OTW "Striper Cup Tourney" Format is Irresponsible to the Fishery

[NIB]

Originally Posted by beamie

Unfortunately, since there are big prizes involved that 50 pounder will go imediately on ice until the next week when it can be weighed.

Welcome to the land of tournaments.

[Karl F]

A Question for Big Dave.. How does the Dept. of Marine Fisheries, track the recreational numbers, and how accurate are they?

How many recreational fishermen have kept track of their numbers and reported them to the state, independent of any poll taking?

I have participated once, in that poll, when a volunteer approached me in my camper, years ago. I listened in awe, as he was given artificial numbers from a couple of others, having a little fun with the guy. It was obvious, with the choked laughter he was getting BS'd, he was even smiling, as he was writing. And, in the several years since, I have not seen anyone else out polling, where and when I fish.

I have been told, by a person from the Dept., that those numbers, at best, are a guess, based on a small percentage, that are polled.
At least the comms. have weigh slips.

[NIB]

[QUOTE=JohnR].

Correct me if I'm wrong but the state allocations are based on perceived pressure as there are not landing receipts from every angler on every trip to give hard numbers. So they use their estimates from their dosckside / shoreside studies and guestimate a total catch and compare that to what they feel the biomass can manage and be sustainable. QUOTE]


We call this Vodoo math.Every yr.in Vodoo math they are able to minipulate the numbers in order to give us the the Maximun sustainable yield.In nj we where able to go back to 2 fish because of a .01 percent difference in Vodoo math.Although i see more bigger fish today i think the past few yrs the fisherey has gotten worse.Its hard to support a tourney that promotes a 2 per week kill totals.

Sorry, I love tourneys and The pins could mean something to someone when I'm long gone (probably not but u never know)but at 2 per week for 16 weeks its tough.on the individual side I think someone could easily do 32-20 lbers as a average.Thats 640lbs.That could be a conservitive amount.take a small number in a NE tournament like 100 anglers,say they average 500 lbs.Thats just the individual end.when u add in clubs an do the math across it adds up quick.Will it make a difference in the 9 million taken in Mass according to the vodoo math.Who can say for sure.Its just not the type of thing I feel I should be supporting.The downside is not a option for me striper fishing is my life.I agree the tournament needs a numbers limit, DZ suggested 3 for the clubs.U could do the same for the individual i think That limits the lottery.It is for the grand prize part a lottery anyways.Perhaps top 5 would'nt hurt either clubs an individual..I thought the old tourney had some kinda numbers limit for the clubs like top 10.??
I think ball type lottery thing for inividual would be most fair.Like the NBA Draft lottery #1 angler gets 10 balls an #2 gets 9 an so on.Some simple minds are thinkin what about ties an so on.U don't have to use balls. It can be done with a computer to work out the finer calculations of a multiple entries format.More than just weigh one in over 35 lbs an get a chance to win.This method rewards the top angler with the best chance.If I weigh in 8- 30's why should someone who gets one have the same chance.thats the way it is as far as I see it.
They more than likely won't make any changes this yr.Guess I will have to wait till next yr

[Flaptail]

Originally Posted by Slipknot

What's wrong with you people?



enough with the insults and personal stuff Steve, I know someone assumed something, but you don't need to escalate things.
It is not making you look good and the board doesn't need that kind of crap. Debate the subject without name calling please.

Bruce I respect you but no one, not you, JohnR or anyone else is going to stop me from saying what I want when I want especially if someone tries to question my integrity. If the board doesn't like it it too bad for you all but I will not back down from something like that.

Someone questioning that will be responded to, plain and simple. Unlike many others here I do not see things in gray but black and white and will not cudgel and cojole others with happy feelings so we can all "just get along" therefore no apologies to anyone, I stand where I stand, you all can see it with no illusions.

I have been at this way too long and have seen many and been involved in many things related to Striped Bass, thier stock levels and the effect some assume this Tournament would have on the fishery.
People that have only been in the game for five or ten years have no idea of the real scope of this fishery, who it affects and what effects it.

Making that assumption on there part is akin to Hillary Clinton moving to New York and running for senate, she has no real basis, no deep connection to the real issues. I am in it, I still belive in it I have no qualms about it. And I will not tolerate proposed innuendo and questioning of my integrity. I do not care who likes or dislikes me, I sleep well every night.

[Krispy]

$

[Slipknot]

I'm glad you replied Steve. I don't blame you one bit for defending yourself when he made it personal by questioning your integrity. I would have done the same thing but as a moderator I would have left the namecalling out , that is all.So that's why I said something. I could see it coming when I read it

Back to the discussion of irresponsibility now.............

I guess we'll wait and see how it all turns out this year. I doubt that many people will be weighing in 2 fish per week and I also wonder if OTW is planning to make public the total amounts of fish entered at the end.
After reading some of the replies here, I come to the conclusion that some of you need to read the rules as to how the prizes are awarded.

[Mike P]

Look, I love stripers as much as anyone, but I don't get this sacred cow mindset. Some people have no problems killing bluefish even if they don't keep them. Some people keep their limit of fluke, flounder, tautog, scup, sea bass, cod, pollock or haddock (if they lucky enough to catch a legal one) every time they head out. How many people will head out in a month or so and fill a couple of totes with mackerel to freeze and use as bait the rest of the season? Not a single one of the fisheries I listed is as healthy, numbers wise, as the bass fishery. Yet we wring our hands over a tournament that was conceived for the right reasons, because it'll result in dead bass. Post a picture of a 10# fluke on the internet, or an 8# tautog, and everyone goes "wow, nice fish". Not a single person ever says, "shame on you for keeping it, you should have released it". Post a picture of a 40# bass, and dollars to donuts some yahoo is going to criticize you for not releasing it. Yet, I'd venture to say there are tons more 40 bass out there than there are 10# fluke, and much more damage is being done to the fishery by killing 10# fluke. Fluke and tautog were put here to be killed and eaten, in a lot of your minds. Stripers, I guess, were put here to be worshipped.

If you practice catch and release with keeper groundfish, more power to you, and your opinions here have the same merit. If you don't, well, maybe a look in the mirror is in order before you criticize OTW and their staffers for hosting what some of you think is a striper Holocaust.

[Homerun04]

Agreed....format needs some re-thinking

[Nebe]

This is just me, but i say let OTW water run the tourney the way they want to this year. Hopefully, they take note that so many people out there are concerned with bass mortality and will change the format next year. To assume that we on this board have the pull to change what they do is not reality. It will take many many many people sending them letters and e-mails to get them to budge. This thread is a good basis for them to go by, but this thread will probably not be their bible when or if they make the new rules. What will be the decision maker for them in the end is how much $ goes into their coffers.. so if you dont agree, dont join. If you agree with them, then sign up. If you disagree with everything OTW does, then cancel your subscription. Personally, i am not going to enter- i dont want to kill anymore fish with the hopes of winning somethign for it. If i kill a fish it will be for a dinner party.

one more thing- a percentage of people that would kill a bass to win this tourney would have killed the fish anyway for food or for the taxidermist.

[likwid]

Originally Posted by Nebe

This is just me, but i say let OTW water run the tourney the way they want to this year.

Do we really want to hope they can learn from their mistakes?

[Flaptail]

Originally Posted by Nebe

This is just me, but i say let OTW water run the tourney the way they want to this year. Hopefully, they take note that so many people out there are concerned with bass mortality and will change the format next year. To assume that we on this board have the pull to change what they do is not reality. It will take many many many people sending them letters and e-mails to get them to budge. This thread is a good basis for them to go by, but this thread will probably not be their bible when or if they make the new rules. What will be the decision maker for them in the end is how much $ goes into their coffers.. so if you dont agree, dont join. If you agree with them, then sign up. If you disagree with everything OTW does, then cancel your subscription. Personally, i am not going to enter- i dont want to kill anymore fish with the hopes of winning somethign for it. If i kill a fish it will be for a dinner party.

one more thing- a percentage of people that would kill a bass to win this tourney would have killed the fish anyway for food or for the taxidermist.

I am still planning on coming down to fish with you and see the studio.

[JohnR]

Steve - I respect your opinion even when I don't agree with it. How's that ?

I just think this tourney could be more conservation minded than it is as it stands now. If this year's rules are cast in concrete then perhaps they could have been discussed prior in a more open format (I can't see any reason why they would not have been discussed before and I believe OTW took it seriously when they did).

If S-B fields a team, do we impose our own little extra limit? Be it a minimum size? Or lmiting fish weighed in over the course of the tourney? Will that put a disadvantage on our people as they enter?

Thanks,

John

[spence]

Originally Posted by JohnR

If S-B fields a team, do we impose our own little extra limit? Be it a minimum size? Or lmiting fish weighed in over the course of the tourney? Will that put a disadvantage on our people as they enter?

Sort of like running a campaign and pledging not to take soft money

-spence

[Skitterpop]

Yumpin Yee Zuss

More good info. pros and cons.... I`m more confused then when I started here but this has been great discussion!

I hope to be healthier to fish later this season and I sure could use any of the prizes especially a chance at the larger ones which I would sell. I am too friggen fickle but value some of these lifetime salt fishers opinions very much.

We do not have a choice about LETTING THEM RUN IT THE WAY THEY WANT at this point and hopefully they will change the format next time around if they decide to stay in it.

If I do sign up it will be as an individual and I`ll only register big bass if I`m fortunate enough to catch one.

And by the way I think OTW is a great magazine.

Mike

[Pete F.]

Is'nt there a song that goes "It's my party and I'll play if I want to...

It is their tournament and as most things in this world work just follow the money. If it does what they want this year they won't change it, if it does'nt they will end or adjust it. Each of us is free to vote with our dollars by entering or not.

I do have a question: Was there an entry fee for the Schaefer?

I'm not entering for a number of reasons, because living in VT its too far for me to have good odds, there is no surf division and I have some other things I don't like about the rules.

Then again I don't buy lottery tickets either and Hopefully I'll catch a 80# fish this year because I did'nt enter.

[Flaptail]

Originally Posted by bluefishercat

Is'nt there a song that goes "It's my party and I'll play if I want to...

It is their tournament and as most things in this world work just follow the money. If it does what they want this year they won't change it, if it does'nt they will end or adjust it. Each of us is free to vote with our dollars by entering or not.

I do have a question: Was there an entry fee for the Schaefer?

I'm not entering for a number of reasons, because living in VT its too far for me to have good odds, there is no surf division and I have some other things I don't like about the rules.

Then again I don't buy lottery tickets either and Hopefully I'll catch a 80# fish this year because I did'nt enter.

No there was no entry fee for schaefer but you had to be registered by a certain point in the year and yes of course clubs can and could create there own set of "rules within the rules" for their participation.

Schaefer spent an untold amount of dough putting it on and had a staff with a director just to run it. It got to be too much for them. Back then the public sentement towards drinking, beer advertising and such was much more favorable and they were making money hand over fist.

[beamie]

Originally Posted by Mike P

Look, I love stripers as much as anyone, but I don't get this sacred cow mindset. Some people have no problems killing bluefish even if they don't keep them. Some people keep their limit of fluke, flounder, tautog, scup, sea bass, cod, pollock or haddock (if they lucky enough to catch a legal one) every time they head out. How many people will head out in a month or so and fill a couple of totes with mackerel to freeze and use as bait the rest of the season? Not a single one of the fisheries I listed is as healthy, numbers wise, as the bass fishery. Yet we wring our hands over a tournament that was conceived for the right reasons, because it'll result in dead bass. Post a picture of a 10# fluke on the internet, or an 8# tautog, and everyone goes "wow, nice fish". Not a single person ever says, "shame on you for keeping it, you should have released it". Post a picture of a 40# bass, and dollars to donuts some yahoo is going to criticize you for not releasing it. Yet, I'd venture to say there are tons more 40 bass out there than there are 10# fluke, and much more damage is being done to the fishery by killing 10# fluke. Fluke and tautog were put here to be killed and eaten, in a lot of your minds. Stripers, I guess, were put here to be worshipped.

If you practice catch and release with keeper groundfish, more power to you, and your opinions here have the same merit. If you don't, well, maybe a look in the mirror is in order before you criticize OTW and their staffers for hosting what some of you think is a striper Holocaust.

Well said Mike P. This is the point I was trying to make with my first post on this subject.!

[Saltheart]

Sure they kill xteen million pounds a year and this tourney will not change that significantly. Sure people take ground fish and mackeral and blues etc. Are you supposed to throw in the towel cause its an uphill battle?

The thing that will make a difference is an accumulation of choices over their fishing years by many people.

If you simply look at the reality of the poundage taken per state and compare the pounds in this tourney , you may say what difference does it make. However , if you can step back and have a vision ( guys like Bob Pond had a vision , not a magic wand) then you can see that discussing the conservation issues is good to make people aware , the more people are aware , the better for the fishery.

Opposing this tourney and any tourney that has not taken conservation into consideration when they write their rules and determine the format of these events is part of acting on that vision. One small step at a time , and eventually you have walked a mile.


There is no one thing anyone can do to suddenly cut the Xteen million pound number in half . What we can do is one person at a time , make the right decision; one kid at a time , teach them conservation ; and one tournament at a time , oppose thoughtless rules and fish killing formats.

It all adds up and you can see that if you have a vision.

Act to make that vision a reality by making the right choices , on small matters. Over your carreer as a fisherman and over the carreers of people with whom you share the vision , it will add up.

[NIB]

Steve ur integrity will never be in question with me.There can be no doubt on the matter.Ur one of the most knowledgable well spoken guests to the site. A bonus for sure.But.(don't u just love that word)
When u blow a gasket it's funny.
When I read THE post i was like "oh boy this is gonna be good"
an then u replied an I was
Keep up the good work.

[Bake Mellow]

Take your ball and go home if you don't like how the other kids play...

[BigFish]

My vision is to fish the tournament accordingly.....with good conservation practices and thoughtfulness in regards to what fish I choose to keep and how many fish I choose to keep! Many folks I am positive will fish it the same and the folks who choose to abuse the fisheries and take more than they need....well they are not going to change regardless of the situation! You are all making good points and obviously we all share the same passion for conservation of the striped bass and the same concerns in regards to the same. The cullers, the poachers who take more than they are allowed by law and the folks who practice poor catch and release and conservation practices will always be the problem. Sure the rules may need tweaking...but given time I am sure OTW will do just that. Police the way in which you fish it and hope others do the same for now......no laws have been broken and all is in bounds and really all we are worried about are those who abuse it......and as long as they adhere to the 2 fish per week rule I don't think it is all that bad......just the accrued points system that needs refinement. You are after all allowed 2 fish a day in Mass........you guys don't seem to be doing nearly as much screaming about that! Maybe you should!

[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by Flaptail

No there was no entry fee for schaefer but you had to be registered by a certain point in the year and yes of course clubs can and could create there own set of "rules within the rules" for their participation.

Schaefer spent an untold amount of dough putting it on and had a staff with a director just to run it. It got to be too much for them. Back then the public sentement towards drinking, beer advertising and such was much more favorable and they were making money hand over fist.

Thanks, that is what I guessed

[MakoMike]

Originally Posted by Bedford Blues

Fishing for Bass should not be made a competitive event.
the Stiper population is no where near the level of the 1950's
or 1960's and early 70's. i like OTW but this is a mistake.

Yeah, your right about that. The current population is much higher than it was back then!

[BigFish]

Fishing for bass is and has been a competitive event for some time! All the clubs have a club derby to my knowledge...MSBA, RISSA, MBBA, Plum Island to name a few.......all require fish be weighed and measured on certified scales....no catch and release there! How many of you nay sayers fish your club derbies? Explain to me the difference one from the other?

[Cranium]

From the OTW website:


Striper Cup Tournament T-Shirt Produced by The Black Dog

• 2006 Commemorative Striper Cup Pin

• Invitation to the Striper Festival at the end of the contest

• The chance to win a 2006 Grady White 180 Center Console!


INDIVIDUALS:

• ALL participants in attendance at the Striper Festival will be eligible to win a 2006 Grady White 180 Center Console.
The winner will be drawn during the Striper Festival, the invitation-only party at the Harpoon Brewery in October. Five keys will be drawn and given at random to attendees of the “Striper Festival.”


Black Nickel Pin Bronze Pin

Silver Pin Gold Pin

• Catch qualifying fish to enter 30-, 40-, 50- & 60-Pounder Striper Clubs. These accomplishments will be recorded, and the anglers' names will be listed in OTW and on our Web site. Each fisherman entering a fish into a club will receive a Harpoon Pounder Club pin, signifying his accomplishment.

• Angler Of The Year
Trophy will be awarded to the angler who accrues the most points over the season in both the boat and shore divisions.

• Striper Of The Year Award
Trophy will go to the largest striper weighed in during the tourney.

• Monthly Winners (5) -The angler with the largest striper each month will be eligible to win the Grand Prize 4x4.

• Weekly Winners (20)
-Weekly Boat Angler Winners (Largest fish of the week)
Rod and Reel Combos
-Weekly Surf Angler Winners (Largest fish of the week)
Rod and Reel Combos

• Junior Anglers
-Weekly winners (20) receive OTW prize packs with subscription
-Monthly Winners (5) receive rod & reel combos
-Monthly Winners (5) eligible for the fully outfitted kayak

CLUBS:

• The Striper Cup
The club that accrues the most points over the course of the tournament will get to drink from the “Striper Cup” for one year. The winning club must present the trophy to the following year’s winner.
• State Winners
Trophies will be awarded by state to the club that has accrued the most points in each state (NY,CT,RI,MA,NH


Am I missing something. As I read the prize description, everyone who enters the torney has a chance to win the Grady. It is not based on points or size of fish, you just have to show up to the "striperfest" (I bet they would get better attendance if they called it the "stripperfest" ). In order to win the 4x4 you must be one of the largest striper of the month winners, a total of five. The only area points come into play is angler of the year/club of the year and state.

Dont get me wrong, I do not want people to take 2 small fish a week. Based on history, I only catch 3-4 fish a year that would qualify for a pin or prize. I have no desire to accrue points and win a trophy for bragging rights or any other reason. Lets hope the clubs/individuals will realize the impact of taking so many small fish and decide not participate.

[Krispy]

Originally Posted by BigFish

Explain to me the difference one from the other?

Cumulative year-long poundage. Whichever club kills the most fish wins.
DZ made a great suggestion in having clubs only submit the top 7 or 5 or 3 fish, that way anything not meeting the mark doesnt need to be killed.
I would really like to fish this tournament, but have reservations with the club fish kill, and the early ending time frame
Actually, re-reading the rules, I'll probly just enter as an individual. I interested in seeing what others "sharpies" are actually catching in the surf

[Cranium]

OOpps
I meant to say "participate in that particular part of the tourney" I am going to sign up and look to catch a big fat monster bass.

[Saltheart]

The big difference here is the cumulative poundage format. It encourages large quantities of fish be killed to make points.

I got no problem with tournaments and think they are fun. I got no problem with taking fish home to eat. I got a problem with killing fish to accumulate points in a tourney. The format of this tourney is what I'm protesting , not the tourney concept.

I'm really surprised at the number of posts that say something to the affect that ...."well we already do this wrong and that wrong. Why get upset about doing this tourney wrong?"

Its like saying...."I already cheated on my wife last year. I did it again last Christmas , what's wrong with cheating on her again tomorrow?" Just ask your wife if she goes for that logic??

[MakoMike]

Originally Posted by JohnR

Yes the regulations clearly state that BUT assuming if everyone were able to catch and then to take 2 legal fish per day / 14 per week, there would be a SIGNIFICANT impact on the fishery.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the state allocations are based on perceived pressure as there are not landing receipts from every angler on every trip to give hard numbers. So they use their estimates from their dosckside / shoreside studies and guestimate a total catch and compare that to what they feel the biomass can manage and be sustainable. A couple years ago they might say to Mass DMF that they can allocatate for grins and giggles 1 million pounds of bass and Mass then would need to come up with regulations to meet that target. For years Mass had 1 fish @ 28 inches and based on the numbers available at the time, Mass had an uncaught balance of about 14% under the quota. So Mass for example could have added 2 fish @ 28 for say 3 months of the season as they felt that would use the last 14% of their allowable quota. When Mass went to 2 @ 28 they felt the chances of one person keeping the second fish was significantly less than keeping the first. And they assigned some number like 10% of trips would catch a keeper in the first place...

Sorry for the ramble but 2 fish per day per angler for 7 days a week for the entire season would really harm the fishery.

John,
Not quite right. Striped bass is managed on a coastwide basis, i.e. there is no allocation of the quota to any individual state. ASMFC sets the maximum creel limit, all states have the option to use a more restrictive limit. But your main point is correct, in that effort is factored into the equasion and if all fishermen went out and killed two fish a day, it would have a severe detrimental impact on the fishery.

[JohnR]

Originally Posted by MakoMike

John,
Not quite right. Striped bass is managed on a coastwide basis, i.e. there is no allocation of the quota to any individual state. ASMFC sets the maximum creel limit, all states have the option to use a more restrictive limit. But your main point is correct, in that effort is factored into the equasion and if all fishermen went out and killed two fish a day, it would have a severe detrimental impact on the fishery.

Actually - I reread my post and it was a little wishy-washy but correct where it talks about how the states managed quotas before Ammendment 6 hence the "couple years ago". This is what allowed Mass to have a 1/day with a a bonus period so to speak with a time for 2/day under the old rules - they chose not to implement it but they could have... Also allowed other states to implement slot limits. All were based on allowable numbers from ASMFC with the state to decide how to achieve under that quota.