Unions stealing "occupy bostons" thunder

[Piscator]

Originally Posted by TheSpecialist

If Verizon cuts the benefits that so many think are too good, do you think that you as a consumer will reap some savings off your monthly bill? If you think that keep dreaming....

I know you mention Verzion to make a point but have you ever had a Verizon guy come to your house? I can honestly say that there was 1 guy that actually was good out of probably 10 I've had come over. The others were the laziest "I'm beating the system" types of guys I've ever met. I have friends that used to work for Verizon, believe me the stories are insane. Guys getting all over other guys that have more than 4 completes in a day etc, etc. They are purposely underperforming so expectations aren't too high.

To follow up to your point, if a company like Verizon continues to increase benefits the consumer will bear the additional cost as an increase in their bill. In a free market, that is where competition steps in .

[TheSpecialist]

Originally Posted by Piscator

I know you mention Verzion to make a point but have you ever had a Verizon guy come to your house? I can honestly say that there was 1 guy that actually was good out of probably 10 I've had come over. The others were the laziest "I'm beating the system" types of guys I've ever met. I have friends that used to work for Verizon, believe me the stories are insane. Guys getting all over other guys that have more than 4 completes in a day etc, etc. They are purposely underperforming so expectations aren't too high.

To follow up to your point, if a company like Verizon continues to increase benefits the consumer will bear the additional cost as an increase in their bill. In a free market, that is where competition steps in .

First I will say I am one of those guys. Second work is like a marathon some guys are extremely fast, but make many errors, others are very slow and make very few errors, then there are alot of guys in between. When I started 15 years ago a guy had to do 2- 2.5 repairs a day. Then it was raised every year. The number is not so much for us as much as it is to keep from paying managers their yearly bonuses for not making their quota. When you make the number they say, hmm he made it we need to raise the bar. At what point does the bar stop being raised? Seriously there is way more to doing a job than most people think, like not climbing a pole in front of your house until you inspect that pole, and the ones on each side. This alone takes approximately 10-15 minutes per pole. Multiply that by the number of climbs it takes for a guy working off of a ladder all day and you start to see some discrepancy between ladder guys, and bucket truck guys. But we all have the same target number. So my friend it is not as simple as you make it seem.

As your second point Verizon is not increasing prices to pay more for us, we are pretty much looking to keep what we have. They will not however lower your bill if we settle for less. In the free market the consumer is going to set the price, right now Verizon is beating the pants off of the competition when it comes to that. FWIw they made in the neighborhood of 16 Billion last year and because of tax loopholes paid very little in income tax.

[Piscator]

Originally Posted by TheSpecialist

First I will say I am one of those guys.

Maybe you were the 1 out of 10 that came to my house that was good

Originally Posted by TheSpecialist

Second work is like a marathon some guys are extremely fast, but make many errors, others are very slow and make very few errors, then there are alot of guys in between.

I could be wrong but my feeling is the Union as a whole takes care of the guys that are average or subpar but not much for the great ones.

Originally Posted by TheSpecialist

When I started 15 years ago a guy had to do 2- 2.5 repairs a day. Then it was raised every year. The number is not so much for us as much as it is to keep from paying managers their yearly bonuses for not making their quota.

I’m in sales and I have to produce each year and build off the year before. If I don’t they will be looking for someone to replace me. It not only makes me work harder and try to achieve more, but it also gives me satisfaction in reaching a new goals.

Originally Posted by TheSpecialist

When you make the number they say, hmm he made it we need to raise the bar. At what point does the bar stop being raised? Seriously there is way more to doing a job than most people think, like not climbing a pole in front of your house until you inspect that pole, and the ones on each side. This alone takes approximately 10-15 minutes per pole. Multiply that by the number of climbs it takes for a guy working off of a ladder all day and you start to see some discrepancy between ladder guys, and bucket truck guys. But we all have the same target number. So my friend it is not as simple as you make it seem.

Great point, I totally agree that it’s not apples to apples (my buddy’s were more in the city and didn’t have to deal with poles too much). But if productivity stays the same and does not increase then it would be hard to justify future raises etc. Maybe the system to evaluate needs to be changed so that guys aren’t hitting say 4 completes before lunch and expected to shut down for the day by their peers.

Originally Posted by TheSpecialist

As your second point Verizon is not increasing prices to pay more for us, we are pretty much looking to keep what we have. They will not however lower your bill if we settle for less. In the free market the consumer is going to set the price, right now Verizon is beating the pants off of the competition when it comes to that. FWIw they made in the neighborhood of 16 Billion last year and because of tax loopholes paid very little in income tax.

They is not only the managers and Verizon executives, “they” are the shareholders. Verizon has a very high stock dividend yield and many investors (some probably guys on this site) are the “they” sharing in the profits via stocks, dividends, 401K etc.

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by Piscator

I could be wrong but my feeling is the Union as a whole takes care of the guys that are average or subpar but not much for the great ones.

*THIS* is my biggest issue with Unions and is the source of most trouble when dealing with them.

Unions result in no incentive to excel.

Whether it is a teacher's union, Verizon union, Teamsters or any other Local union - the guys who excel are reprimanded (or worse) by their coworkers. If one guy works too hard or puts in too much effort, it makes the lazy bum in the other truck look bad. There's also no incentive to excel because most union contracts provide guidelines of the work required. The union employees are only obligated to do the minimum required work and then that's it.

I know a number of union truck drivers. They get more leisure reading done during a work-week than I do in a year. Why? Because when they are running ahead of their minimum schedule, they sit at the loading dock and kill time as opposed to calling in for another load.

[TheSpecialist]

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

*THIS* is my biggest issue with Unions and is the source of most trouble when dealing with them.

Unions result in no incentive to excel.

Whether it is a teacher's union, Verizon union, Teamsters or any other Local union - the guys who excel are reprimanded (or worse) by their coworkers. If one guy works too hard or puts in too much effort, it makes the lazy bum in the other truck look bad. There's also no incentive to excel because most union contracts provide guidelines of the work required. The union employees are only obligated to do the minimum required work and then that's it.

I know a number of union truck drivers. They get more leisure reading done during a work-week than I do in a year. Why? Because when they are running ahead of their minimum schedule, they sit at the loading dock and kill time as opposed to calling in for another load.

Let pose this question. In school, elementary through college, would you agree that some people (5% maybe) are at the top of the class, some (15% maybe ) are at the bottom of the class, and everyone else is pretty much considered average? Also some people reach that upper percentile, and average percentile based on a grading curve.

Well unfortunately businesses don't work that way. They grade everyone the same no matter what. We always help the slower guys when our work is done , so that the job gets done here. It doesn't matter if I am a little faster or slower to my coworkers. It is the guys that work so fast that they do not follow all safety practices, and someone gets hurt or worse killed. We have had numerous injuries and deaths in the last 5 years from that. Why shouldn't there be a level playing field?

Let me pose this ? Should a business owner who hires non resident or non citizens, be allowed to work the same projects as legitimate businesses that follow the hiring rules?

Not every union works the same, trade unions are way different than public sector unions, which are way different than union shops at a business. There are bad apples everywhere. Show me a family that can own a home or even rent one here in the north east on a salary of $12.00 an hour.

There is no use in explaining it though, cause if you are against ii, you are against it.

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by TheSpecialist

Let pose this question. In school, elementary through college, would you agree that some people (5% maybe) are at the top of the class, some (15% maybe ) are at the bottom of the class, and everyone else is pretty much considered average? Also some people reach that upper percentile, and average percentile based on a grading curve.

Well unfortunately businesses don't work that way. They grade everyone the same no matter what. We always help the slower guys when our work is done , so that the job gets done here. It doesn't matter if I am a little faster or slower to my coworkers. It is the guys that work so fast that they do not follow all safety practices, and someone gets hurt or worse killed. We have had numerous injuries and deaths in the last 5 years from that. Why shouldn't there be a level playing field?

You are using a union working environment to describe every working environment. If every business operated with a union, then yeah, the way you described it is how jobs get done. But the reason for that is because unions have collectively decided what baseline performance is required. Then, the lazy guys that are slow or suck at their job gets to coast by as long as they do the minimum amount of work. This results in the guys who work faster, having to pick up there slack.

However, in a non-union business, those guys that consistently under-perform and are always behind are fired. Then, they workers like yourself that are good at your job and consistently perform well are promoted or given a performance-weighted raise.

There shouldn't be a level playing field because the bum down the hall that does the minimum amount of work necessary to collect his pension in 25 years shouldn't get paid the same (or with the same scheduled raises) as a work who does a consistently good job and tries to go above and beyond do perform well.

I run a business that runs on the non-union method and I know a lot of other non-union businesses that run the non-union method.

Let me pose this ? Should a business owner who hires non resident or non citizens, be allowed to work the same projects as legitimate businesses that follow the hiring rules?

Nope, but a business doesn't have to be union in order to assure quality, American workers.

Not every union works the same, trade unions are way different than public sector unions, which are way different than union shops at a business. There are bad apples everywhere. Show me a family that can own a home or even rent one here in the north east on a salary of $12.00 an hour.

Businesses aren't here to make sure Dad gets paid enough so that Mom and the kids can stay home and live in their 3 bedroom house. Long gone are the days of a single working parent and a stay-at-home mom being the norm.

There is no use in explaining it though, cause if you are against ii, you are against it.

Unions have an "Us vs.Them" mentality when dealing with employers. Your posts are pretty consistent with sticking to the cliche Union talking points. Unions aren't the only guilty party, big business definitely is to blame as well. But don't try telling me that Unions are the innocent little guy in all of this.

[TheSpecialist]

The union I work for doesn't dictate baseline performance, the companies work practices do.

The problem in America is everyone wants to be rich, no one wants to be satisfied end of story.