Paul Ryan it is...

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

Read it, it's actually pretty interesting.

-spence

Yes, interesting. The author states that Ryan can be an objectionist, or he can be a Christian, but he can not have it both ways.

Has the author ever put in print "Biden can either be a Catholic or he can be an abortion advocate, but he can not have it both ways?". Nope...

[spence]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

Yes, interesting. The author states that Ryan can be an objectionist, or he can be a Christian, but he can not have it both ways.

Has the author ever put in print "Biden can either be a Catholic or he can be an abortion advocate, but he can not have it both ways?". Nope...

Apples and oranges.

Biden is a known quantity and his position on abortion has been consistent. I'm not sure polls indicate that the Roman Catholic's absolute position on abortion is really embraced in the US anyway.

With Ryan the author is assertion a clear and very recent contraction. Ryan is a subject of interest who most people don't know much about...

Apples and oranges.

-spence

[scottw]

Originally Posted by spence

I'm not sure polls indicate that the Roman Catholic's absolute position on abortion is really embraced in the US anyway.

-spence

it's trending well

"Pro-Choice" Americans at Record-Low 41%

Half of Americans, 51%, consider abortion morally wrong and 38% say it is morally acceptable

this could be BIG trouble

The percentage of political independents identifying as pro-choice is 10 points lower today than in May 2011, while the percentage pro-life is up by six points. As a result, pro-lifers now outnumber pro-choicers among this important swing political group for only the second time since 2001, with the first occurring in 2009.

More broadly, since 2009, independents have been fairly closely divided between the two abortion positions, whereas for most of the 2001-2008 period, significantly more independents were pro-choice than pro-life.

[spence]

Originally Posted by scottw

it's trending well

It's still pretty flat over 5 years...go back a year and it was flipped...some of those Catholics must have been back in the kitchen...

-spence

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

It's still pretty flat over 5 years...go back a year and it was flipped...some of those Catholics must have been back in the kitchen...

-spence

Spence, at 5:12 PM, you say that the anti-abortion position isn't really embraced in the US. At 5:35, you admit that polls show otherwise, but you dismiss it.

Spence, do you ever get tired of incessantly moving the goalposts until it looks as though your side has scored a goal?

[scottw]

[QUOTE=Jim in CT;953839]Spence, at 5:12 PM, you say that the anti-abortion position isn't really embraced in the US. At 5:35, you admit that polls show otherwise, but you dismiss it.

QUOTE]

makes you wonder what he was doing between 5:13 and 5:34

[spence]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

Spence, at 5:12 PM, you say that the anti-abortion position isn't really embraced in the US. At 5:35, you admit that polls show otherwise, but you dismiss it.

Spence, do you ever get tired of incessantly moving the goalposts until it looks as though your side has scored a goal?

You're not paying attention.

There's a difference between an absolute position on abortion and what Catholics or for that matter Americans really think.

Please read my posts twice before you respond.

-spence

[scottw]

Originally Posted by spence

You're not paying attention.

There's a difference between an absolute position on abortion and what Catholics or for that matter Americans really think.

Please read my posts twice before you respond.

-spence

really?

"Half of Americans, 51%, consider abortion morally wrong"

what's the diffrence between this and an "absolute position on abortion and what Catholics or for that matter Americans really think."


"38% say it is morally acceptable"

is there a difference between those that find abortion morally accptable and an absolute position in favor of abortion and what pro choice or for that matter Americans really think?

it's either morally wrong or morally right..if you want to talk about certain exceptions in either case, it doesn't change the morality, if someone robs a bank it's morally wrong ( AT LEAST MOST AMERICANS MIGHT AGREE)....if someone robs a bank because they need money to feed their starving family......it's still morally wrong but some might look on it with less condemnation due to the situation that prompted the action, it doesn't suddenly become morally right due to your situation and the victim(s) don't know the difference

why do I feel a relativism argument coming on?

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

You're not paying attention.

There's a difference between an absolute position on abortion and what Catholics or for that matter Americans really think.

Please read my posts twice before you respond.

-spence

Spence, there's no need for me to read your posts twice. I don't even need to read them once, because I know what you're going to say before you post it. Always, always, always the liberal spin. Ignore anything that makes the conservative side look good, and focus on what makes the liberal side look good. If there is nothing that makes the liberal side look good, then do whatever you have to do to poke holes in the conculsion that conservatives might therefore have a point.

A little intellectual honesty makes life a whole lot easier. When I say intellectual honesty, I mean this...

Yes, Paul Ryan is proposing changes to Medicare. But so is Obama, who (1) shifted $500+ billion out of Medicare to pay for Obamacare, and (2) proposed that Medicare start paying doctors even less than they get paid now.

In an honest world, we would debate the pros and cons of both proposals. In the world we live in, Obama (and everyuone in the media not employed by Foxnews) tells seniors to be afraid of Paul Ryan, and no one caresthat Obama's plan is the only one that will effect those currently on Medicare. So, thanks to dishonest dialogue, seniors are afraid of Ryan, and they are embracing Obama.

Your side doesn't want that honesty injected in the debate Spence. Your side goes to unbelievable lengths to avoid anything resembling an honest debate. Because it's easier to defend slavery than it is to defend most (not all) liberal platforms.

First you denied that abortion was getting less popular. When you couldn't deny it any longer, you dismissed it.

"There's a difference between an absolute position on abortion..."

I assume by "absolute" you mean no allowance for abortion, even in the case of rape or when the mom's life is in danger. Spence, no one on the Republican ticket is saying that they would outlaw all abortions. Even if one of the candidates is saying they personally never support abortion, they aren't suggesting that become public policy.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

I'm not sure polls indicate that the Roman Catholic's absolute position on abortion is really embraced in the US anyway.


-spence

Spence, I'm not sure what planet you live on. Here on Earth, recent polls I see, show it's about 50-50 in this country. And as Scott correctly said, it's trending in the Catholic doctrine. I don't know why, but it is.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

.

Biden is a known quantity and his position on abortion has been consistent. -spence

Yes, it has consistently been in direct violation of the sacred teachings of the church he claims to be a member of. Spence, Biden goes to Catholic Mass on Sunday because he wants those votes. Then he goes to a pro-abortion rally on Monday because he also wants those votes. That's called pandering. If you want to get the Klan vote, fine. But you shouldn't also court the endorsement of the NAACP.

Real leaders take a stand, tell you what they think, and let you decide if you like them or not. To believe in everything, is to believe in nothing.

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

That's called pandering. If you want to get the Klan vote, fine. But you shouldn't also court the endorsement of the NAACP.

Real leaders take a stand, tell you what they think, and let you decide if you like them or not. To believe in everything, is to believe in nothing.

You've just clearly articulated my biggest gripe and reservations with Romney.

[RIROCKHOUND]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

Yes, it has consistently been in direct violation of the sacred teachings of the church he claims to be a member of. Spence, Biden goes to Catholic Mass on Sunday because he wants those votes. Then he goes to a pro-abortion rally on Monday because he also wants those votes. That's called pandering. If you want to get the Klan vote, fine. But you shouldn't also court the endorsement of the NAACP.

Real leaders take a stand, tell you what they think, and let you decide if you like them or not. To believe in everything, is to believe in nothing.

I am admittedly a lapsed Catholic, but I know more than a few people who are practicing Catholics, but disagree with some of the Dogma, but still believe in their faith and are supportive of their church. They do not go just to pander...

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by RIROCKHOUND

I am admittedly a lapsed Catholic, but I know more than a few people who are practicing Catholics, but disagree with some of the Dogma, but still believe in their faith and are supportive of their church. They do not go just to pander...

Of course, there are exactly zero Catholics who are perfect, we all have our flaws.

But the cathechism has binding beliefs, and non-binding beliefs. Binding beliefs means just what it says...those are things that you cannot disagree with and call yourself Catholic...like believing that Jesus is the son of God, believing in the importance of charity (not a strength of Biden either), and being opposed to abortion.

My point being, it's OK to disagree with some of the dogma. It's OK if you don't say the rosary, for example. It's not OK to disagree on abortion.

I don't know why anyone who is pro-choice would choose to call themselves a Catholic. I'm certain Biden (and Nancy Pelosi) does it to increase his voting base. And if his bishop had any spine whatsoever, he'd tell 'Plugs' to decide whether or not he wants to get Communion on Sundays.

[justplugit]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

To believe in everything, is to believe in nothing.

Yes, and if you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything.