9/11/01

[justplugit]

Been watching the History Channel's portrayal of 9/11 for the last week. Mostly about the horrendous attack and the Heros. Tonight i saw an HBO special on 9/11 which included a factual narration by Juliani, but most important it was about the people who were affected on that day as they told their stories. No holds barred you could feel the pain they went through, and are going through. For some reason as they showed the 767 hitting the North Tower this time, i felt this unbelievable anger and yelled right out loud ,those freekin bastages.
We are at war with a determined enemy that has no respect whatsoever for human life, we should remember that everyday, and never forget what they did ,and what they will continue to do.

[Skip N]

Alot of people have already forgotten

[Karl F]

9/11/01---> 5 years later, Osama running loose, mess in Afghanastan, bigger mess in Iraq, and gonna be another mess in Iran, and the rest of the middle east as well.
Americans have not changed there way of life too much, most, (like myself) piss and moan about fuel costs, etc. But, we still work our jobs, buy our groceries, and lead our lives pretty much the same.
And, like Skip said, most have forgotten..

12/07/41----Pearl Harbor Day... US declares war, not only on the attackers, Japan, but also on Germany,and Italy. MUCH SACRIFICE at home as well as those in the military, Automakers suspend production of cars, Major Rationing of everything, most males 35 years old and under, who are not working defense manufacturing jobs are in the service. Japanese Americans, are rounded up and encamped. Women, whose husbands are overseas, are pressed into working in the defense factories.. all major sports are shut down, players pressed into service, hollywood types as well..
4 and 1/2 years later.. WW2 over, Hitler dead, Japan overthrown, Mussolini, gone. Tremendous sacrifice and unity of us and the other countries we allied with...
Woud Not fly today, in this PC world.. ..
Would it? ....

[Skitterpop]

Interesting view as always Karl ..... Those days may return out of necessity someday in the near future.

[spence]

Well said Karl...

After 9/11 what did Bush say? Keep shopping.

We do face a serious challenge, but this country has risen to great challenges before. They say this war is different, but reading history it looks like every war has been different.

9/11 certainly shocked and scared the hell out of us all, but it made me think more about what I believe makes America great. This is where I think we should get our passion to solve our problems...not from emotionally charged lessons of the past. Most people tend to use poor judgement when full of rage...

That's my perspective at least.

-spence

[Skip N]

Originally Posted by spence

Well said Karl...

After 9/11 what did Bush say? Keep shopping.

We do face a serious challenge, but this country has risen to great challenges before. They say this war is different, but reading history it looks like every war has been different.

9/11 certainly shocked and scared the hell out of us all, but it made me think more about what I believe makes America great. This is where I think we should get our passion to solve our problems...not from emotionally charged lessons of the past. Most people tend to use poor judgement when full of rage...

That's my perspective at least.

-spence

I find it hard to believe that someone like you would support an all out war on terroism. You would support an all out war against Radical Islam and Terroists??? The people in the US today are a bunch of fairys and would never embrace a full scale WWII type war, even if it meant totally wiping out Terror. They would rather apease the Terroists rather than defeat them.

But hey, that's the liberal way!

[spence]

Originally Posted by Skip N

The people in the US today are a bunch of fairys and would never embrace a full scale WWII type war, even if it meant totally wiping out Terror. They would rather apease the Terroists rather than defeat them.

I think I'm just going to let this broad and absurd generalization stand on it's own...

Nice job Skip

-spence

[stripersnipr]

Originally Posted by spence

Well said Karl...

9/11 certainly shocked and scared the hell out of us all, but it made me think more about what I believe makes America great. This is where I think we should get our passion to solve our problems...not from emotionally charged lessons of the past. Most people tend to use poor judgement when full of rage...

That's my perspective at least.

-spence

Aren't lessons from the past considered History?.............

[spence]

Originally Posted by stripersnipr

Aren't lessons from the past considered History?.............

Ahhh, now you're just mincing words...

I think you know the difference.

-spence

[Karl F]

My Dad had a saying, I am sure most have heard it or versions of it.
It is more of a philosophy, of his generation, the WW2 guys, they lived it too.
"If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything."
They pulled together, and fought a common enemy.

Today, we seem more content, to fingerpoint, and fight amongst ourselves. (this thread, is an excellant example)
Abe Lincoln had a saying some 140-145 years ago..
"United We Stand, Divided We Fall"..

I had a History teacher who loved the saying "He who does not learn from History, is doomed to repeat it."
While this could be interpurted that, this is why we continue to war, it could also be, (if you figure how we handled Korea, and Viet Nam), why we continue to not be able to finish what we started.

I tend to doubt the nation as a whole has the dedication, guts and perserverance, that the WW2 generation did, and this, will ultimatley, be our downfall.

anyway.. just my 2 cents, for what it's worth

[justplugit]

Originally Posted by Karl F

9/11/01---> 5 years later, Osama running loose, mess in Afghanastan, bigger mess in Iraq, and gonna be another mess in Iran, and the rest of the middle east as well.
Americans have not changed there way of life too much, most, (like myself) piss and moan about fuel costs, etc. But, we still work our jobs, buy our groceries, and lead our lives pretty much the same.
And, like Skip said, most have forgotten..

12/07/41----Pearl Harbor Day... US declares war, not only on the attackers, Japan, but also on Germany,and Italy. MUCH SACRIFICE at home as well as those in the military, Automakers suspend production of cars, Major Rationing of everything, most males 35 years old and under, who are not working defense manufacturing jobs are in the service. Japanese Americans, are rounded up and encamped. Women, whose husbands are overseas, are pressed into working in the defense factories.. all major sports are shut down, players pressed into service, hollywood types as well..
4 and 1/2 years later.. WW2 over, Hitler dead, Japan overthrown, Mussolini, gone. Tremendous sacrifice and unity of us and the other countries we allied with...
Woud Not fly today, in this PC world.. ..
Would it? ....

BINGO Karl, i could hear it from here.
My intention for starting the thread was not to start more political rebel rousing on the site, but to express my anger and remind myself,as well as others, of that horrific day planned and executed against our civilian population. We say we remember, but speaking for myself i find it's way in the back of my mind. It shouldn't be, as i lost 2 good young friends in the towers, as some on our site have also lost others.My son in law is an American Airlines pilot who on that morning left Kennedy in his 767 with a full tank at 8 am flying non stop tp LAX.

We sat by phone with my daughter and 2 Grandaughters until 11:30 am until we found out he was safe after rumors that there were still additional hijacked planes in the air.That alone should make me remember everyday, but it doesn't. Then to see once again how they flew those planes into the innocents, ON PURPOSE ,and seeing the horrible way they died, unbelievable, reminded me of what this enemy is all about.


Someone mentioned emotion, well the emotion we felt in the days following 9-11 , which united us in our resolve,should be the same emotion to bring us together now in defeating these crazies. Sacrafices will be needed, maybe even more than were required for WW2, but if we are to defeat them and have our children and grandchildren know what freedom really is, we will have to remember all the time and unite in our efforts.

[spence]

Originally Posted by Skip N

Alot of people have already forgotten

Like who? If it's a lot of people this should be easy...

-spence

[afterhours]

i for one will NEVER forget.

[stripersnipr]

Some people choose to fight some people choose to study nuances ad nauseum.

[Striperknight]

I had security clearance and went into ground zero while it was still burning. I will never forget!

[spence]

Originally Posted by stripersnipr

Some people choose to fight some people choose to study nuances ad nauseum.

Or better yet, crack a history book or two...open our eyes to reality and execute a pragmatic strategy that improves the effectiveness when we do choose to fight.

Most importantly

Let idiology guide our actions, not dictate them.

And Knight, was driving by the pit just the other week. Gave me freaking goosebumps.

-spence

[spence]

Originally Posted by justplugit

We are at war with a determined enemy that has no respect whatsoever for human life, we should remember that everyday, and never forget what they did ,and what they will continue to do.

Back to the thread...I'd certainly agree that the enemy is determined.

But as for respect for human life, I'd throw on the table the notion that in the name of attacking military targets in Iraq and Afghanistan we've probably killed more innocent women and children that in all al Qaeda attacks combined.

This isn't to say your statement isn't true, but from an Islamic perspective...do we?

-spence

[afterhours]

[QUOTE=spence]

But as for respect for human life, I'd throw on the table the notion that in the name of attacking military targets in Iraq and Afghanistan we've probably killed more innocent women and children that in all al Qaeda attacks combined.

This isn't to say your statement isn't true, but from an Islamic perspective...do we?
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i highly doubt that if combined ALL al qaeda induced casualties worldwide that we could possibily come close. when ever a few civilians are killed over there the left press seems to spout.
as far as respect for human life- yeah right! they're freekin' animals, plain and simple.

[spence]

Originally Posted by afterhours

i highly doubt that if combined ALL al qaeda induced casualties worldwide that we could possibily come close. when ever a few civilians are killed over there the left press seems to spout.

Well, from what I've read between the Pentagon and the human rights groups the range in Iraq along could be anywhere from the low tens of thousands to the high tens of thousands.

Even if you take a conservative approach, it's still probably 3X what al Qaeda has killed in major attacks.

All for a war Bin Laden said we would wage well before the fact was "decided" by the US Government...and that by most accounts was poorly justified and pathetically planned.

Again, the point is from an Islamic perspective, and even a moderate one at that...do we look like we respect human life?

This is important because just as some here use the lack of respect for human life as a motivator to go after terrorists, so do the terrorists use it against us to gain sympathy from the moderate Islamic community.

-spence

[afterhours]

can you please verify those #'s, show sources. no way in the tens of thousands in iraq.

[stripersnipr]

Originally Posted by spence

Well, from what I've read between the Pentagon and the human rights groups the range in Iraq along could be anywhere from the low tens of thousands to the high tens of thousands.

Even if you take a conservative approach, it's still probably 3X what al Qaeda has killed in major attacks.

All for a war Bin Laden said we would wage well before the fact was "decided" by the US Government...and that by most accounts was poorly justified and pathetically planned.

Again, the point is from an Islamic perspective, and even a moderate one at that...do we look like we respect human life?

This is important because just as some here use the lack of respect for human life as a motivator to go after terrorists, so do the terrorists use it against us to gain sympathy from the moderate Islamic community.

-spence

A moderate perspective understands the difference between targeted civilians, and collateral casualties occuring in a miltary operation.

But what specific war are you refering to when you say "poorly justified"? Iraq, Afghanistan or buth?

Bin Laden wasn't making a lucky guess when he said we would go to war after he attacked our country that was a given as it should be.

And exactly who should "decide" when we go to war?

[spence]

Originally Posted by stripersnipr

A moderate perspective understands the difference between targeted civilians, and collateral casualties occuring in a miltary operation.

That's the I'm my big comfy couch in New England gonna grill me a 14 ounce steak for dinner line of thinking.

But what specific war are you refering to when you say "poorly justified"? Iraq, Afghanistan or buth?

Iraq.

Bin Laden wasn't making a lucky guess when he said we would go to war after he attacked our country that was a given as it should be.

Well, Bin laden wasn't in Iraq (not sure if this is new to you?), but he did tell the Islamic community that Bush would indeed invade Iraq and humiliate the Iraqi people.

Given that the WMD issue is believed to be a sham worldwide, and that the utter lack of a post war plan has contributed to more Iraqi suffering and violence...

He seems to have built a lot of credibility among the already angered Muslims of the world...in fact invading Iraq how we have has done more to empower his vision for the world than perhaps any other forseeable action the US could have taken.

-spence

[bobfishgerald]

The body count of civilian casualities in Iraq appears to be approaching 50,000 according to the website Iraq Body Count which uses only deaths reported in news stories with no statistics or estimations involved. So the ratio of innocent killing seems to be tipped in our favor for now.

http://www.iraqbodycount.net/

[afterhours]

credible source?? reported in whose news stories?? jazzera(sp)?? the lebanon liberal?? al qaeda weeky?? stories verified by?? muslim digest??

[stripersnipr]

Originally Posted by bobfishgerald

The body count of civilian casualities in Iraq appears to be approaching 50,000 according to the website Iraq Body Count which uses only deaths reported in news stories with no statistics or estimations involved. So the ratio of innocent killing seems to be tipped in our favor for now.

http://www.iraqbodycount.net/

If I'm not mistaken the vast majority of those civilian casualties were targeted by insurgents and not collateral damage of American actions.

[spence]

Originally Posted by stripersnipr

If I'm not mistaken the vast majority of those civilian casualties were targeted by insurgents and not collateral damage of American actions.

I think that site does track both. While I wouldn't say it's reasonable to blame us for insurgent deaths, which are quite substantial, it is reasonable to say the lack of a post war plan has contributed heavily to the deaths from insurgents and general violence.

As Colin Powell said, you break it you own it.

As for deaths attributed to US action alone, do a google search and you can find various articles. To say that thousands haven't been killed given the massive use of firepower doesn't really make any sense...unless you beleve our smart bombs are a lot smarter than we realize.

-spence

[stripersnipr]

So proclaiming to the world that our President is a liar in the midst of War will lead us to victory?

[spence]

Originally Posted by stripersnipr

So proclaiming to the world that our President is a liar in the midst of War will lead us to victory?

If the people feel they have been misled then the trust must be restored before we can find a path to success...

So yes.

-spence

[stripersnipr]

Originally Posted by spence

If the people feel they have been misled then the trust must be restored before we can find a path to success...

So yes.

-spence

Thank you.

[Skitterpop]

There were many Germans who disagreed with what Hitler and his minions were doing.