 30 # fish as a monster and 5 fish in a day as a awesome day. Good for them. These people always return to the docks with whatever stripers they catch. These are the anglers i would say make up the vast majority of the fishing community.
The guys and gals who participate on this site are not these anglers. I do not think what "we" do with fish is the norm.
If you have not read Amendment 6, asmfc, do so. You can find quite a bit of info at the asmfc site.

[numbskull]

The state has this wrong. What they need is a $4 tax on each bunker and eel sold..........then the bass would be fine.

[CowHunter]

Saltheart, Im on the other end, most everybody I know keeps their fish.... Question for you, How many Rec Guys up and down the coast keep their catch and sell fish black market to cover expenses and so on???
Some on this board put Charter Captains in the same boat as Commercial Fisherman.... I strongly disagree with this. Are charter captains in Mass "Contributing" to the 1.1 million Pounds of commercial Allocation? Absolutely not. They do not in any State. As a charter captain I can do 1, 2 or 3 trips a day if I can book em. 7 days a week if I can. I can take the boat limit over and over and despite what MakoMike says you dont have to report your catch in MOST states, (There are other areas besides the SW corner of Block where Stripers Live)....MakoMike might not like this but as a charter captain, Im saying I kill way to many fish and I feel strongly that MANY Other do to. It is what the law allows though...They dont shut down the charter captains, or rec guys when Their quota is filled, (Cause there really isnt one). What if Charter Captains had a quoat? What if Rec Guys have a quota? Shut them down like they do commercials when its hit? Even on the reporting system that exists in most states, you wont get "rewarded" if you send a catch report in so its easy to get lazy and fudge inacurrate numbers. Commercials get paid for every pound they bring in and so it is tallied and despite what is said by stripersforever it is reported. You dont have rec guys bringing their catch in to tackleshops or anywhere else to get wieghed and accounted for. In NJ you have to pay for a bonus tag, you dont get "Rewarde" or anything when you send the tag in, so in return guys will use one tag to catch an extra 5, 10, 20 fish, (Some More). I wonder what the 321K quota really is. Stripersforever should be putting thier energy to putting together a more accurate reporting system on fish killed. Not worry about catching 80 fish or so until your arm are tired. does this make Sense to ANYONE???? I feel like nobody else sees any of this but me??? Despite what SANDMAN may think I really want whats best for the fishery as a whole, (I Even want sandman to make more money on his Tide logs!). I would have no problem with one fish at 36" from state to state as a Charter Captain. My business would not suffer one bit. Now if it was a gamefish only It would suffer, so would alot of the businesses up and down the coast. Alot of people do fish for Meat, and a large Majority do not understand catch and release and never will...I find no better example than the Chesapeake bay, when they shut it down, its a ghost town...

[CowHunter]

Ill go back to the NJ Bonus Tag... The State doesnt care about anything except collecting the $2 bucks a fish. They rely on anglers sending in the tags and buying another one for every single fish they catch. As I said it is a joke, (The gift that keeps on giving). I really truly believe that the number of fish killed would way exceed the NJ Commercial quota, (It is what it is - Commercial quota). I think it would be a staggering number, more than 2, 3 times the quota.... But agian thats myopinion and it dont mean %$%$%$%$ because I dont have any scientific data to back it, (Niether does the State)....

Stripersforever does have NJ as a little green state on their website where no commercial quota exists...

[numbskull]

Originally Posted by CowHunter

Saltheart, Im on the other end, most everybody I know keeps their fish.... Question for you, How many Rec Guys up and down the coast keep their catch and sell fish black market to cover expenses and so on???
Some on this board put Charter Captains in the same boat as Commercial Fisherman.... I strongly disagree with this. Are charter captains in Mass "Contributing" to the 1.1 million Pounds of commercial Allocation? Absolutely not. They do not in any State. As a charter captain I can do 1, 2 or 3 trips a day if I can book em. 7 days a week if I can. I can take the boat limit over and over and despite what MakoMike says you dont have to report your catch in MOST states, (There are other areas besides the SW corner of Block where Stripers Live)....MakoMike might not like this but as a charter captain, Im saying I kill way to many fish and I feel strongly that MANY Other do to. It is what the law allows though...They dont shut down the charter captains, or rec guys when Their quota is filled, (Cause there really isnt one). What if Charter Captains had a quoat? What if Rec Guys have a quota? Shut them down like they do commercials when its hit? Even on the reporting system that exists in most states, you wont get "rewarded" if you send a catch report in so its easy to get lazy and fudge inacurrate numbers. Commercials get paid for every pound they bring in and so it is tallied and despite what is said by stripersforever it is reported. You dont have rec guys bringing their catch in to tackleshops or anywhere else to get wieghed and accounted for. In NJ you have to pay for a bonus tag, you dont get "Rewarde" or anything when you send the tag in, so in return guys will use one tag to catch an extra 5, 10, 20 fish, (Some More). I wonder what the 321K quota really is. Stripersforever should be putting thier energy to putting together a more accurate reporting system on fish killed. Not worry about catching 80 fish or so until your arm are tired. does this make Sense to ANYONE???? I feel like nobody else sees any of this but me??? Despite what SANDMAN may think I really want whats best for the fishery as a whole, (I Even want sandman to make more money on his Tide logs!). I would have no problem with one fish at 36" from state to state as a Charter Captain. My business would not suffer one bit. Now if it was a gamefish only It would suffer, so would alot of the businesses up and down the coast. Alot of people do fish for Meat, and a large Majority do not understand catch and release and never will...I find no better example than the Chesapeake bay, when they shut it down, its a ghost town...

These are good and fair points.