Penn cleans house

[Pete F.]

Is the price of gas going up or is the value of the dollar going down?
This might be happening faster than you think.

[Swimmer]

Wunhunglo doesn't have electricity in his mud hut floor abode, so getting a plasma TV is not high on his to-do list. Don't forget these people still kill their female born children without government repudiaton.

[capesams]

no one saw the news I guess...china just built a [something like] 250 million gal.oil tank and refinery..an nothing to put in it...their looking to fill those tanks with the same oil we're after....oil going to the highest bidder?

had a talk with a shop owner yesterday about reel's...he's not happy with penn. he said look at these cheap reel's I get from oversea's,,can't get part's for them...penn goes oversea's, think I'll get part's for them? he has his dought's....the co's just want you to buy a new one when the one you have now goes south.....they don't give a rat's behind about getting the one you have fixed.. there's no profit in that.

[Diamond Tackle]

Originally Posted by Billybob

John - That's exactly my point. Maybe the corporate big shots don't realize, or maybe they just don't care because this process will take a while. But, the fact is that everytime they migrate an operation to China they are firing their BEST CUSTOMERS.
When Billybob loses his good paying job in the brass mill and gets a job at Walmart, he ain't buying no Plasma TV's - neither is Wonhunglo, who's working at the new brass mill in Xianjang cause he's only making 25 yuan a month!
Walmart's gonna have to layoff Billybob, cause their sales are down.All these wonderful service jobs disappear because there's no manufacturing base to support them.
Unemployment rises as the tax base shrinks and we have a crises on our hands.
The incumbent will get blamed, a new party voted in, but it's too late - the damage is done.
And the CEO retires to Cancun eessed:

Wal Mart is the single biggest importer of Products manufactured in China according to a 60 minutes program recently aired. $18Bil (thats billion)in 2004 or approx 70% of their goods are manufactured in china, and they expect this to grow at 20% yearly. They are a big part of the problem. They squeeze manufacturers til its unprofitable for the manufacturer to deal with them, then they suggest to that manufacturer, "hey. why dont you consider manufacturing overseas(asia) to reduce yourt costs". Think about that next time you shop at Wal Mart.

[PurpelNoon]

I was at The Gap the other day and I was looking for socks. Surprisingly all the socks they had were either made in the USA or in Canada. I felt good about that and bought a couple more pairs.

[JohnR]

BillBob - I know, that's what I meant.

Sadly funny, "the world needs ditch diggers" is true, but our economy needs a swath of people representing the entire spectrum of the job market from the bottom to the top, and we need the jobs that support them. So a few years back Wall Street ups the stock of a company for cutting costs by laying off a few thousand here and a few there, and then other companies follow suit. (Yeh, I'm picking unrelated situations here)... But now some of those workers are working again, sometimes in the same field and sometimes in new careers, often at a lower pay and position than before as there is somewhat of a glut, yet they no longer count against the unemployment becuase the 80K job has been replaced with a 50K job. And the 50 with a 30 yada,yada,yada...

People are getting retrained at the governments expense (read ours) to learn new skills, ie computers, or various corners of the service industry because their job was moved overseas.

In my field of IT, the loss of jobs to the dot.com boom (partially the fault of STOOOPID investers not knowing what WTF they were doing), the offshoring of positions (plenty of interesting articles saying how well that is working ) and I was competing for positions with my certs, skills, and 9 years on the job against someone with a masters and 15 years that may be severly overqualified but that's where the market was. Now I'm not buying a lot of stuff too. (Anyone looking for a network geek?)

So we have this wasting away of our industry and manufacturing base as the jobs go overseas. That person that spun metal is now landscaping or painting if they are lucky or Walmarting if they are not. The buying power remaining requires thay shop at Walmart further fueling the cycle. Wall Street raves about WM's success.

Housing costs in New England as well as other areas have skyrocketed. I moved to RI a few years ago but could never move back to mass now if I wanted. In the Boston area, pretty much between Providence and Nashua NH you need to spend 450-500K and up for a decent 3-4br in the average comunities. How much does Joe and Sally just got married need to have in combined income to turn that kind of nut? 120K household income? More? And Joe CEO has managed a company half into the ground but gets a big dollar bonus?

We have big effing problems in this great country.

Our schools suck for the most part.

We can't graduate ONE THIRD of our kids even though 20-30 percent of those that do probably should not in the first place.

The parents that should be reading to their kids when young are pulling three jobs to keep above water.

We're buying so much imported product that our dollars are all overseas, mostly in Asia.

The dollar is devauling. Sure, now our products are more attractive but what do we have left to trade with? Boeings? Sure, China will take some Boeings from us. The first 10 and then they start license production... Oil is going theu the roof from demand overseas and to the weak dollar.

Corporations are setting up shop in the Carribean so to evade taxes and pumping more money, then offshoring the jobs to save more money.

We are losing our technical edge.

We have lost our manufacturing edge.

How many service jobs will there be replace the industrial economy that we had?

China keeps ignoring patents and builds or rev-engineers when they want. They are building SIGNIFICANT military forces in their neck of the woods that while we may more and better, our stuff is not all in there neck of the woods. They control the access to the Panama Canal

We were the cat's nuts before. We are losing it people.

[steelhead]

Time to send the Union Organizers Overseas....

[afterhours]

Originally Posted by spence

Simple solution.

End this free-market nonsense as practiced by Buhs and Clinton because it is selling our very foundation in the name of corporate profits.

I really don't think our standard of living will be impacted that dramatically if we can't buy .69 cent potato peelers and 15 dollar DVD players.

There's a balance point there somewhere.

-spence

exactly

[steelhead]

Certain free market issues are already starting to show up in India relative to It suppport etc... Competition for qualified people, (can't be found) and wage scales and benefit packages are skyrocketing, etc... Sound familiar? Humpty may not be too far off as an analogy. Bottom line, all's fair in Love and War. We're at War economically speaking right now. Ask any Joe on the street. Question is, does anyone in Washington know it????

[beachwalker]

does anyone believe that free market is natural and healthy ?

does anyone remember Korea ? Mexico ? The Free market (through industry) has hopped and skipped it's way around the 3rd world looking for labor to exploit or moves on when the countries standard of living gets to high

IMO, unfortunately that seems to be the norm in the animal kingdom. kill or be killed i guess....

it means we feel slighted because our quest for profit has superceeded our quest for excellence

[Pete_G]

Originally Posted by Eben

I have to agree, if Penn made a better version of the 704 or 6 that was priced around 200 or 250 bucks, VS would be in big trouble. annodized, sealed drag... i'd buy one.

The only flaw with this is that VS already tried it. US built, US assembled, built like we want it to be (not counting an easy way to get inside) and look where it got them. Starting from day 1 it's apparently never exactly worked, at least in terms of the company making money. I guess Penn could learn from the mistakes and give it a try, but there is already a business model out there for built to last, built in the US reels and it's not encouraging.

In the past I've had several engineers stop by the shop, look at the VS, and be surprised they sold for what they did a few years ago. Which makes sense considering the company ended up being bought by Bradley Company. It's just an expensive reel to make, there's no way around it.

Lastly, not listening to customers is a reminder that the surf casting community; especially hard core surf casters, is a very small group. Many of the products we use weren't built with surf fishing in mind, they just happen to work there. I doubt the Saltiga was built with the surf in mind but it apprently works there. Support those who DO listen. Besides VS there aren't many reel makers, but Aquaskinz and your local plug builders certainly do.

[beachwalker]

yep, well said

[steelhead]

That's what happens when your economy is based on growth as opposed to sustainability.

[Billybob]

Beachwalker, your right. Companies have been chasing the cheap labor around the third world for decades.Gradually the standard of living and costs rise and they move on to the next.This migration has always had an effect on American jobs.But, China's gonna be the mother of all job busters.They just have sooo many people, and the investment community is Jumping all over it despite the political and economic risks. China is allowed to grow at an unprecedented rate on someone else's dime.
So perhaps it's survival of the fittest, and there's a new world order around the bend. The gravy train is pulling into the station.
The part I don't understand is: Why aren't we fighting it?
We are taking on water and standing on the foredeck, when maybe it's time to pull it into drydock and shore her up before we lose her.
If you know what I mean.

[PurpelNoon]

Why aren't we fighting it?



This country puts money and power ahead of all else. Things are not changed until the brink of catastrophe, and even then, the politicians have it all figured out so they will stand to benefit from it all somehow. In the end, it is always us that pay the price.

[ProfessorM]

Well hopefully Penn has moved forward with the firing of all that upper management and can get some people in there that can turn the ship around. They do have the Penn name and that is probably the most widely recognized name in fishing. Now they just need to get back to the drawing board and make some decent quality products. It can be done but they need to hire people that know how to turn them in that direction. Seems they have been resting on their laurels too long. If they wait too long though there are a lot of reel manufacturers out there just waiting to jump on their market share, if it hasn't happened already. As far as the relationship with their customers I guess they need work in that area too from what I have read. I hate to see any American manufacturing buisness that was so good at one time fall so far. Paul

[kayaman]

a few years back I had some problems with my penn reels and got no satisfaction from penn resolving these issues.... I went to shimmanno and haven't looked back......(well I did look at some of the penns last season, but walked away) .... it is a sad fact that all the sacred items that we used to pride ourselves with making have been outsourced ........

[capecodder]

So what is my alternative to a Penn Senator for wire line??? I have switched on the spinning side to shimano due to many of the poor quality/feature issues with Penn, but what about for wire??

[ProfessorM]

For wire or for trolling I feel Penn is still the way to go. Simple and effective reels. I am not sure if any other manufacture's offer a stainless, or chromed cast bronze spool. Aluminum spools just don't hold up to wire or leadcore for that matter, corrosion. I still like the old Penns before they went to the plastic bodies. There are millions out there. I have asked many times why they do not make anymore bronze spools for any of their reels, jigmaster, 112H, etc. except for the 113HSP. I guess they just want to sell you a new spool every year. I buy all my Penns on E-Bay and then have the old corroded spools stripped and chromed. All replacment parts are still readily available. Good as new. Paul

[basswipe]

I said this once before if Shimano offered the Stradic with a waterproof drag and a sealed housing for under $250 they'd be the balls.Will they do it...probably
not knowing that the hardcore surf guy will pay huge dollars for a VS.

Until then I'll to stick with my Spheros and 704z.Or possibly an Okuma VS reel depending on how well IT works out.

[BK From Penn]

First time posting on this board, so a quick intro is probably appropriate. My name is Brent Kane. I am the Advertising & Communication Mgr for Penn Fishing Tackle. Having been with the company for just over two years, I have seen a fair amount of the changes and can appreciate the concern and resentment towards Penn. I also worked at Fisherman's Headquarters in NJ for about 10 years prior and saw what was happening to Penn. About five years ago, I had given up any faith on the company. They allowed quality to slip, processes to slide, and their name to turn. Quite honestly, it pi$$ed me off, and when the company sold to the new owners I knew things would improve. Two years ago, I managed to get a position with Penn, and I have been holding on tight ever since; it is a bumpy ride. There were many things wrong, and to fix them is not an overnight process. As they say, what a long strange trip it's been.

From what I have read on this board so far, it seems like a pretty good group, and is the reason why I am offerring my email address to answer questions on Penn issues. Please feel free to ask anything with the exception of pricing, deals, product specifications, or what reel is best matched with what rod. My answer to these is simply see your local Penn Gold Label Dealer. As far as questions that pertain to Penn issues, I'll answer anything as honestly as I can. Quality, decisions, direction, production, relationships with Dealers, new product suggestions, whatever else you can think of??? I can be reached at bkane@pennreels.com I will have no problem with my reply being copied onto the site for others to read or even argue back to me with their take on my comments. I apologize for taking this approach, but the last time I spent time on a fishing forum it became impossible to keep up with all the topics, threads, and posts. I hope this approach works.

I look forward to receiving your emails, and all I ask for is patience; I will try my best to answer any inquiries the same day, but depending on other priorities, it may take a day or two.

Best regards,
Brent

[mikecc]

Originally Posted by mikecc

Penn's first problem is they are out of touch with the consumer.
They IMO just placed the nail in the coffin.
Once again they have underestimated the consumer.
In the past when Penn was top of the line reels they refused address the problem issues with their reels. When they did respond it was out of desperation because of lost market share. How many years of the consumer telling them that Penn’s bails flip does it take for them to listen? Well apparently they still do not get it because we are going on 20 years and nothing has been done other than telling the consumer they have the reel handle in the wrong position while casting.
They addressed the issues on the 5500SS and after 3 changes and 15 years they still did not get it right. So they discontinue the reel and come out with a new version called the SSg .
Well lets talk about their newest.
It finally got a infinite Anti-Reverse. All other companies have had it for over 5 years. Even on their cheapest $20 reels! They have not addressed the spool taper. And with every one running braid today they did not even put an oversized line roller on the series of reels. So their newest reel is already outdated.

If Penn would just listen.
For at least 4 years I have committed to a large quaint of reels. I call it the improved 704 /706
Give me this reel with a infinite Anti-Reverse , newer improved Bail spring ,drilled out rotor like a VS, Anodized finish not painted, oversized Line Roller Bearing. Does not have to be sealed .Hell with only 3 moving internal parts a kid could clean it in 5 min.
They could sell this reel in the $200 range
What does Penn do??
They move a problem reel that most guys were on the edge of using to a fixed rediculious price
From $85 to $129. and move its production overseas. Thus guaranteeing it’s extension.

The only way people are going to go back to Penn is if they get the same reel as they have been getting for 10 years and drop the price to $50 in level with all the other imported reels.
There is no reason for the consumer to support Penn now that they have moved their spinning reels overseas.

The steps that should have been taken are .
Clean house starting with the Management and then moving to the design and research and development. Replace them with a new team that will directly listen to the consumer and address the issues with their reels. And most of all remain in the USA

..

[Karl F]

Brent, welcome, and somehow I knew Mike would be the first to respond... oh yeah, make Mike a Penn dealer again I saw you wanted to address relationships with Dealers, as well.....

[mikecc]

Originally Posted by Karl F

Brent, welcome, and somehow I knew Mike would be the first to respond... oh yeah, make Mike a Penn dealer again I saw you wanted to address relationships with Dealers, as well.....

I am still a dealer .Just not a very happy one.

BK Hope you dont mind keeping this in public I have nothing to hide.

I love Penn ,just wish they would take their heads out of their.
I would never again use a penn spinning reel after past problems. I sell them to people who demand them which is fewer and fewer each year.After we are out of the US made spinning reels we will most likely drop all spinning reels by penn. There is to much out there better quality for the money.
Their Boat reels are now starting to take a hit, but they still remain on top

[JohnR]

Brent - Welcome to S-B...

I do not know what kind of influence, if any, that you may have in the upper workings of Penn. I truly hope you have some. As "Advertising & Communication Mgr" I'm willing to guess that you have been either tasked with trying to curb some of the disenchantment on the street or are taking it upon yourself to do that. If you have any true power beyond that, just maybe Penn has a chance.

Penn is in Deep Kimshe right now – certainly in the eyes of the former faithful and likely on the balance sheet as well. Perhaps your big water International reels are still top dog in their market segment but the products sought after and purchased by the Average Joe are no longer very sought after and less likely to be purchased. Up and down the coast, Penn probably owned 75% of the market, coffee grinders grinding….

Penn has languished in innovation and thoroughly embarrassed itself in product quality. Simple issues that have gone on for years like flipping bails and tiny line rollers have been ignored by the old ownership and apparently skipped by the new ownership.

Now that you are moving spinning reel production over to the shoe factory nation, what POSSIBLE incentive remains for us to purchase a Penn reel? The first reel I ever bought with my own money was a Penn. I have Penn reels my grandfather fished in the 50’s surf and bigger game. I have purchased numerous Penn reels over the years but it looks like my 975 from last year will be my last Penn unless something drastic happens at your company.

Issues with Penn:

Little innovation, Cannot even incorporate best practices developed by other companies (larger line rollers anyone?, Anti-Reverse?? Come on, this is bush league stuff guys)

Overseas production

Introduction of CRAP product

Ridiculously stupid Gold Label Dealer program

Re-badging of other crap product, Roddy Reels? Junk. Walmart JUNK. Actually Walmart might even pass on that stuff.

I am really not trying to be negative here but I can honestly NOT think of anything positive to say about Penn Reels or from Penn Reels over the past few years. There was mild hope with the Slammers but even those fell short. It is disappointing to see how bad Penn Reels is operating as a company, frustrating, disappointing, and suffering from a complete disconnect for it’s user base. We as a community WANT Penn to succeed and not need to stumble into the crap on this post but it is up to Penn to produce the World Class Reels that they falsely claim, and it is up to Penn to lead the American Reel market. Right now, you guys are not doing it.

I hope you can at least stay with this thread as you replied here.

Sincerely,

John

Chief Cook & Bottle Washer

www.Striped-Bass.com

[Nebe]

for what its worth, i have a slammer and absolutely love it.

[JohnR]

Originally Posted by Eben

for what its worth, i have a slammer and absolutely love it.

And that's why your go to reels are a VS and some tuned Old 704/6 reels, right? I have debated a Slammer time and again but the C/B ratio just don't seem right. I dropped that coin (and then some) on something else... a used VS. Imagine, needing to pay 3 times the value of Penns' premeire surf reel on a USED REEL because the Penn does not do what I want it to do where I want to do it .

[ProfessorM]

The only Penn's I buy now are the old models. I probably own 20 to 30 Penn reels, 80 % are boat stuff. Nothing newer than 1990. I buy them off the auction sites and fix or repair them myself. I feel all the new stuff just doesn't measure up to the old stuff. I feel way more comfortable with a 20 year old Penn than a brand new one. What I do have I love. What I like about the Penn stuff is the simplicity of the design and the ease of repair. My opinion is Penn has gotten lazy, collected the $ and put nothing back into the company, living off the once prestigious Penn name. Times are changing and you are being left in the dust. Paul

[Mike P]

I started cutting my surfcasting teeth just as Daiwa and Shimano started making inroads in the American market.

IMO, the only reason Penn was able to retain a market share in the face of comparable, and even superior, products from the Japanese was the loyalty consumers paid to "the Great AMERICAN Reel Company". Once you move spinning reel production to China, Penn is going to get lost in a sea of cheap-assed "entry-level" junk offered by a gazillion other companies--Tica, Okuma, Marado, you name it.

It's a pretty telling fact that the two Penn reels most favored by hard core surfcasters are a spinning reel designed in the early 1960s and a conventional designed in the 1930s. If I put a Captiva thru the paces I've put the green 704 on my shelf, it wouldn't have lasted for 30 weeks, let alone 30 years. Same with an International 975 as opposed to the 60 year old Squidder I still use.

Your main selling points for over 20 years, in the face of increased import competition, was simplicity of design, interchangeability of parts between similar models, parts availability, continuity of product, and above all else, products engineered and manufactured in the US of A. IMO that last point was the only thing that's kept Penn in business.

[basswipe]

I wonder what the future holds for the Z series.Discontinuation or overseas production?Either way we lose.

I guess its Shimano from here on out.