Barack must be desperate for voters...

[spence]

Originally Posted by fishbones

You're not serious, are you? He'd need the miracle of all miracles to present an effective presidency.

Remember, his effectiveness will be judged relative to the challenges he's faced and the anticipated effectiveness of his challenger.

A tanking economy, two wars, 10 natural disasters etc...hell, this would have been tough first term for anyone.

The fact that we didn't slip into a depression, that we're exiting Iraq, that we've killed a heck of a lot of terrorists including OBL, expanded health care coverage, a lot of positive financial and military reforms, restrictions on lobbyists, incentives for small businesses etc...

There's a lot to sell the independent voter on. Obama's bigger worry should be that the left (and younger voters) feel he has led from the middle and might not mobilize like they did in 2008. But, it's looking like the GOP might have a similar problem getting the religious right to the polls as well.

In the end I think it's going to be a very tight race. Obama is a good debater and the debates will probably decide the election.

-spence

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

Remember, his effectiveness will be judged relative to the challenges he's faced and the anticipated effectiveness of his challenger.

A tanking economy, two wars, 10 natural disasters etc...hell, this would have been tough first term for anyone.

The fact that we didn't slip into a depression, that we're exiting Iraq, that we've killed a heck of a lot of terrorists including OBL, expanded health care coverage, a lot of positive financial and military reforms, restrictions on lobbyists, incentives for small businesses etc...

There's a lot to sell the independent voter on. Obama's bigger worry should be that the left (and younger voters) feel he has led from the middle and might not mobilize like they did in 2008. But, it's looking like the GOP might have a similar problem getting the religious right to the polls as well.

In the end I think it's going to be a very tight race. Obama is a good debater and the debates will probably decide the election.

-spence

"The fact that we didn't slip into a depression"

You're giving Obama credit for something that is literally impossoble to prove. His explosion of the debt may yet push us into that depression, but you don't care about that...

"we're exiting Iraq"

According to the strategy put in place by the previous administration...

"we've killed a heck of a lot of terrorists including OBL"

Thanks to the programs put in place by the previous administration...

"Obama is a good debater and the debates will probably decide the election."

I pray you are right,particularly if Gingrich is the nominee. Obama is a horrible debater, he's good at deflecting attention away from his actual record, and instead focusing on some mythical boogeyman, which in 2012 will be successful white people. That works against a poodle like John McCain, who was too afraid of being called a racist to attack Obama in a debate. An angry pitbull like Newt will have no such concerns, and it will show loud and clear.

[spence]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

You're giving Obama credit for something that is literally impossoble to prove. His explosion of the debt may yet push us into that depression, but you don't care about that...

Well, the CBO certainly seemed to think the stimulus has a positive impact. If Bush gets to take credit for keeping Americans safe post 9/11 you'd think Obama would get credit for keeping us out of a depression (and no attacks also :hihi)

According to the strategy put in place by the previous administration...

Thanks to the programs put in place by the previous administration...

If Obama was the idiot you claim he had plenty of chances to screw up the timeline for an Iraq withdrawal. As for terrorism, Obama certainly wasn't following the Bush playbook.

An angry pitbull like Newt will have no such concerns, and it will show loud and clear.

Yep, at the voting booth. People don't want to elect an angry pit bull president.

-spence

[scottw]

Originally Posted by spence

l. As for terrorism, Obama certainly wasn't following the Bush playbook.

-spence

ThinkProgress Sept. 2011

Ex-CIA Lawyer: Obama Has Changed ‘Virtually Nothing’ From Bush’s Counter-Terror Policies | The American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) released a report yesterday on the erosion of civil liberties in the post-9/11 era, which concluded that the Obama administration has continued many of the controversial policies of the Bush administration. Covering the ACLU report, the progressive radio show Democracy Now! interviewed former top Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) lawyer John Rizzo. The Obama administration had changed “virtually nothing with respect to existing CIA programs and operations,” Rizzo said. “Authorities were continued that were originally granted by President Bush beginning shortly after 9/11. Those were all picked up, reviewed and endorsed by the Obama administration.”

Progressive News Daily
August 26, 2011
Obama’s Illegal Assaults
How once-controversial ‘war on terror’ tactics became the new normal

BY Glenn Greenwald

Barack Obama has continued virtually all of George W. Bush and #^&#^&#^&#^& Cheney’s once-controversial terrorism and civil liberties policies, a fact now recognized across the political spectrum. Even the right wing acknowledges these policies have continued under the Obama presidency, which is interesting, because for decades Republicans have made political hay by accusing Democrats of being weak on national security (or “soft on terrorism” in this age of terror).

This premise that the Obama administration has reversed the terror policies is wrong. The new administration has copied most of the Bush program, has expanded some of it and has narrowed only a bit. All of the Obama changes have been at the level of packaging, argumentation, symbol and rhetoric. -Jack Goldsmith

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

Well, the CBO certainly seemed to think the stimulus has a positive impact. If Bush gets to take credit for keeping Americans safe post 9/11 you'd think Obama would get credit for keeping us out of a depression (and no attacks also :hihi)


If Obama was the idiot you claim he had plenty of chances to screw up the timeline for an Iraq withdrawal. As for terrorism, Obama certainly wasn't following the Bush playbook.


Yep, at the voting booth. People don't want to elect an angry pit bull president.

-spence

" If Bush gets to take credit for keeping Americans safe post 9/11 you'd think Obama would get credit for keeping us out of a depression "

Spence, what color is the sky in the world you live in? It is irrefutable fact that Al Queda did not successfully attack us after 09/11, as long as Bush was in power. You assertion that Obama similarly "saved" the economy is literally impossible to prove.

" and no attacks also"

Again, I have to question your grip of reality. ever hear of Ft Hood? And the bomber on the Detroit plane only failed because he was incompetent.

"As for terrorism, Obama certainly wasn't following the Bush playbook."

No? Really? When did Guantanimo Bay get shut down? when did the Patriot Act get repealed? When did Obama stop using predator drones to kill terrorists? I give Obama a fair amount of credit on the terrorism front, and all of his successes, from where I sit, are because he largely left the Bush administration's policies work as intended. The one change Obama made was to to try and make other nations like us more. What has that gotten us? ZIP.

"People don't want to elect an angry pit bull president."

You said the debates would decide. You said that, not me.

[spence]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

Spence, what color is the sky in the world you live in? It is irrefutable fact that Al Queda did not successfully attack us after 09/11, as long as Bush was in power. You assertion that Obama similarly "saved" the economy is literally impossible to prove.

How do you know how many times they may have tried? How do you know we weren't headed to a depression?

The reality is, who's in charge often gets credit or blame. But like people understand Bush wasn't responsible for 9/11 the people alo know Obama inherited a mess of an economy. While this is going to drag on his campaign, Republican efforts to label it the "Obama Recession" will likely fail. Obama though has to be able to articulate the value of his policies better than he has.

Again, I have to question your grip of reality. ever hear of Ft Hood? And the bomber on the Detroit plane only failed because he was incompetent.

Clearly the intent of my comment was about Americans being harmed domestically due to a successful terror attack, otherwise I would have noted Richard Ried...

The Ft Hood shooting while tragic wasn't classified as an act of terrorism. The investigation seems to have shown that Hassan acted alone and had no terrorist links to an outside group. More likely his mental health issues and a reluctance to deploy sent him over the edge.

He's charged with premeditated murder, not terrorism.

No? Really? When did Guantanimo Bay get shut down? when did the Patriot Act get repealed? When did Obama stop using predator drones to kill terrorists? I give Obama a fair amount of credit on the terrorism front, and all of his successes, from where I sit, are because he largely left the Bush administration's policies work as intended. The one change Obama made was to to try and make other nations like us more. What has that gotten us? ZIP.

Obama hasn't closed GTMO because we can't find other nations to take who's left. Didn't he sign an order to have it closed his first day as president? That Obama hasn't closed GTMO yet isn't at all an endorsement of Bush policy, it's another one of Bush's messes he's been left to clean up.

As for the Patriot act, the big issue has always been oversight. As the Senate couldn't get amendments to the bill to a full vote, Obama signed it's renewal and is providing stronger enforcement through the Department of Justice. Again, a departure from Bush policy.

As for predator drones, Obama has again departed from the Bush policy to use drone strikes very selectively in sensitive areas and instead use them as a primary means to go after the enemy where they actually are...like in Pakistan and Yemen.

Obama certainly doesn't share the Bush policy for selective use of torture or remote detention facilities.

Obama certainly doesn't share the Bush tendency for unilateral action.

I'd say they've both shared a desire to promote democracy, but while Bush did it through massive military action, Obama has chosen to lean into opponents and let the local people have more influence over their future.

I'd say their approaches to foreign policy have some similarities, but mostly on inherited issues. For new events Obama has handled them perhaps in a dramatically different manner.

You said the debates would decide. You said that, not me.

I think the debates are very important to sway independent voters.

It's why Gingrich pushes for the Lincoln Douglas format so he can get into long-winded academic responses to weave philosophy with his deep knowledge of history. It's something he's very talented at...unfortunately it doesn't necessarily show leadership.

-spence

[scottw]

Originally Posted by spence

The Ft Hood shooting while tragic wasn't classified as an act of terrorism. The investigation seems to have shown that Hassan acted alone and had no terrorist links to an outside group. More likely his mental health issues and a reluctance to deploy sent him over the edge.

-spence

right

ABC NEWS

By RHONDA SCHWARTZ, PIERRE THOMAS (@PierreTABC) and MARTHA RADDATZ (@martharaddatz)
July 28, 2011

A U.S. serviceman is in custody after he allegedly admitted he was planning an attack on his fellow servicemen at the U.S. Army base at Fort Hood, Texas, the same base where 13 people were killed in a 2009 terror attack.

U.S. officials told ABC News an AWOL soldier, identified by the FBI as a Private First Class Naser Jason Abdo, was arrested Wednesday after making a purchase at Guns Galore in Killeen, Texas, the same ammunition store where Maj. Nidal Hasan purchased the weapons he allegedly used to gun down 13 people and wound 32 others on Nov. 5, 2009. According to one senior official, Abdo has also mentioned the name of high profile al Qaeda cleric Anwar al-Awlaki -- the same man investigators said inspired the previous Fort Hood attack along with other potentially deadly terror plots in the U.S. -- though no direct link between Abdo and Awlaki has been found.

When Army Pfc. Naser Jason Abdo, accused of plotting planning a deadly bombing and shooting attack on soldiers at Fort Hood, made his first appearance in court in Waco, Texas, today, he yelled the name of accused Fort Hood shooter Major Nidal Hasan.

Hasan is facing the death penalty for allegedly killing 13 people and wounding more than 30 in an assault on Fort Hood in November 2009.

Like Hasan, Abdo may have taken some of his inspiration from Anwar al-Awlaki, a radical American-born Islamic cleric who is among the leaders of the Yemen-based al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula (AQAP). One senior U.S. official told ABC News that after Abdo was arrested at a Killeen, Texas hotel Wednesday, Abdo mentioned the name of al-Awlaki.

Nidal Hasan had exchanged emails with Awlaki, according to U.S. authorities. Al-Awlaki is believed to have inspired several other terror plots in the U.S. as well, including the bungled Christmas Day underwear bombing of Northwest flight 253.

ABC notes that Abdo was likely inspired by Anwar al-Awlaki, who has repeatedly called for American Muslims to fight the United States.



just a coincidence and not terror juuuuuuust "tragic"

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

The Ft Hood shooting while tragic wasn't classified as an act of terrorism. The investigation seems to have shown that Hassan acted alone and had no terrorist links to an outside group. More likely his mental health issues and a reluctance to deploy sent him over the edge.

-spence

Spence, is there any limit to the lengths you'll go to ignore facts that don't happen to serve your agenda? The Ft Hood shooter called himself a soldier of Allah, he believed that's the cause he was advancing. That makes it an act of terrorism. They all have mental health issues, if that was the litmus test, none of them could be called terrorists.

Unbelievable.

[spence]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

Spence, is there any limit to the lengths you'll go to ignore facts that don't happen to serve your agenda? The Ft Hood shooter called himself a soldier of Allah, he believed that's the cause he was advancing. That makes it an act of terrorism. They all have mental health issues, if that was the litmus test, none of them could be called terrorists.

Unbelievable.

Agree, he certainly appears to have mental health issues. Do they ALL? That's a generalization you can't support with your facts.

-spence