Obama goes to Hiroshima, and naturally, screws it up

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by wdmso

I am just saying if you dont think that yellow Race had nothing to do with with dropping the bomb , along with other consideration your willfully blind thats all

Good god. There was only one nation we were at war with at the time, and they were still brutalizing folks in the lands they were occupying. That's why we dropped the bomb on them. There were no caucasians around that we were at war with at the time, as an alternative.

If you want to claim that the fact that they weren't like us, made the decision easier? That may well be true.

WDMSO, let me ask you this...if Japan surrendered before we dropped the first bomb, do yo uhtink we would have still bombed them?

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by wdmso

I am just saying if you dont think that yellow Race had nothing to do with with dropping the bomb , along with other consideration your willfully blind thats all

Borrowing a verbal twist from Nebe, one might say racism "is overrated." In that the notion of superiority in some form or other exists universally in all cultures, races, and modes of living, it is too convenient to dredge it up, a priori, as the reason for doing bad things to "the other." That it might play some role, maximal or minimal, could be such a common, nearly constant, perceived truism as to be what Spence would call "old news."

But, despite the common thread of "mine is best" in all races, there are variations in the importance and expression of racial superiority in different cultures. "Yellow cultures" such as in China and Japan seem to have had a higher quotient and more severe expression of racial superiority, than have most "white" or "black" cultures. Arabic cultures might also rank higher in perceived self importance and superiority. All three, Chinese, Japanese, and Arabic, are very exclusive in the lands which they own. And all, especially the Japanese and Arabic, have been draconian in punishments they have inflicted on "the other."

How much racism played in our dropping of the bombs on Japan is hard, probably impossible, other than just assuming it existed, to define. Do you have some definitive documentation, some uncovered admission from on high that being "yellow" really mattered? That if Japanese where "white" we wouldn't have dropped the bomb?

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by detbuch

Do you have some definitive documentation, some uncovered admission from on high that being "yellow" really mattered? That if Japanese where "white" we wouldn't have dropped the bomb?

In hi smind, he has the evidence. They w. ere Asian. we bombed them. Therefore, we don't like Asians.

Of course, another (sensible) explanation is this...once the bomb was available, we weren't at war with anyone alse at the time, so there was no compelling reason to drop the bomb on, say, Norway

[Nebe]

We never would have used it on Germany.
"Yellow race" aside, the Japanese culture back then was to fight to the death. Germans were more civilized and would have surrendered sooner or later. Japan though.. Different story. Had we invaded mainland Japan, the losses would have been in the hundreds of thousands.
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[wdmso]

The wartime America was clearly racist towards the "Japs". The racism made the decision a little easy. But, racism alone is not a big factor.

I think I have said that several times


http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-rea...-lives/5308192

The most illuminating perspective, however, comes from top World War II American military leaders. The conventional wisdom that the atomic bomb saved a million lives is so widespread that … most Americans haven’t paused to ponder something rather striking to anyone seriously concerned with the issue: Not only did most top U.S. military leaders think the bombings were unnecessary and unjustified, many were morally offended by what they regarded as the unnecessary destruction of Japanese cities and what were essentially noncombat populations. Moreover, they spoke about it quite openly and publicly.

The US secretary of war, Henry Stimson, told President Truman he was “fearful” that the US air force would have Japan so “bombed out” that the new weapon would not be able “to show its strength”. He later admitted that “no effort was made, and none was seriously considered, to achieve surrender merely in order not to have to use the bomb”. His foreign policy colleagues were eager “to browbeat the Russians with the bomb held rather ostentatiously on our hip”. General Leslie Groves, director of the Manhattan Project that made the bomb, testified: “There was never any illusion on my part that Russia was our enemy, and that the project was conducted on that basis.” The day after Hiroshima was obliterated, President Truman voiced his satisfaction with the “overwhelming success” of “the experiment”.

Weapons test


Sorry men I just dont make this stuff up

[scottw]

Originally Posted by wdmso

Sorry men I just dont make this stuff up

maybe John Pilger does

coined the verb "to pilger", defined as: to present information in a sensationalist manner to reach a foregone conclusion."


http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017234336

[The Dad Fisherman]

I think assuming racist motivations to dropping the bombs is a little short sighted.

The Germans thought they were the superior race or Master Race

The Japanese referred to themselves as an Empire as they felt they were the Superior people on the planet.

I think the choice for dropping it on them might have something to do with the fact that they attacked us on our soil first. Americans were pretty outraged by that.

Our outrage at Germany didn't hit home until they surrendered and we started to discover all the death camps and what Hitler had been doing.
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[PaulS]

Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman

I think the choice for dropping it on them might have something to do with the fact that they attacked us on our soil first. Americans were pretty outraged by that.

Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

That's my feeling. Also there was the feeling that they weren't going to give up. I have read recently that some people feel they would have given up shortly but even if they did it still would have cost thousands of American lives.
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[wdmso]

And the us government infected black americans.. The Tuskegee Study of Untreated Syphilis in the Negro Male,under the guise of receiving free health care

he 40-year study was controversial for reasons related to ethical standards because researchers knowingly failed to treat patients appropriately after the 1940s validation of penicillin as an effective cure for the disease they were studying.

No chance that racism had anything to do with this either...

Seems people still wont accept the smallest possibility that ..wartime America was clearly racist towards the "Japs". not Just angry and That racism made the decision a little easier. and clearly racism alone was not a big factor. for dropping the bomb.
And we only moved 110,000 and 120,000 people of Japanese ancestry who had lived on the Pacific coast. Sixty-two percent of the internees were United States citizens. for security reasons race had nothing to do with it i understand time to move on

[The Dad Fisherman]

Originally Posted by wdmso

Seems people still wont accept the smallest possibility that ..wartime America was clearly racist towards the "Japs".

Japanese is not a race.....it's people who live in Japan.

American isn't a race, correct.

The term "racist" has completely lost it meaning from over/mis-use.
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[wdmso]

Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman

Japanese is not a race.....it's people who live in Japan.

American isn't a race, correct.

The term "racist" has completely lost it meaning from over/mis-use.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Only if your looking at by todays Standards in the 40's it was different

http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2010/...D-controversy/

taking in the late 1930 till 1950's

There was an attempt in this census only to obtain figures for “Mex” (Mexicans), who were defined as “all persons born in Mexico, or having parents born in Mexico, who were not definitely White, Negro, Indian, Chinese, or Japanese.”

In 1940, the only change was the elimination of the “Mex” category, and Mexicans “were to be listed as White unless they were definitely Indian or some race other than White.”

In 1950, the census form listed the following categories: “White (W), Negro (Neg), American Indian (Ind), Japanese (Jap), Chinese (Chi), Filipino (Fil),” and other races to be spelled out. Note that the form did not contain the term “Black.”

https://artifactsjournal.missouri.ed...nce-of-racism/

another conspiracy theory article

here are a few others

Asbestos is really safe
There are mountains of scientific evidence that asbestos is extremely dangerous to humans. It causes cancer and kills more than 12,000 people every year.

Trump, however, considers the substance a safe and effective fire retardant.

There is no drought in California
Donald Trump told an audience in Fresno that “there is no drought” in California. According to Trump, the state has plenty of water but it’s being held hostage by environmentalists in government. The idea that the government is engineering the drought was popularized by professional conspiracy theorists like Alex Jones.
California, in fact, is facing a severe drought of historic proportions that covers nearly 95% of the state.

Climate change a hoax invented by the Chinese
Donald Trump has repeatedly called climate change a hoax, often implicating the Chinese.The concept of global warming was created by and for the Chinese in order to make U.S. manufacturing non-competitive.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by wdmso

And the us government infected black americans..

And that was despicable. But that's not the same thing as dropping th ebomb on a brutal, bloodthirsty enemy, who made it obvious that they had no intention of quitting, ever.

There is zero moral equivalence between these 2 things. Zip. Ask the Chinese who were being raped and eaten.

[wdmso]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

And that was despicable. But that's not the same thing as dropping th ebomb on a brutal, bloodthirsty enemy, who made it obvious that they had no intention of quitting, ever.

There is zero moral equivalence between these 2 things. Zip. Ask the Chinese who were being raped and eaten.

Again you miss the point it was about what the government told the people as opposed to what they where really Doing !!!! Are you suggesting Race had nothing to do with giving those black americans syphilis or that race did never came up when talking if we should or shouldn't drop the bomb ..

like the Mustard gas experiments on troops in 1945 .. and to my point the bomb was a weapons test and a means to end the War not just for the sole reason to end the War as the narrative in 1945 from Our Government would suggest

you dont see a pattern ?

[wdmso]

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-w...periments-dies


Cavell was a 19-year-old Navy recruit fresh out of boot camp in 1945 when a commanding officer offered the chance to participate in a "special program." The officer gave few details, but said volunteers would get two weeks' vacation and an award in exchange for participating.

"We were just a bunch of young kids. We didn't know any better," Cavell told NPR last year.

not a chance this happened either testing Americans But the Abomb was just to end the war nothing more

[Sea Dangles]

Another conspiracy

Another conspiracy theorist

Well done,please find out who really shot Kennedy after you reveal we actually took down the world trade.
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[Sea Dangles]

This actually belongs in Slips Monsanto thread,pay attention.

Of course it is Trumps fault,next thing you know he will be stealing gifts from the White House. Oh,wait a sec...
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[scottw]

I think I'm starting to understand

[Duke41]

The Japanese got what there actions caused to happen. Sneak attack, killing POWS, murdering civilians, Bonzai attacks, a no surrender culture and a county (US) sick of war and ready to nuke them. So be it.

[Nebe]

Mecca is next.
#gotrump



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[detbuch]

Originally Posted by wdmso

The wartime America was clearly racist towards the "Japs". The racism made the decision a little easy. But, racism alone is not a big factor.

I think I have said that several times

Why say it at all? Since just about everybody else on the planet (except you apparently) has some inherent notion of superiority regarding their "race" or culture or team or neighborhood or country or ethnicity or style of life or diet or point of view, or etc., or etc., or etc., and since "race" according to the article you posted can mean country of origin, or nationality, or ethnicity, or color, or other (take your pick--no doubt it will soon become a matter of self-identification in an infinite variation of transrace as in transgender by which you can define your "race" by preferred genotype, phenotype, social type, IQ type, athletic type, weight type, or any preference type that you desire), how then can "race," ergo "racism" not be a factor, no matter how little, in any relation to "the other"?

That "racism" (especially in the expanding limits of definition) is always lurking in the muck of human consciousness, its distinction as a relevant motivator has to be more than that it exists. You can be racist against Japanese, but have no desire to kill them. You can even love or admire them. (All of the "white" generals in your article said that it was unnecessary or immoral to drop the bomb, even though being white no doubt made them racist). I think the vast residuum of latent "racism," in the spectrum of human relations, is harmless. It can be a motivation to kill, but that requires more than that it exists.

Mentioning it as a factor in dropping the bomb is unnecessary unless you have an unexpressed agenda. Did racism exist when the Japanese tortured and beheaded Americans in front of the other American prisoners? The Japanese would have to have been exceptional to not have racist impulses. But is that why they did it? That line of thinking implies all wars, murders, harms done against "the other" are motivated by "racism." Granted, we have progressed to the understanding in the U.S. that if "white" people do it, it's racism. But if "the other" does it, it apparently isn't racism.

Peculiar also in the article you posted that "yellow" folks can have various racial descriptions such as Chinese, Japanese, Korean, but "white" folks don't have French, English, Polish, etc. as racial identifiers. There is something "racist" about that. Or its just sloppy.
As TDF said, the term "racism" (as well as "race") has been so overused and misused that it has lost meaning.

[scottw]

Originally Posted by detbuch

As TDF said, the term "racism" (as well as "race") has been so overused and misused that it has lost meaning.

you can add 'hate" the the list of overused and abused to the point that it has lost meaning....

I think we already have "transrace" as an option and in a high profile way
http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/16/us/was...dolezal-naacp/

[Jim in CT]

WDMSO, you are assuming that racism fueled our ill will towards the Japanese in WWII. If that's true, why were we so committed to helping those most victimized by Japanese acts, like the Chinese and the Phillipinos? If there was widespread racism towards Asians, why did we care so much about helping those people?

We despised the Japanese because (1) they attacked us, and (2) their behavior was impossible for Americans to fathom. On the German side, while the Nazis were atrocious, the average German soldiers performed honorably (with a small number of exceptions like Malmady). Not so with the Japanese - their barbaric savagery toward everyone else, their fanatical refusal to surrender, their willingness to engage in mass suicide - they might as well have come from another planet.

Now...if you can find a nation of caucasians that behaved like the Japanese, whom we didn't despise the way we despised the Japanese, then you might be on to something with your claims of racism.

We were at war. And back then, political correctness wasn't at the forefront of everyone's minds, so yes, there was an effort to portray them as less than human. I say we did that because of the way they were acting. You say we did it because of racism. Well, we didn't set out to destroy the people of any of the other Asian nations, in fact, many Americans dies trying to protect the citizens of Asian nations. So I don't see hwo you can conclude that we had ill will towards anyone other than the ones who helped start and perpetuate the worst war this planet has ever seen.

[spence]

This thread should have been closed when Buck and I agreed.

[wdmso]

WOW you guys love cherry picking an argument.. your worried about
Obama being an Apologist in chief yet many have the denial badge of honor and choose only to read what isn't there ....


I have clearly stated I have no issues with the bomb being Dropped..

I also stated Racism made it easier in the decision making to drop the bomb not the only reason .. and have used example after example to point this out .. but like the whole OP it is based on something that wasn't said , so why should I expect anything less

An many think that Racism didn't exist in 1940 against black or the Japanese I guess ?.. why else should such effort be made to disprove
my assertion with a simple Americas were Mad at the Japs they attacked us 1st were brutal Bla Bla Bla , as were the germans the russians and USA... Oh and I mention race because I have an Agenda thats a good one ....

Since when Has seeing an issue in it totality = Agenda

or is only when people dont like the outcome of the big picture

Trump comes to mind when the issue is looked at in its totality = media Agenda

But what I don’t want is, when I raise millions of dollars, have people say, like this sleazy guy right over here from ABC,” Trump said, pointing to Llamas. “He’s a sleaze in my book. You’re a sleaze because you know the facts and you know the facts well.”

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by wdmso

WOW you guys love cherry picking an argument.. your worried about
Obama being an Apologist in chief yet many have the denial badge of honor and choose only to read what isn't there ....


I have clearly stated I have no issues with the bomb being Dropped..

I also stated Racism made it easier in the decision making to drop the bomb not the only reason .. and have used example after example to point this out .. but like the whole OP it is based on something that wasn't said , so why should I expect anything less

An many think that Racism didn't exist in 1940 against black or the Japanese I guess ?.. why else should such effort be made to disprove
my assertion with a simple Americas were Mad at the Japs they attacked us 1st were brutal Bla Bla Bla , as were the germans the russians and USA... Oh and I mention race because I have an Agenda thats a good one ....

Since when Has seeing an issue in it totality = Agenda

or is only when people dont like the outcome of the big picture

Trump comes to mind when the issue is looked at in its totality = media Agenda

But what I don’t want is, when I raise millions of dollars, have people say, like this sleazy guy right over here from ABC,” Trump said, pointing to Llamas. “He’s a sleaze in my book. You’re a sleaze because you know the facts and you know the facts well.”

"An many think that Racism didn't exist in 1940 "

Who the heck said THAT? Now who is the one responding to something that wasn't ever said? Racism was rampant back then (led by Democrats, but I digress).

"Americas were Mad at the Japs they attacked us 1st were brutal Bla Bla Bla "

Yes, let's dismiss the atrocities committed by the Japanese as "blah blah blah".

"the whole OP it is based on something that wasn't said "

I will make this really, really simple for you. Please go to my first post, and tell us exactly where I am responding to something that wasn't said. I pasted an exact quote from Obama, and then made a logical, compelling case for why it was a horrendous thing for him to say.

[wdmso]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

"An many think that Racism didn't exist in 1940 "

Who the heck said THAT? Now who is the one responding to something that wasn't ever said? Racism was rampant back then (led by Democrats, but I digress).

"Americas were Mad at the Japs they attacked us 1st were brutal Bla Bla Bla "

Yes, let's dismiss the atrocities committed by the Japanese as "blah blah blah".

"the whole OP it is based on something that wasn't said "

I will make this really, really simple for you. Please go to my first post, and tell us exactly where I am responding to something that wasn't said. I pasted an exact quote from Obama, and then made a logical, compelling case for why it was a horrendous thing for him to say.

No you made up your own narrative.. Evil showed up 1 time in the Speech ,,,, no different then this quote

I think WDMSO, you are assuming that racism fueled our ill will towards the Japanese in WWII. or
In hi smind, he has the evidence. They w. ere Asian. we bombed them. Therefore, we don't like Asians.

Again I never said any of those things but then you made a logical, compelling case saying thats what I Said ...another pattern emerges

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by wdmso

No you made up your own narrative.. Evil showed up 1 time in the Speech ,,,,

Oh, I see..first you said I responded to something that wasn't said. Now you are saying that I responded to something that was said "once" in his speech. I never claimed he said it repeatedly. Therefore I didn't make anything up. Tell me WDMSO, how many times does he need to say it, before you give me your blessing to be offended by it?

Once is enough. When one looks at what took place in WWII, it's actually fairly simple to distinguish between the good guys and the bad guys. Most idiots are capable of pulling that off. Not our POTUS!! Hooray!

Tell the Chinese and the Philipinos that it was "evil" for us to drop the bomb, and thus liberate them from the Japanese.

[scottw]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

I think WDMSO, you are assuming that racism fueled our ill will towards the Japanese in WWII. [/QUOTE]

Originally Posted by wdmso

Again I never said any of those things

Originally Posted by wdmso

wartime America was clearly racist towards the "Japs".

getting tough to keep up

[detbuch]

[QUOTE=wdmso;1101609]I also stated Racism made it easier in the decision making to drop the bomb

Easier? You mean like the decision wasn't easy enough so racism made it so? I would think the decision was not easy at all, and that racism would not make it any easier. Unless you're talking about some foaming at the mouth racism which is so much a part of one's psyche that it is satisfied by slaughter. Whatever latent racism existed in the minds of those making the decision, I don't think it was that instrumental in making the decision. If it was, then you may have some point in bringing it up. But, in order to throw that motivation into the mix, you need more evidence that was the case, not just some aside to make a more total case.

not the only reason .. and have used example after example to point this out ..

Was it a relevant reason at all? What was the relevance? Your examples were not comparable to dropping the bomb.

An many think that Racism didn't exist in 1940 against black or the Japanese I guess ?

Racism existed in 1940, and probably since the beginning of race consciousness, and still today. And it existed in the Japanese minds, and black minds as well. Do you know of some race that is free of racism. Is your point that racism is bad?

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by wdmso

Again you miss the point it was about what the government told the people as opposed to what they where really Doing !!!!

It seems you miss that point a lot. As in what is the Federal government really doing when it forces suburbs to "rezone." Or when it creates so-called "net neutrality." Or what Obama Care's true end game is, or even what it does, what it costs, and how it helps to transform a free market society into a government controlled one rather than merely to provide health insurance to those who don't have it. You seem to miss the point of what the Federal government really wishes to accomplish when it passes legislation and creates regulations with benevolent sounding titles which imply the opposite of the true nature of those regulations.

And you seem to totally miss the point of the Progressive notion of a living, breathing, Constitution which must be subject to Judges so called "interpretation" based on their personal opinions of "justice" all the while pretending that they really are abiding by the Constitution which they are actually turning upside down. You are quite content with their intended destruction of the original constitutional order centered on individual unalienable rights protected by separation of powers. And the transformation of it into a government centered bureaucracy which decides what rights we have, how the economy must function, and intrudes into every aspect of our lives. And this chameleon behavior has been documented and even admitted to by some of them. So we don't have to just conjecture or say "if you don't think it's really so you're willfully blind."

You said I had an apocalyptic view when I pointed out, as you say, "what the government told the people as opposed to what they where really Doing !!!!" in the above instances. Is my view any more apocalyptic than yours re this bomb thing?


Are you suggesting Race had nothing to do with giving those black americans syphilis or that race did never came up when talking if we should or shouldn't drop the bomb ..

Blacks were not given syphilis in the Tuskegee experiment. They already had it. And at the time there was no known reliable cure. And I don't know if race was discussed in the formation of that experiment. Certainly, black doctors, nurses, and administrators were involved and were in on the discussion. It became discredited years after when penicillin was discovered as a reliable cure, but the participants were not given it. And the experiment was investigated, documented, exposed, and shut down.

And I don't know if race came up in discussing whether or not to drop the bomb. Has the government's supposed racism been documented. Have there been any admissions of dropping the bomb made easier because it targeted yellow people?
Do you know? Or are you assuming that since Americans were racist toward Japanese they must surely have brought up race and how that would make it OK to drop the bomb. Abe Lincoln was a racist by today's standards. Is that why he wanted to stop the spread of slavery and even abolish it. And caused over half a million, mostly white men, to be killed to free the slaves in the rebellious slave States? Would Lincoln, the racist, have dropped the bomb?

like the Mustard gas experiments on troops in 1945 .. and to my point the bomb was a weapons test and a means to end the War not just for the sole reason to end the War as the narrative in 1945 from Our Government would suggest

you dont see a pattern ?

"I have clearly stated I have no issues with the bomb being Dropped.."
"racism alone is not a big factor."

I see a pattern in your above quotes intertwined with the rest of your narrative in this thread. It's a rather incoherent one designed, it seems, to expose government fakery, even though you don't disapprove of what it did, you want to expose its lying about it. Or expose half truths. That's nice. But when you have to pile on with a personal assumption under the guise of something that is supposedly so self evident that we must be willfully blind to question it, you weaken your argument rather than strengthening it with an unsubstantiated tidbit which you think fleshes out the total reasons for dropping the bomb.