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Old 11-22-2019, 10:13 AM   #1
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Theory?
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Old 11-22-2019, 11:27 AM   #2
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Theory?
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As opposed to the current Trumplican theory that Trump did not do, just what was it he did not do?

Ask for an investigation of Biden, he did
Ask for an investigation of the 2016 election, he did

Threaten Ukraine to get these things by

Withholding a meeting, he did
Withholding aid, he did

Oh, he did not say it on any record and won't release any
Oh, nobody heard him directly and the belief that was what he wanted is obviously mass hysteria

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Old 11-22-2019, 01:22 PM   #3
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Somebody is not paying attention. We call this a one trick pony.
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Old 11-22-2019, 02:40 PM   #4
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There is always a coverup, this is Susan Simpson's stuff after she cleaned it up. If you go to her twitter feed she has the transcripts linked in her thread and this is a very tight line she has defined.
https://twitter.com/TheViewFromLL2

The impeachment inquiry has been crippled from the beginning by the Exec Branch's obstruction, and its refusal to produce any records to the House.

But detailed, contemporaneous documentation showing Sondland lied in his testimony does exist. Because the NSC lawyers have it.

To see why, here's a quick recap of how the Ukraine matter unfolded, from the viewpoint of the National Security Council's top lawyer, John Eisenberg.

Thanks to Ambassador John Bolton, who made sure his subordinates went in to document every step along the way, Eisenberg knows a lot.

July 10: Sondland attends the Ward Room meeting with the Ukrainian delegation, and tells the Ukrainians that he and Chief of Staff Mulvaney have an agreement – if the Ukrainians go forward with their investigations, Zelensky will get his White House meeting with the president.
Later on July 10: After the Ward Room meeting, Fiona Hill goes to Eisenberg's office. She tells him Bolton sent her to report what had happened during the meeting with the Ukrainians, and Sondland's agreement to give Zelensky a WH visit in exchange for opening the investigations.
Also on July 10: Vindman separately goes to NSC legal to report the meeting, and gives the whole backstory to Eisenberg. He explains that for months Giuliani has been pushing the Ukrainians for an investigation into Biden/2016, and that now Sondland was asking for the same thing.

July 25: Per Eisenberg's instructions to "come back to me" if there were more concerns, Vindman return to NSC legal to report the phone call he had just heard between Pres. Trump and Pres. Zelensky.
Vindman tells Eisenberg that in the call with Zelensky, Trump had made the same request for investigations that both Giuliani and Sondland had previously been pressuring the Ukrainians for. Trump had specifically requested that Zelensky investigate both Biden and the DNC.
Also on July 25: Vindman's new boss, Tim Morrison, was on the Zelensky call as well. That same day, independent of Vindman, he goes to NSC legal to report what had happened on the July 25th call.
Even later on July 25: Morrison and Eisenberg have additional meetings about the Trump-Zelensky call. They make the decision to restrict access to the call, to prevent leaks about it from getting out.
Morrison is not involved in the subsequent decision about *how* to restrict access. Unbeknownst to Morrison, the July 25th call ultimately ends up locked away on the highly classified system – even though the call definitely does not belong there.

August 14: CIA lawyer Elwood receives the whistleblower's initial complaint, which was done outside of the ICIG WB process. She calls top NSC lawyer Eisenberg to discuss the issue, and they alert the DOJ. Elwood believes she is making a criminal referral. https://nbcnews.com/politics/trump-i...laint-n1062481

Late August: While preparing for the Warsaw meeting, Morrison tries to access the July 25 call and realizes it's not there. He tracks it down on the highly classified system, and when he asks Eisenberg how that happened, Eisenberg says it ended up there due to a miscommunication.

Sept 1: Pence and Zelensky have a bilat in Warsaw. After the meeting, Zelensky and Pence depart, but Gordon Sondland, Tim Morrison, and senior Zelensky-adviser Andriy Yermak are among those left. Morrison, per his testimony, saw Yermak and Sondland speaking.
Immediately after his conversation with Yermak, Sondland walks over to Morrison to give him an update. Sondland says he told Yermak that "the security assistance money will not come until Pres. Zelensky commits to pursuing the Burisma investigation."
Morrison's memory of this is distinct, and he recalls a detail that will become important later: in Sondland's discussion with Yermak, they agreed that it would be "sufficient" for the Prosecutor General – and not Pres. Zelensky – to make the public investigation announcement.
After Sondland's update, Morrison immediately calls Taylor to update him on what had happened w/ Yermak. Taylor in turn texts Sondland: "Are we now saying that security assistance and a WH meeting are conditioned on investigations?"
"Call me," Sondland response, so Taylor does.
In that Sept 1 phone call between Sondland and Taylor, Sondland says he spoke to Trump, and Trump told him Zelensky needs to publicly announce the Biden/2016 investigations, and that Trump would not agree to the WH meeting or security assistance until Zelensky did so.
This is the call where Sondland tells Taylor he made a mistake back on July 10, at the WH meeting with the Ukrainains. Sondland had told them that a WH meeting was dependent on a public announcement of investigations, but in fact the security assistance was also dependent on it.
In their Sept 1 call, Taylor and Sondland also discuss the same possible compromise that Sondland + Morrison had discussed: rather than have Zelensky make the announcement about investigating Biden/2016, perhaps the Prosecutor General could do it instead? Sondland says he'll try.

September 2 or 3: after returning from Warsaw, Morrison goes to the NSC lawyers for the second time, to report on Sondland's Sept. 1 discussion with Yermak, and the quid pro quo arrangement that Sondland had conveyed to the Ukrainians.

Sept 7: Trump and Sondland have a phone call. As discussed in an earlier thread, this is the call where Trump tells Sondland, "no quid pro quo."
But that's not all that Trump says. And we know this because Sondland immediately calls Morrison to tell him.
Later Sept 7: Sondland calls Morrison and tells him he just spoke with Trump, and that Trump had said "that he was not asking for a quid pro quo, but that he insisted that President Zelensky go to a microphone and say he is opening investigations of Biden and 2016 interference."
What's important here is Sondland wasn't just calling Morrison to say, "oh btw, Trump called."
Sondland's call had a specific purpose: to update Morrison on a change of plans from what was agreed to in Warsaw. Trump rejected the Prosecutor General compromise, he wanted Zelensky.
As Sondland conveyed to Morrison on Sept 7, "it wouldn't be enough for the Prosecutor General" to publicly announce the 2016/Burisma investigations. Trump told Sondland that he still wanted "Zelensky personally" to make the announcement.

Sept 8: Sondland calls Taylor to update him on the Sept 7 call with Trump (which Taylor already knew about, from Morrison).
Sondland tells Taylor that he and Trump had discussed the compromise that Taylor had pushed for the week before, but that Trump had rejected it.
In this Sept. 8th call, Sondland explicitly told Taylor that he had "talked to President Trump … and that Trump was adamant that President Zelensky himself" make the announcement of the Burisma/2016 investigations.
What Sondland was describing is the "no quid pro quo" call.

Sept 9: The ICIG notifies House Committees about the whistleblower's report. The WH is likely informed of this by letter, and at 10:00am it's discussed in the Senior Directors Meeting.

Why all this matters:
1. In the "no QPQ" call, Trump told Sondland about the specific quid pro quo that he required from Ukraine
2. Morrison immediately informed NSC legal about the call
3. NSC legal has contemporaneous records showing Sondland's testimony about the call is false

The White House is sitting on proof that Sondland's testimony about the "no quid pro quo" call was wrong.

Because the same day the call happened, Morrison ran to NSC to report it. And the NSC's Sept. 7th records are far more reliable than whatever Sondland said.
We do have the statements from both Morrison and Taylor, however, both of whom Sondland called to update on the "no quid pro quo" call.

And both agree: Trump did say "no quid pro quo," but he also described the precise quid pro quo he was requiring.

Sondland was wrong.

This also means that on August 14, John Eisenberg participated in making a criminal referral to DOJ based on Trump's July 25th call.

And then, in Sept, when given proof that Trump had escalated the conduct that had resulted in the criminal referral, Eisenberg kept it hidden.

Last edited by Pete F.; 11-22-2019 at 02:53 PM.. Reason: add

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Old 11-22-2019, 03:38 PM   #5
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Keep believing PeteF. You have been duped.
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Old 11-22-2019, 03:41 PM   #6
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Keep believing PeteF. You have been duped.
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You mean like this

Throughout the 2016 campaign, Trump repeatedly insisted that he had not done business in Russia “in years.” Trump issued highly specific denials on July 26, October 9, and October 26 of that year. He denied any Russian business connections in the year after the election, too, on January 11, February 16, and May 11. In fact, as abundant written evidence corroborates, Trump was actively pursuing a Trump Tower Moscow project all through the first year of his presidential campaign, from summer 2015 until the deal collapsed in summer 2016. Trump was seeking a huge payday from the Russian state while he was running to head the American state, a story broken by The Washington Post on August 27, 2017.

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Old 11-22-2019, 04:20 PM   #7
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Fake news ingested by you
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Old 11-22-2019, 05:16 PM   #8
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hunter is more fun than billy carter...
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Old 11-23-2019, 04:17 PM   #9
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Those Republican talking points about Ukraine we’ve been hearing?

Turns out they were written in Moscow

And they keep getting pushed by Putin’s Puppet
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Old 11-23-2019, 05:29 PM   #10
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Those Republican talking points about Ukraine we’ve been hearing?

Turns out they were written in Moscow

And they keep getting pushed by Putin’s Puppet
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This really is the most important part of the story. Putin is rapidly advancing his foreign policy objectives with very little effort because Trump, Nunes, Dangles, Jim etc... are all willing and active participants.

It’s all Russia First for them.
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Old 11-23-2019, 06:01 PM   #11
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This really is the most important part of the story. Putin is rapidly advancing his foreign policy objectives with very little effort because Trump, Nunes, Dangles, Jim etc... are all willing and active participants.

It’s all Russia First for them.
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Spence, it wasn't that long ago when Mitt Romney said Russia was a threat, Obama mocked him for it, and we all know that Obama's joke made you swoon. Funny how that worked out. Can you admit that Romney was right, and Obama was wrong?
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Old 11-23-2019, 06:10 PM   #12
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Spence, it wasn't that long ago when Mitt Romney said Russia was a threat, Obama mocked him for it, and we all know that Obama's joke made you swoon. Funny how that worked out. Can you admit that Romney was right, and Obama was wrong?
But bit obama really thats the best you can do
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Old 11-23-2019, 07:25 PM   #13
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But bit obama really thats the best you can do
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And the best you can do in response, is to go "duh".
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Old 11-24-2019, 07:14 AM   #14
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Spence, it wasn't that long ago when Mitt Romney said Russia was a threat, Obama mocked him for it, and we all know that Obama's joke made you swoon. Funny how that worked out. Can you admit that Romney was right, and Obama was wrong?
On this issue he was wrong, yes.
Trump has done nothing but made it worse, and has further enabled Putin to carry on.

Bryan

Originally Posted by #^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&
"For once I agree with Spence. UGH. I just hope I don't get the urge to go start buying armani suits to wear in my shop"
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Old 11-24-2019, 09:58 AM   #15
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On this issue he was wrong, yes.
Trump has done nothing but made it worse, and has further enabled Putin to carry on.
i note that spence didn’t respond
The left loved Obama’s
mockery of Romney, ate it up, they thought it was awesome. Spence was likely weak in the knees.

i agree trump is making it worse.
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Old 11-23-2019, 07:16 PM   #16
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This really is the most important part of the story. Putin is rapidly advancing his foreign policy objectives with very little effort because Trump, Nunes, Dangles, Jim etc... are all willing and active participants.

It’s all Russia First for them.
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This is snowflake logic at its finest. Glad you got off the field long enough to offer what can only be considered as typical progressive thought process.
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PRO CHOICE REPUBLICAN
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Old 11-24-2019, 05:52 AM   #17
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This is snowflake logic at its finest. Glad you got off the field long enough to offer what can only be considered as typical progressive thought process.
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So your considered opinion is that our intelligence services are driven by a progressive agenda and Floridaman’s Ukraine theories are correct, that his actions in Syria, NATO, Far East, Africa etc have not enabled Putin to increase his sphere of influence
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Old 11-24-2019, 07:59 AM   #18
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Russia is loving the Trump era of USA infighting and they keep feeding Trump, Rudy and now apparently idiot Nunes the conspiracy theories they eat like candy; or in Trumps case like Cheetos. Russia is a failing economy relying almost exclusively on oil and Trump gives them room to expand, he loves his Dictator buds. China bud might get help from Trump on the Hong Kong resolution, but that’s what friends do for friends. NK bud got his evil empire legitimized on the world stage and we got nada, but friends do for friends right?
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