Putins Letter to the US

[Jackbass]

This is an Op/Ed piece written by Putin to the US citizens and politicians. Makes a lot of sense doesn't it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/12/op...=fb-share&_r=0

[Nebe]

Couldn't agree more with Putin.
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[spence]

I love it, now Americans are being swayed by the master manipulator...and a commie at that. I wonder if Bush can still see into his soul.

This is the same Putin who accused the US of masterminding the Georgian War for political purposes?

Here's the translation of his op-ed. I don't give a #^&#^&#^&#^& about the people of Syria, I just NEED them to continue spending billions on Russian arms and giving me access to the Med.

-spence

[Jackbass]

Ok so you and The legislative branch are now in favor of a "surgical strike" on Syria the rest of the world is opposed and in favor of a diplomatic resolution. Ok
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[Piscator]

Originally Posted by spence

I love it, now Americans are being swayed by the master manipulator...and a commie at that. I wonder if Bush can still see into his soul.

This is the same Putin who accused the US of masterminding the Georgian War for political purposes?

Here's the translation of his op-ed. I don't give a #^&#^&#^&#^& about the people of Syria, I just NEED them to continue spending billions on Russian arms and giving me access to the Med.

-spence

Bottom line is that Putin is winning the chess game with Obama right now. Putin is "manipulating" Obama.

[buckman]

Originally Posted by spence

I love it, now Americans are being swayed by the master manipulator...and a commie at that. I wonder if Bush can still see into his soul.

This is the same Putin who accused the US of masterminding the Georgian War for political purposes?

Here's the translation of his op-ed. I don't give a #^&#^&#^&#^& about the people of Syria, I just NEED them to continue spending billions on Russian arms and giving me access to the Med.

-spence

I couldn't agree more. Putin's a slime ball. His oped is full of hypocraci. Obama has simply been out foxed by a wolf. This is not a game to be played by amatures .
I'm afraid for America. We can fix the economy and health care, no matter the damage left in Obamas wake but this is serious sheet.
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[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by buckman

This is not a game to be played by amatures .
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But Obama went to Harvard. Doesn't that necessarily mean he's brilliant?

[buckman]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

But Obama went to Harvard. Doesn't that necessarily mean he's brilliant?

Quite the opposite . MIT maybe
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[Nebe]

I seriously think that the rebels let loose that gas. Think about it. You are desperate for help. Your beliefs do not value life very much with huge rewards on a glorious death. Why not?
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[Jackbass]

Originally Posted by spence

I love it, now Americans are being swayed by the master manipulator...and a commie at that.

-spence

No that already happened in 2004 and 2008.
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[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by buckman

Quite the opposite . MIT maybe
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Believe me, I was being sarcastic. Though I would agree about MIT.

What Obama is learning is that there is a big, big difference between (1) actually doing things, and (2) talking about doing things in an Ivy League faculty room. One cannot get beaten any more thoroughly than Obama got beaten here, although he will likely save himself the humiliation of having his own Senate reject his proposal, whatever it was to begin with.

I also love how in Obama's speech this week, he talked about the nobility of America's being willing to not only help draft rules for countries to obey, but that we were willing to enforce those rules. Obama sang our praises.

How the heck do you reconcile that with his 2008 European apology tour, where he bemoaned Americas's history of being arrogant, divisive, and dismissive?

How long, O lord?

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Nebe

I seriously think that the rebels let loose that gas. Think about it. You are desperate for help. Your beliefs do not value life very much with huge rewards on a glorious death. Why not?
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If the rebels had the gas, there's no reason to assume they wouldn't be capable of releasing it. I don't know that they had access to the weapons that were used.

There's also no reason to assume that Assad wouldn't do it, as he killed 100,000 citizens the old-fashioned way over the years. What's another 2,000 with gas?

[spence]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

If the rebels had the gas, there's no reason to assume they wouldn't be capable of releasing it. I don't know that they had access to the weapons that were used.

I believe the UN report is going to blast Putin's remarks about it being a rebel attack.

From what I've read the volume of gas and munitions used aren't congruent with any known rebel capacity...even if they do have some access to chem weapons.
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[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

I believe the UN report is going to blast Putin's remarks about it being a rebel attack.

From what I've read the volume of gas and munitions used aren't congruent with any known rebel capacity...even if they do have some access to chem weapons.
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For what it's worth, I have heard the same things. There's also zero reason to doubt that Putin would have fabricated the lie that it was the rebels, since that serves his interests and he is a lunatic capable of anything. Who knows what to believe? That is a sinister part of the world, and God help any little kid unlucky enough to be born there.

[spence]

What I find amazing is that a former KGB agent seeks to further divide Americans, on freaking 9/11 no less, purely for the national interests of a communist country....and the hatred for Obama, our President is so great nobody is willing to stand up and call him out.

Where are all the flag wavers? Where are the blogs blasting Putin's hypocrisy, manipulation and self interest?

Anybody proud to still be an American?
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[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

What I find amazing is that a former KGB agent seeks to further divide Americans, on freaking 9/11 no less, purely for the national interests of a communist country....and the hatred for Obama, our President is so great nobody is willing to stand up and call him out.

Where are all the flag wavers? Where are the blogs blasting Putin's hypocrisy, manipulation and self interest?

Anybody proud to still be an American?
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I think you're mis-reading the tea leaves here. Americans do not like what Putin is doing. I don't hear any rational American saying that Putin is a nicer man than Obama. What we're saying is, Obama came across as an absolutely incompetent, clueless, buffoon on this issue, and Putin is clobbering him. If I state that Putin is winning on this one issue, that doesn't mean I like Putin more than I like Obama.

It's your love of Obama that is clouding your vision on this, not my contempt for Obama. The anti-Obama folks here, I htink, are seeing this for what it is...another reduction in American supremacy at the hands of Obama.

[Piscator]

Originally Posted by spence

What I find amazing is that a former KGB agent seeks to further divide Americans, on freaking 9/11 no less, purely for the national interests of a communist country....and the hatred for Obama, our President is so great nobody is willing to stand up and call him out.

Where are all the flag wavers? Where are the blogs blasting Putin's hypocrisy, manipulation and self interest?

Anybody proud to still be an American?
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Yes, very proud to be an American. Not proud of our President though. How would Regan have played this one……………..

[buckman]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

I think you're mis-reading the tea leaves here. Americans do not like what Putin is doing. I don't hear any rational American saying that Putin is a nicer man than Obama. What we're saying is, Obama came across as an absolutely incompetent, clueless, buffoon on this issue, and Putin is clobbering him. If I state that Putin is winning on this one issue, that doesn't mean I like Putin more than I like Obama.

It's your love of Obama that is clouding your vision on this, not my contempt for Obama. The anti-Obama folks here, I htink, are seeing this for what it is...another reduction in American supremacy at the hands of Obama.

True that Jim!
In fact the ones that are actually giving Putin credibility are sitting in the Whitehouse or Genova
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[spence]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

I think you're mis-reading the tea leaves here. Americans do not like what Putin is doing.

Where's the outrage?

-spence

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

Where's the outrage?

-spence

Everywhere. Which Americans are saying that Putin is a swell guy? No one is denying that Assad and Putin are a pair of unsavory characters. The fact is, those 2 unsavory characters, on this issue, are opening up a big can of whoop-ass on Obama.

You say you don't like what Putin is doing, particularly near the anniversary of 09/11, and I agree with you. Just because I think Putin is a maniac, doesn't mean that I cannot recognize that he is beating Obama on this one issue.

Putin is despicable. He is a despicable man who out-smarted Obama in this case, and any somewhat-rational person can see that.

[spence]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

Putin is despicable. He is a despicable man who out-smarted Obama in this case, and any somewhat-rational person can see that.

I'm not seeing much outrage.

As for outsmarting, just because they're getting the Admin to react doesn't mean they're winning.

Obama has some breathing room which he needed. Syria has fessed up about even owning chem weapons and already agreed in principal to give them up.

If Russia tries to play this as they'll only support a UN Mandate if there's no condition for force I think this will only galvanize International support. The genie is out of the bottle, you can't stuff it back in...

-spence

[buckman]

Originally Posted by spence

I'm not seeing much outrage.

As for outsmarting, just because they're getting the Admin to react doesn't mean they're winning.

Obama has some breathing room which he needed. Syria has fessed up about even owning chem weapons and already agreed in principal to give them up.

If Russia tries to play this as they'll only support a UN Mandate if there's no condition for force I think this will only galvanize International support. The genie is out of the bottle, you can't stuff it back in...

-spence

You believe in genie's too??
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[detbuch]

Originally Posted by spence

I'm not seeing much outrage.

Pointless sarcasm.

As for outsmarting, just because they're getting the Admin to react doesn't mean they're winning.

Debating on whether Obama or Putin is winning is about as meaningless as debating on whether Assad or the "rebels" should win. Or, for that matter, whether Democrats or progressive Republicans should win. One, in each case, is a lighter version of the other.

Obama has some breathing room which he needed. Syria has fessed up about even owning chem weapons and already agreed in principal to give them up.

It seems that he is in constant need of breathing room. To do what?

Does Syria "fessing up" to what everyone already knew give Obama "breathing room"? Is Assad's denying he had chem weapons a whole lot different than him agreeing "in principal" to give them up? What is stopping Assad and the despised Putin from some trickery to pretend he has given them up? Oh, that's right, the "International community" will see to it that all is done correctly.

Right.

If Russia tries to play this as they'll only support a UN Mandate if there's no condition for force I think this will only galvanize International support. The genie is out of the bottle, you can't stuff it back in...

-spence

How does the "International Community" overcome a Russian veto? And does this "International Community," after what it considers an Iraq fiasco which it supported, really want to back a mandate with force?

Yeah, the genie of supposedly disastrous military intervention in Middle East squabbles is out of the bottle. Maybe Obama, the genius genie can stuff it back in.

[spence]

Originally Posted by detbuch

How does the "International Community" overcome a Russian veto? And does this "International Community," after what it considers an Iraq fiasco which it supported, really want to back a mandate with force?

I think Russia have painted themselves into a corner. What good is a resolution to enforce disarmament that doesn't have repercussions if Syria fails to comply? There may be some concessions but I think Russia will ultimately comply while declaring a diplomatic victory.

As for Iraq, there was no UN mandate for force. The fiasco started when Bush warned the inspectors off and went in anyway.

-spence

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

I'm not seeing much outrage.

As for outsmarting, just because they're getting the Admin to react doesn't mean they're winning.

Obama has some breathing room which he needed. Syria has fessed up about even owning chem weapons and already agreed in principal to give them up.

If Russia tries to play this as they'll only support a UN Mandate if there's no condition for force I think this will only galvanize International support. The genie is out of the bottle, you can't stuff it back in...

-spence

"just because they're getting the Admin to react doesn't mean they're winning."

Spence, I agree...just because Putin is getting a reaction does not mean he's winning. What does mean he is winning, is that Putin is getting the outcome he wanted (Assad stays put with no price to pay), and Obama has egg on his face, since no one was supporting Obama's plan, whatever that was.

"Obama has some breathing room which he needed"

And why did he need it? Because there was no support for his plan.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

As for Iraq, there was no UN mandate for force. The fiasco started when Bush warned the inspectors off and went in anyway.

-spence

You need to re-think where you get your information. Iraq repeatedly kicked out the weapons inspectors, in blatant violation of the UN treaty ending the first war.

[spence]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

You need to re-think where you get your information. Iraq repeatedly kicked out the weapons inspectors, in blatant violation of the UN treaty ending the first war.

But did the UN ever legally allow for the use of force? I don't think the no fly zones were explicitly stated, nor was Operation Desert Fox, nor was the 2003 war.

-spence

[spence]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

Spence, I agree...just because Putin is getting a reaction does not mean he's winning. What does mean he is winning, is that Putin is getting the outcome he wanted (Assad stays put with no price to pay), and Obama has egg on his face, since no one was supporting Obama's plan, whatever that was.

If Assad gives up his WMD he becomes more vulnerable which means Russia's interests are more at risk even if they buy more conventional weapons.

It could be a calculation, perhaps they think intervention could stall the civil war and radicalization of rebels is a bigger risk.

-spence

[scottw]

Originally Posted by spence

Where's the outrage?

-spence

here's some outrage from across the pond....



Henninger: The Laurel and Hardy Presidency

After the Syrian slapstick, it's time to sober up U.S. foreign policy.
By DANIEL HENNINGER

After writing in the London Telegraph that Monday was "the worst day for U.S. and wider Western diplomacy since records began," former British ambassador Charles Crawford asked simply: "How has this happened?"

On the answer, opinions might differ. Or maybe not. A consensus assessment of the past week's events could easily form around Oliver Hardy's famous lament to the compulsive bumbler Stan Laurel: "Here's another nice mess you've gotten us into!"

In the interplay between Barack Obama and John Kerry, it's not obvious which one is Laurel and which one is Hardy. But diplomatic slapstick is not funny. No one wants to live in a Laurel and Hardy presidency. In a Laurel and Hardy presidency, red lines vanish, shots across the bow are word balloons, and a display of U.S. power with the whole world watching is going to be "unbelievably small."

The past week was a perfect storm of American malfunction. Colliding at the center of a serious foreign-policy crisis was Barack Obama's manifest skills deficit, conservative animosity toward Mr. Obama, Republican distrust of his leadership, and the reflexive opportunism of politicians from Washington to Moscow.

It is Barack Obama's impulse to make himself and whatever is in his head the center of attention. By now, we are used to it. But this week he turned himself, the presidency and the United States into a spectacle. We were alternately shocked and agog at these events. Now the sobering-up has to begin.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...pinion_LEADTop

[scottw]

Originally Posted by spence

Anybody proud to still be an American?
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should anyone not be proud to "still be an American"? I imagine most are planning to still be an American for quite some time and proudly so, no matter how hard some try to diminish what it means to be an American or diminish America itself