Thoughts On Don't Ask Don't Tell?

[scottw]

I heard this argument yesterday, what if the gay guy/gal refuses to take the hill because he/she thinks they're singled out for swiss cheese duty simply because they're gay.....but anyone could make the same case for virtually anything...."you're sending ME because I'm the only white, black, hispanic, married, single, left-handed, Jewish soldier in the platoon"....not sure that really holds up but if you "don't ask don't tell"...then.....at least one minority would be tougher to single out for swiss cheese duty

btw, I know plenty of very happy gay people...also know some that had a tough time growing up and are resentful for the way that they've been treated as a result of being gay, but this is not something that is unique to being gay....I knew a combat pilot who was gay and happy and very successful....

[american spirit]

does that stuff really come up when your in basic training or under fire in the field. seems like it shouldn't be a big deal. i mean, all our armed forces are out there doing a job, not talking about their personal lives. maybe the military is filled with homophobes, i don't know. pretty lame stuff....if someone can do the job there should be no problem regardless of their background.

[scottw]

btw.....got a call from someone heading up 24 out of Fall River this morning and they were in awe of the dozens and dozens of State Troopers streaking south and every overpass filled with fire engines and ambulances waiting to salute the return of the body of PFC Ethan Goncalo of Fall River......gives you a chill...very sad that he is gone and very good to see the community displaying such enormous respect..

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by american spirit

does that stuff really come up when your in basic training or under fire in the field. seems like it shouldn't be a big deal. i mean, all our armed forces are out there doing a job, not talking about their personal lives. maybe the military is filled with homophobes, i don't know. pretty lame stuff....if someone can do the job there should be no problem regardless of their background.

"all our armed forces are out there doing a job, not talking about their personal lives"

I couldn't disagree more. In the service, I got to know my boys better, in a shorter period of time, then anyone else I ever met. You get to know each other in a very deep way.

"does that stuff really come up when your in basic training or under fire in the field"

Yes it does. I did have first-hand knowledge of an officer who had some kind of relationship with the wife of a guy under his command. As a result, the officer had no moral authority whatsoever to order that guy into harm's way (because maybe the officer wanted to get the guy killed so he could be with his wife), and it basically ended the officer's career as a combat commander, because none of his men respected his authority to give them dangerous orders. It's hard to explain, the fact that nothing works unless everyone has absolute, 100% confidence in the orders you get from above. One chink in that armor, and it falls apart.

"if someone can do the job there should be no problem"

I agree 100% with that. I just think that when sexuality is brought into this unique situation of combat, one's ability to "do their job" is potentially severely compromised.

[scottw]

[QUOTE=Jim in CT;
"I agree 100% with that. I just think that when sexuality is brought into this unique situation of combat, one's ability to "do their job" is potentially severely compromised.[/QUOTE]

as much as gays may suffer with a certain stereotype and how it may translate to performance military combat in many minds..... the vast majority of us forming opinions on this have absolutely no idea what it is like to actually be in combat...I'm trying to understand exactly how, in combat, would someone's sexual orientation affect their job or ability to do their job, I'm not talking about the affair between the superior and subordinate, just...soldier open about the fact that he's gay(we're generally talking about men since we're talking combat) and how would that affect the situation of combat...I'm just curious, not trying to be a wise guy...I could see that in a situation where you are dealing with the jacked up pack killer mentality needed to go out and do what these guys do, it might be very difficult for an openly gay soldier to fit in, be welcomed and earn the confidence of his peers depending on the individual and various biases that might exist and if you are infact forcing a social experiment and demanding acceptance and punishing for intolerance his peers, it could potentially be a very bad situation

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by scottw

as much as gays may suffer with a certain stereotype and how it may translate to performance military combat in many minds..... the vast majority of us forming opinions on this have absolutely no idea what it is like to actually be in combat...I'm trying to understand exactly how, in combat, would someone's sexual orientation affect their job or ability to do their job, I'm not talking about the affair between the superior and subordinate, just...soldier open about the fact that he's gay(we're generally talking about men since we're talking combat) and how would that affect the situation of combat...I'm just curious, not trying to be a wise guy...I could see that in a situation where you are dealing with the jacked up pack killer mentality needed to go out and do what these guys do, it might be very difficult for an openly gay soldier to fit in, be welcomed and earn the confidence of his peers depending on the individual and various biases that might exist and if you are infact forcing a social experiment and demanding acceptance and punishing for intolerance his peers, it could potentially be a very bad situation

I have no doubt that gays can admirably perform just about any task expected from a combat serviceman. I am 100% confident in that conclusion, and i have never heard any rational person suggest otherwise.

And if I was in combat, for-real combat, you can bet that no one would care about the sexual orientation of the guy watching his back.

And while I have no direct experience with gays in the military, I can forsee problems with morale, spirit, and confidence, based on the hypothetical, but not outlandish, scenarios I posted earlier.

There are other things like logistics. Because while I have no problem with homosexuals, I wouldn't want to shower or bunk with them, just as I would be opposed to men and women bathing and bunking together.

I'm very curious to see how this goes, and I hope my concerns prove to be groundless.

[Fly Rod]

Originally Posted by scottw

...I'm trying to understand exactly how, in combat, would someone's sexual orientation affect their job or ability to do their job,

Lets use the case of Ted Rubin a Medal of Honor recipient.(not gay)

His sargent was anti- Semite, Rubin is Jewish, he was a holocaust survivor, joined the U S military and fought in Korea. The sargent hated Jews and always gave Rubin dangeous asignments hoping he would be killed. The company was ordered to retreat and the sargent ordered only Rubin to stay behind and hold off the enemy, Rubin held off hundreds of the enemy and was finally wounded and taken prisoner.
Rubin was repeatedly nominated for various medals and awards, but was overlooked because of anti-Semitism by a superior: according to the Washington Post, "in affidavits filed in support of Rubin's nomination, fellow soldiers said their sergeant was an anti-Semite who gave Rubin dangerous assignments in hopes of getting him killed."

Ted Rubin was finally given the Medal of Honor in 2005


My point is that a anti-gay superior can put a gay military person in harms way.