Putins Letter to the US

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

What I find amazing is that a former KGB agent seeks to further divide Americans, on freaking 9/11 no less, purely for the national interests of a communist country....and the hatred for Obama, our President is so great nobody is willing to stand up and call him out.

Where are all the flag wavers? Where are the blogs blasting Putin's hypocrisy, manipulation and self interest?

Anybody proud to still be an American?
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I think you're mis-reading the tea leaves here. Americans do not like what Putin is doing. I don't hear any rational American saying that Putin is a nicer man than Obama. What we're saying is, Obama came across as an absolutely incompetent, clueless, buffoon on this issue, and Putin is clobbering him. If I state that Putin is winning on this one issue, that doesn't mean I like Putin more than I like Obama.

It's your love of Obama that is clouding your vision on this, not my contempt for Obama. The anti-Obama folks here, I htink, are seeing this for what it is...another reduction in American supremacy at the hands of Obama.

[buckman]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

I think you're mis-reading the tea leaves here. Americans do not like what Putin is doing. I don't hear any rational American saying that Putin is a nicer man than Obama. What we're saying is, Obama came across as an absolutely incompetent, clueless, buffoon on this issue, and Putin is clobbering him. If I state that Putin is winning on this one issue, that doesn't mean I like Putin more than I like Obama.

It's your love of Obama that is clouding your vision on this, not my contempt for Obama. The anti-Obama folks here, I htink, are seeing this for what it is...another reduction in American supremacy at the hands of Obama.

True that Jim!
In fact the ones that are actually giving Putin credibility are sitting in the Whitehouse or Genova
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[spence]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

I think you're mis-reading the tea leaves here. Americans do not like what Putin is doing.

Where's the outrage?

-spence

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

Where's the outrage?

-spence

Everywhere. Which Americans are saying that Putin is a swell guy? No one is denying that Assad and Putin are a pair of unsavory characters. The fact is, those 2 unsavory characters, on this issue, are opening up a big can of whoop-ass on Obama.

You say you don't like what Putin is doing, particularly near the anniversary of 09/11, and I agree with you. Just because I think Putin is a maniac, doesn't mean that I cannot recognize that he is beating Obama on this one issue.

Putin is despicable. He is a despicable man who out-smarted Obama in this case, and any somewhat-rational person can see that.

[spence]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

Putin is despicable. He is a despicable man who out-smarted Obama in this case, and any somewhat-rational person can see that.

I'm not seeing much outrage.

As for outsmarting, just because they're getting the Admin to react doesn't mean they're winning.

Obama has some breathing room which he needed. Syria has fessed up about even owning chem weapons and already agreed in principal to give them up.

If Russia tries to play this as they'll only support a UN Mandate if there's no condition for force I think this will only galvanize International support. The genie is out of the bottle, you can't stuff it back in...

-spence

[buckman]

Originally Posted by spence

I'm not seeing much outrage.

As for outsmarting, just because they're getting the Admin to react doesn't mean they're winning.

Obama has some breathing room which he needed. Syria has fessed up about even owning chem weapons and already agreed in principal to give them up.

If Russia tries to play this as they'll only support a UN Mandate if there's no condition for force I think this will only galvanize International support. The genie is out of the bottle, you can't stuff it back in...

-spence

You believe in genie's too??
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[detbuch]

Originally Posted by spence

I'm not seeing much outrage.

Pointless sarcasm.

As for outsmarting, just because they're getting the Admin to react doesn't mean they're winning.

Debating on whether Obama or Putin is winning is about as meaningless as debating on whether Assad or the "rebels" should win. Or, for that matter, whether Democrats or progressive Republicans should win. One, in each case, is a lighter version of the other.

Obama has some breathing room which he needed. Syria has fessed up about even owning chem weapons and already agreed in principal to give them up.

It seems that he is in constant need of breathing room. To do what?

Does Syria "fessing up" to what everyone already knew give Obama "breathing room"? Is Assad's denying he had chem weapons a whole lot different than him agreeing "in principal" to give them up? What is stopping Assad and the despised Putin from some trickery to pretend he has given them up? Oh, that's right, the "International community" will see to it that all is done correctly.

Right.

If Russia tries to play this as they'll only support a UN Mandate if there's no condition for force I think this will only galvanize International support. The genie is out of the bottle, you can't stuff it back in...

-spence

How does the "International Community" overcome a Russian veto? And does this "International Community," after what it considers an Iraq fiasco which it supported, really want to back a mandate with force?

Yeah, the genie of supposedly disastrous military intervention in Middle East squabbles is out of the bottle. Maybe Obama, the genius genie can stuff it back in.

[spence]

Originally Posted by detbuch

How does the "International Community" overcome a Russian veto? And does this "International Community," after what it considers an Iraq fiasco which it supported, really want to back a mandate with force?

I think Russia have painted themselves into a corner. What good is a resolution to enforce disarmament that doesn't have repercussions if Syria fails to comply? There may be some concessions but I think Russia will ultimately comply while declaring a diplomatic victory.

As for Iraq, there was no UN mandate for force. The fiasco started when Bush warned the inspectors off and went in anyway.

-spence

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

As for Iraq, there was no UN mandate for force. The fiasco started when Bush warned the inspectors off and went in anyway.

-spence

You need to re-think where you get your information. Iraq repeatedly kicked out the weapons inspectors, in blatant violation of the UN treaty ending the first war.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

I'm not seeing much outrage.

As for outsmarting, just because they're getting the Admin to react doesn't mean they're winning.

Obama has some breathing room which he needed. Syria has fessed up about even owning chem weapons and already agreed in principal to give them up.

If Russia tries to play this as they'll only support a UN Mandate if there's no condition for force I think this will only galvanize International support. The genie is out of the bottle, you can't stuff it back in...

-spence

"just because they're getting the Admin to react doesn't mean they're winning."

Spence, I agree...just because Putin is getting a reaction does not mean he's winning. What does mean he is winning, is that Putin is getting the outcome he wanted (Assad stays put with no price to pay), and Obama has egg on his face, since no one was supporting Obama's plan, whatever that was.

"Obama has some breathing room which he needed"

And why did he need it? Because there was no support for his plan.

[spence]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

Spence, I agree...just because Putin is getting a reaction does not mean he's winning. What does mean he is winning, is that Putin is getting the outcome he wanted (Assad stays put with no price to pay), and Obama has egg on his face, since no one was supporting Obama's plan, whatever that was.

If Assad gives up his WMD he becomes more vulnerable which means Russia's interests are more at risk even if they buy more conventional weapons.

It could be a calculation, perhaps they think intervention could stall the civil war and radicalization of rebels is a bigger risk.

-spence

[Nebe]

Originally Posted by spence

If Assad gives up his WMD he becomes more vulnerable which means Russia's interests are more at risk even if they buy more conventional weapons.

It could be a calculation, perhaps they think intervention could stall the civil war and radicalization of rebels is a bigger risk.

-spence

I think the powers that be want this civil war to drag on a long long time. It's brilliant really. Give all the extremists a place to go and play with other extremists.
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[scottw]

Originally Posted by spence

Where's the outrage?

-spence

here's some outrage from across the pond....



Henninger: The Laurel and Hardy Presidency

After the Syrian slapstick, it's time to sober up U.S. foreign policy.
By DANIEL HENNINGER

After writing in the London Telegraph that Monday was "the worst day for U.S. and wider Western diplomacy since records began," former British ambassador Charles Crawford asked simply: "How has this happened?"

On the answer, opinions might differ. Or maybe not. A consensus assessment of the past week's events could easily form around Oliver Hardy's famous lament to the compulsive bumbler Stan Laurel: "Here's another nice mess you've gotten us into!"

In the interplay between Barack Obama and John Kerry, it's not obvious which one is Laurel and which one is Hardy. But diplomatic slapstick is not funny. No one wants to live in a Laurel and Hardy presidency. In a Laurel and Hardy presidency, red lines vanish, shots across the bow are word balloons, and a display of U.S. power with the whole world watching is going to be "unbelievably small."

The past week was a perfect storm of American malfunction. Colliding at the center of a serious foreign-policy crisis was Barack Obama's manifest skills deficit, conservative animosity toward Mr. Obama, Republican distrust of his leadership, and the reflexive opportunism of politicians from Washington to Moscow.

It is Barack Obama's impulse to make himself and whatever is in his head the center of attention. By now, we are used to it. But this week he turned himself, the presidency and the United States into a spectacle. We were alternately shocked and agog at these events. Now the sobering-up has to begin.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...pinion_LEADTop