Stripers Forever

[BasicPatrick]

Not giving an opinion but here are the actual numbers backed up by the best available science and actually being used to manage the fishery are as follows.

We all agree the science sucks but it is what it is and it is the SAME SCIENTIFIC METHODS USED DURING THE REBUILDING. All I am saying is that your positions should at least make some sense when compared to the numbers.

2010 Striped Bass Fishery
Commercial Discard Mortality 6%
Commercial Landings 27%
Recreational Discard Mortality 14%
Recreational Landings 53%


MA anglers catch between 3 & 6 million SB per year

MA anglers keep 300,000 SB per year

MA anglers release between 2.7 & 5.7 million fish per year

MA anglers dead discard is between 240,000 & 500,000 SB per year

[numbskull]

Commercial discard mortality is 1/2 of recreational? OoooooooooKKKK.

As for the recreational catch numbers, we all know they are a gross over estimate. The ASMFC technical committee knows this as well. But the ASMFC itself (with NOAA's blessing, surprise, surprise) voted not to change how recreational catch is estimated......partly since there is no other proven methodology to estimate it (the one they use is not proven either), partly because true lower recreational catch numbers would not result in a higher F and force management changes, and partly because it suits their goal of justifying a commercial fishery. A lower recreational catch would allow a higher commercial take to achieve maximal sustainable yield.....and it is no coincidence that is exactly what some on the ASMFC tried to do recently.

Under other proposed more realistic models, the commercial percentage goes up to almost 60 % of total catch. Much of the remaining recreational catch is charter boat generated. The average schmuck recreational guy gets a tiny share.

We all know this, only some like to keep spouting phony figures to justify their continued shafting of recreational schmucks. Does ANYONE on this board think the total non-charter recreational catch comes anywhere close to what was killed off Chatham this year by the commercial fleet. If so, where and when were those fish caught? Again, where and when in MA did a recreational bite happen to come anywhere close to what was taken off Chatham during the commercial slaughter this summer?

[MakoMike]

Originally Posted by BasicPatrick

Not giving an opinion but here are the actual numbers backed up by the best available science and actually being used to manage the fishery are as follows.

We all agree the science sucks but it is what it is and it is the SAME SCIENTIFIC METHODS USED DURING THE REBUILDING. All I am saying is that your positions should at least make some sense when compared to the numbers.

2010 Striped Bass Fishery
Commercial Discard Mortality 6%
Commercial Landings 27%
Recreational Discard Mortality 14%
Recreational Landings 53%


MA anglers catch between 3 & 6 million SB per year

MA anglers keep 300,000 SB per year

MA anglers release between 2.7 & 5.7 million fish per year

MA anglers dead discard is between 240,000 & 500,000 SB per year

Those numbers are even more skewed, in the other direction when it comes to cod. So now with the cod crisis would you guys argue that cod should be a commercial species only?

[Thumper]

Personally I don't think we will every see game fish status, there is just to much money involved.
Plus how many out there are going to ask for increased limits because there will be no commercial pressure?


1@36in across the board...

[Mr. Sandman]

Where is the Black market numbers in this? You know, the undersized and illegal bass that are cleaned and sold to restaurants who don't hold buying permits? Oh, that does not exist I guess. Lets not be naive, this really exists and is being ignored. Also, when I see draggers working the shoals off Muskeget channel in late August and September I guess they don't catch any Striped bass at all huh? They don't seem to report any, that much I know and boats all around seem to be catching them.A few years ago draggers from Montauk and Point Judith were pounding the waters off of squibnocket, close to the beach < one mile at times. A beach goer/fishermen saw them several days in a row. He called the EPO. He looked into it. They claimed they were squid fishing. He went out there with the help of the USCG on a helicopter and got the numbers off the boat(s). He tracked one down in Point Jude when they got back. Guess what he had on-board? Hint: It was not squid. The problem is the penalty is not severe enough to make people stop...chances of being caught are slim, while the payoff can be good. Just make it a game fish and take the $ off the fishes head and 98% of this will stop.

The rec kill #'s make some assumptions that every fisherman is keeping his limit. Do you know how many Striped Bass I kept this year????? ZERO, NONE, NADA...Please adjust your numbers accordingly. Oh and I put over 400 hours on my boat this season. Nearly all of that was spent fishing. So I put some serious money into the economy and took mostly memories out of it.

The Banner statement below has the necessary "science" and "management" needed to make SB a healthy, stable as well as an economically and socially beneficial activity for all.
Your welcome in advance.

[Fly Rod]

Originally Posted by Mr. Sandman

Where is the Black market numbers in this? You know, the undersized and illegal bass that are cleaned and sold to restaurants who don't hold buying permits? Oh, that does not exist I guess. Lets not be naive, this really exists and is being ignored. Also, when I see draggers working the shoals off Muskeget channel in late August and September I guess they don't catch any Striped bass at all huh? They don't seem to report any, that much I know and boats all around seem to be catching them.A few years ago draggers from Montauk and Point Judith were pounding the waters off of squibnocket, close to the beach < one mile at times. A beach goer/fishermen saw them several days in a row. He called the EPO. He looked into it. They claimed they were squid fishing. He went out there with the help of the USCG on a helicopter and got the numbers off the boat(s). He tracked one down in Point Jude when they got back. Guess what he had on-board? Hint: It was not squid. The problem is the penalty is not severe enough to make people stop...chances of being caught are slim, while the payoff can be good. Just make it a game fish and take the $ off the fishes head and 98% of this will stop.
Your welcome in advance.

Lets not go overboard on this and add the draggers to this, they are illegally fishing for stripers any way. If you want to add them into the equasion lets add the recreational and illegals that take under size fish home. Maybe we need homeland security in on this.

[toaster816]

Fly Rod what species are you going to target to pay for your gas oil and dock fees when you can't find a striper anymore? Do you not agree that the striper fishery isn't sustainable at the current rate that both the rec's and comm's are pressuring it at? It is a valuable fish to both of us it seems, wouldn't you want to do what you can today to save it for future generations?

[OLD GOAT]

The last time I drove down Old Commers rd. in Chatham during the commercial season there where as many out of state # plates as in state plates and they where parking for the (big kill) commercial bass season.
When I see $150,000 or more parked along the road it sounds like STORY TIME fishing.
New boat,new trailer,new boat.150,000---catch---maybe5,000 -10,000???
do the math

[Fly Rod]

Originally Posted by toaster816

Fly Rod what species are you going to target to pay for your gas oil and dock fees when you can't find a striper anymore? Do you not agree that the striper fishery isn't sustainable at the current rate that both the rec's and comm's are pressuring it at? It is a valuable fish to both of us it seems, wouldn't you want to do what you can today to save it for future generations?

The fishery will out last me. There are plenty of stripers around. Your just not fishing where they are. Shore fishermen will not catch the fish that you would from a boat. On most any given day when I recreational fish I can catch 24-30 stripers in the three to four hours that I am out there, I get tired of reeling them in and most are under 28"and they all get thrown back, I do not eat striper and once in a while I will give one away, a keeper that is.

When I go commercially very, very few of the fish I catch are under 38", virtually no discard, maybe a half dozen during the commercial season may be under 34", it averages less then one fish per day.


How many do you throw back to get one keeper???

There is nothing more relaxing then to be on the water in the summer relaxing at a sport that one enjoys, hauling in a dozen or so fish worth three bucks a pound and making about seventy bucks per fish, then taking out the wife to have a nice steak dinner on the deck of a lounge and watch a boat or two go by.

I'm more worried about not fishing for cod commercially.

[numbskull]

Originally Posted by Fly Rod

I'm more worried about not fishing for cod commercially.

Why? The same guys have been counting both populations.

[toaster816]

Originally Posted by Fly Rod

The fishery will out last me. There are plenty of stripers around. Your just not fishing where they are. Shore fishermen will not catch the fish that you would from a boat. On most any given day when I recreational fish I can catch 24-30 stripers in the three to four hours that I am out there, I get tired of reeling them in and most are under 28"and they all get thrown back, I do not eat striper and once in a while I will give one away, a keeper that is.

When I go commercially very, very few of the fish I catch are under 38", virtually no discard, maybe a half dozen during the commercial season may be under 34", it averages less then one fish per day.


How many do you throw back to get one keeper???

There is nothing more relaxing then to be on the water in the summer relaxing at a sport that one enjoys, hauling in a dozen or so fish worth three bucks a pound and making about seventy bucks per fish, then taking out the wife to have a nice steak dinner on the deck of a lounge and watch a boat or two go by.

I'm more worried about not fishing for cod commercially.

That's the difference between you and I my friend. I see more value in a 23 pound striped bass than seventy bucks. Enjoy the steak dinners with your wife while you can.

[piemma]

[QUOTE=Mr. Sandman;905160]Where is the Black market numbers in this?

AH HA!!

now you hit the real issue. If the Striper became a game fish then there would be no Black Market. You can't sell them in the Black market if they don't sell them legally. No restaurant owner would buy a fish that cannot be sold anywhere. Problem solved.

Make it a damn gamefish and stop the nonsense of arguing whose to blame. It don't matter who's to blame. Just stop the killing, make it C&R and the problem is solved. And all the comms, who I have no problem with making money on fish, should then go and kill scup.

[stripermaineiac]

LOL And just how few commercial tickets are there in Mass. So roughly less than 1 % of the fishermen have a release lortality that is half what how many thousand sportfishermen have.Pat put the numbers in perspective. On the west coast less than 2% of the fishermen keep 98% of the Salmon landed.The other 98% are only allowed to keep 2%.When so few do so much damage compared to the whole it's time for it to stop.Misrepresenting the facts just don't make it anymore.We in Maine have lost a lot of our fishing due to this backwards thinking as they don't make it through the gauntlet between here an the spawning grounds.There are fewer commercial tickets than there are people that fish the Vineyard Derby and the great majority of them aren't even used so the real damage is being done by an even smaller number.Funny but a handfull killing 6% is pretty sad in my book.

[stripermaineiac]

LOL Mike you an many others seem to forget all the taxes paid on fishing tackle-Wallop Buereau tax -paid before it's sold plus all the usage fees and sales tax. we pay for it not the genera; public stop mis representing the facts to try to make your point seem more valid.We pay our own way an the public gets huge benefits in access point paid for by all the fees we pay.Commercial fishing is so over subsidised now that it takes 5 yrs of income to repay one years subsidy.All you need to do is go into the government budget and the figures tell the story.

[MakoMike]

Originally Posted by stripermaineiac

LOL Mike you an many others seem to forget all the taxes paid on fishing tackle-Wallop Buereau tax -paid before it's sold plus all the usage fees and sales tax. we pay for it not the genera; public stop mis representing the facts to try to make your point seem more valid.We pay our own way an the public gets huge benefits in access point paid for by all the fees we pay.Commercial fishing is so over subsidised now that it takes 5 yrs of income to repay one years subsidy.All you need to do is go into the government budget and the figures tell the story.

Nice try nut all of those Wallop Breaux taxes get plowed back into recreational fishing, the "public" never see a dime of it. Which do you think raises more sales tax sale of recreational fishing gear or the sale of those tons of fish in the fish markets?

[RIROCKHOUND]

Originally Posted by MakoMike

Nice try nut all of those Wallop Breaux taxes get plowed back into recreational fishing, the "public" never see a dime of it. Which do you think raises more sales tax sale of recreational fishing gear or the sale of those tons of fish in the fish markets?

Probably depends if you take out Lobster, Scallops, Surf Clams etc.. and just left finfish...

[Mike P]

Many states don't impose sales tax on food purchases.

[tunaless greg]

Do like they do for RSA's and make all users buy their fish. You will create one market for striped bass. Whether you are rec, commercial or a charter boat, you have to buy your fish, get your tags (like many have recommended) and you decide what you keep for the year. Every kept fish has to have a tag. It works pretty well on the commercial side in ny. So the market will determine this argument. If the bass are going for $20 a fish, and a commercial guy can get $50 a fish, he will buy more tags. if the rec guys drive the price of a tag to $100, well the commercial or charter will probably buy less. The # of tags is the tac for the yr, divided by average weight of the fish. So on the mass commercial side we get a million pounds, avg sale weight, call it 20 pounds= 50,000 tags. Add that to the what the rec side gets (estimated) and call it 200,000 tags. Create some limitations so no one can corner the market, and the govt has now maximized the value of the resource. All the users will have to adapt. I know no one like this, but it is the fair, american way to do it.

[stripermaineiac]

Nice try Mike. what the recs spend each yr is probably 3 times what the commercial industry even comes close to especially with all the government subsidies they get.Last figures were somewheres around over a few billion just on the east coast.The only time commercial guys rent a motel room is to follow a school of fish to wipe out.MMMMM Like Chatham this yr.As far as where the money goes it's nice to see all those peirs built that are used by commercials that are paid for out of that money.

[MakoMike]

Originally Posted by stripermaineiac

.As far as where the money goes it's nice to see all those peirs built that are used by commercials that are paid for out of that money.

The Wallop-Breaux funds can ONLY be used for recreational fishing purposes.

[Saltheart]

I think the C+R mortality rate is way over stated by the Com side. We fish jigs , almost always get a mouth hook , release the fish immediately and seldom actually pick up big ones to dangle from their lips. Done right , catch and release can have a very low mortality rate. Lastly , if by chance a C+R guy does get a fish that's likely mortally wounded , that fish becomes one of the two or three they keep every year.

The huge majority of receational fisherman are lucky to catch a striper or two all year. I have been doing it for a very long time and I know many guys who catch nothing or maybe a fish or two in the fall. If you subtract the Recs who can not and do not catch fish , you probably are dealing with less than half of the estimated number of recreational striper fisherman.

[riff_raff]

Originally Posted by Saltheart

I think the C+R mortality rate is way over stated by the Com side. We fish jigs , almost always get a mouth hook , release the fish immediately and seldom actually pick up big ones to dangle from their lips. Done right , catch and release can have a very low mortality rate. Lastly , if by chance a C+R guy does get a fish that's likely mortally wounded , that fish becomes one of the two or three they keep every year.

The huge majority of receational fisherman are lucky to catch a striper or two all year. I have been doing it for a very long time and I know many guys who catch nothing or maybe a fish or two in the fall. If you subtract the Recs who can not and do not catch fish , you probably are dealing with less than half of the estimated number of recreational striper fisherman.

Well, there's definitely a learning curve on stripers but that's pretty bad if you are only catching a fish or two. Even the googans throwing chunks and clams into the surf on 2 ounce bank sinkers, that eventually just wash up on the beach, tend to catch a few fish a day (albeit small fish).

I've done lots of striper fishing with leadhead bucktail jigs and various rubbers from shore. I really enjoy it in the spring; it's far from harmless though. My experience is 20% of the fish or so get hooked deep in the throat. How many of them die is anyone's guess.

Average tide early season like that is probably only a couple fish, but when it's on you can easily catch 20. Guys willing to wade into the water (not me, if I'm going in it's by boat) do alot better. Some seem to be there every tide, catching schoolie after schoolie on flys and various artificial's.

A different catch and release crowd shows up once the season gets going, a fleet flyroddin shallow water in the early AM - same deal, schoolie after schoolie.. They actually seem to be targeting the small fish - and that goes on for months.

All that C&R does produce mortality, and it's on a huge scale for a long season. I firmly believe that the numbers showing commercial striper fishing is a drop in the bucket are correct.

Jon

[stripermaineiac]

So your saying that your illegally fishing for stripers in the protected waters of the EEZ.Those fish have been there for yrs and it's one of the schools that we're trying to protect. So they don't get wiped out like the other schools have. When hard cores up n down the coast aren't seeing fish there's a problem. just cause your sittin on a protected school in waters that are closed to striper fishing doesn't mean the fishery is in good shape.Your sounding like one of those charter guys in jearsy an Virginia that head out to closed waters an hammer big wintering stripers then as soon as they see enforsement people coming cut the bellys open and throw the fish over board.An thats ok as long as they don't get caught ask them they'll tell you that. about like you fishing for stripers in the EEZ.

[stripermaineiac]

Oh an by the way you seem to overlook the real numbers when it comes to parety. commercial striper fishermen aren't even a fraction of a percent of those fishing for stripers. so the true damge by such a small group is actually pretty Da- large.

[riff_raff]

Learn to read man. If I'm out on the bank they are a nuisance fish (ie I equated them to dogfish). We don't target them, we actually end up running because they'll endlessly hammer all our live baits.

The fact that Stellwagen is protected has nothing to do with the reason there are numbers of fish there. These things have tails and they migrate, and sometimes it's not into your historical honey hole. for whatever reason (wish I knew) sometimes more seem to decide to spend the season offshore rather than head into the harbors, rivers, and bays..

Again, the commercial fishery is open to anyone who wants in. Some years it's more than others. If you want in, join the party, else don't hate just 'cause you can't catch a Striper > 34 inches.

Jon

[stripermaineiac]

Sounds like another boat fisherman that's never walked the surf. As far as size goes well I'll match my 50's to yours anyday LOL.An I'm not talkin inches either LOL. Most of them came from place no boat can go.

[riff_raff]

Originally Posted by stripermaineiac

Sounds like another boat fisherman that's never walked the surf. As far as size goes well I'll match my 50's to yours anyday LOL.An I'm not talkin inches either LOL. Most of them came from place no boat can go.

Inches and lbs practically the same thing with fish that size.. Lots of > 40 lb fish, never a 50.

Yep boat fisherman for sure, only learned how to catch the early season schoolies that way (I think it's easier from the beach than from a boat).

You can cover alot more ground in a boat though, like I said, the fish seem to be around just not always where we want them to be.

Jon

[Fly Rod]

Originally Posted by stripermaineiac

Sounds like another boat fisherman that's never walked the surf.

I walked the rocky shore many times, maybe more then you. you can't beat the boat fishing.

[Chesapeake Bill]

"Only guys that fish from shore should be able to fish." "Only fly fisherman should be able to keep stripers." "The big bag commercial guys are greedy and doing all the damage."

Sounds like Occupy S-B here...

You can tell it is off season. Think I'll go out and catch another one or two today...6 more days to our season and big fish are here.

[MAKAI]

Todays word of the day kids, is "Braggadocio".

Can anyone use it in a sentence ? I need to go stick a pencil in my eye.