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Political Threads This section is for Political Threads - Enter at your own risk. If you say you don't want to see what someone posts - don't read it :hihi: |
03-03-2014, 01:06 PM
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#1
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 8,718
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Security is paramount and breeds some odd partnerships.We exploit countries every day to protect US interests.Does that make it wrong?
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PRO CHOICE REPUBLICAN
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03-03-2014, 02:34 PM
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#2
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: RI
Posts: 21,231
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sea Dangles
Security is paramount and breeds some odd partnerships.We exploit countries every day to protect US interests.Does that make it wrong?
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Did I say it was wrong?
-spence
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03-03-2014, 03:29 PM
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#3
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Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 8,718
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spence
Did I say it was wrong?
-spence
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I thought it was implied,but as is usually the case with you jeff,something was lost in translation.I will bow out now before I am baited into discourse which relies heavily on semantics, and facts and opinions become blurred by your imagination.
But I still look forward to making a fishing trip happen this year. Please bring Nebe to translate, I often don't understand what you are trying to convey.
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PRO CHOICE REPUBLICAN
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03-03-2014, 05:22 PM
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#4
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: RI
Posts: 21,231
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sea Dangles
I thought it was implied,but as is usually the case with you jeff,something was lost in translation.I will bow out now before I am baited into discourse which relies heavily on semantics, and facts and opinions become blurred by your imagination.
But I still look forward to making a fishing trip happen this year. Please bring Nebe to translate, I often don't understand what you are trying to convey.
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Playing devil's advocate is hard work. I hope you're not tired out.
-spence
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03-03-2014, 02:52 PM
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#5
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Registered Grandpa
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: east coast
Posts: 8,592
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" Obama would be wise to seek Russia to defer Russian aggression without
specifying too clearly what the US ladder of escalation might be." Ignatius, WP.
Putin is in the catbird seat carrying the "Big Stick" and will do what he wants.
We have become like Casper the Ghost carrying a tooth pick and planning to cut our military in half. True peace comes from strength ,not weakness, without it there is nothing to negotiate with.
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" Choose Life "
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03-03-2014, 05:26 PM
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#6
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: RI
Posts: 21,231
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justplugit
Putin is in the catbird seat carrying the "Big Stick" and will do what he wants.
We have become like Casper the Ghost carrying a tooth pick and planning to cut our military in half. True peace comes from strength ,not weakness, without it there is nothing to negotiate with.
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Nonsense. The Russian economy is nothing without access to western banking, trade and his ability to sell natural gas to the EU at a premium.
Aside from China it looks like there's already strong alignment between the US and EU.
It's amazing how fast the Right jumped on the opportunity to divide Americans. I'll give the GOP this, they haven't proposed any meaningful policy in a decade, but their one liners are priceless.
-spence
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03-03-2014, 05:52 PM
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#7
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Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Mansfield
Posts: 4,834
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spence
It's amazing how fast the Right jumped on the opportunity to divide Americans. I'll give the GOP this, they haven't proposed any meaningful policy in a decade, but their one liners are priceless.
-spence
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Never mind mirrors , I don't think you have any windows.
List the "meaningful " Democrat policies
By that I mean good ones
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
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03-03-2014, 05:54 PM
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#8
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: RI
Posts: 21,231
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buckman
Never mind mirrors , I don't think you have any windows.
List the "meaningful " Democrat policies
By that I mean good ones
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
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Deflection.
-spence
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03-03-2014, 06:04 PM
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#9
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Registered Grandpa
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: east coast
Posts: 8,592
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---
[QUOTE=spence;1033929]Nonsense. The Russian economy is nothing without access to western banking, trade and his ability to sell natural gas to the EU at a premium.
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EU will have to want to take the big blows here.
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Quote=spence
It's amazing how fast the Right jumped on the opportunity to divide Americans. I'll give the GOP this, they haven't proposed any meaningful policy in a decade, but their one liners are priceless.
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Spence get real, this current administration has done more to divide our country then anytime I can ever remember in my life time.
Palin and Romney both brought up the possibility of a possible geo political Ukraine issue and were put down by the great forward leftist thinkers. Lets think about the pressing global warming.
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" Choose Life "
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03-03-2014, 10:34 PM
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#10
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Certifiable Intertidal Anguiologist
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Somewhere between OOB & west of Watch Hill
Posts: 35,134
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Well thankfully we have John Kerry to guide a path through the shoals here. If that doesn't work, we have Joe Biden in reserve on the bench ready to go. /Sarcasm
This is a fustercluck no matter how it works. Putin was trying to keep a lid on this until Sochi was done. This hit the hot water just after but had been brewing for a while.
Ukraine has 4 things important to Russia:
- Wheat - they are the Slavic breadbasket
- Warm water ports - year round warm water ports to sell their oil & LNG plus the Black Sea Fleet headquarters.
- Buffer between the Russians and everyone else.
- Russians. A lot of Russians that descended from the Russians that defended Ukraine from the Germans in WWII. Oh, and those that were put there to replace the many evicted Tartars
Ukraine means a LOT. Of all the former republics under the Soviet umbrella the one that probably means the most is Ukraine.
Militarily there are no great options. The Navy cannot get in there (the Turks might not even let us through as they try to figure out are they Muslim or EU/NATO). The Air Force would be playing in Russia's back yard. The Army is nowhere close and what is 1000 miles away is at the end of a Russian railroad for logistical supply.
NATO/EU is a near useless shell of a force that could stop the Russians heading west but not much else - the fruits of a peace dividend and near 2 decades of having the US do their heavy lifting. We can't afford it anymore. They are not going to go into Ukraine and have the Russians turn off their heat (they buy Russia's LNG).
If I were the Baltics, Poles, and Czech/Slovs, I'd be real nervous.
This will at best be settled diplomatically / economically. At worst, if our vaunted elected leaders fail, any other country with a treaty / memorandum is going to be real concerned that we will not meet our obligations. Taiwan / Japan / Philippines / Poland / Balitcs / Israel are all watching this very intently.
Crimea is gone, South Oesstia all over again. With luck, Crimea is the only thing lost. They could use the same tactics and get the entire coast from Odessa to the Crimea under their wing and have a small, landlocked Ukraine remaining.
This major leadership deficit in our country is gonna hurt us real soon. From both parties.
The Titanic Deck Ass Containment Apparatus Rearrangement Team is in full swing.
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~Fix the Bait~ ~Pogies Forever~
Striped Bass Fishing - All Stripers
Kobayashi Maru Election - there is no way to win.
Apocalypse is Coming:
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03-04-2014, 08:54 AM
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#11
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Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: RI
Posts: 21,231
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnR
Well thankfully we have John Kerry to guide a path through the shoals here. If that doesn't work, we have Joe Biden in reserve on the bench ready to go. /Sarcasm
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Remember after 9/11 people thought we had the foreign policy dream team...look how that played out.
The important negotiations here will be with the EU.
-spence
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03-04-2014, 09:49 AM
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#12
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Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 7,688
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spence
Remember after 9/11 people thought we had the foreign policy dream team...look how that played out.
The important negotiations here will be with the EU.
-spence
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I might actually agree with Spence on this. Not about the 9/11 bit and "how that played out." The playing out involved back and forth opposition and agreement with those who were not on the "dream team." And an ultimate dismantling of the dream teams policies by those who followed. But that's, as Spence likes to say, old news. And if he were true to the implication that old news is no longer relevant, one wonders why he likes to so often bring up old news. I guess if that tactic suits his argument of the present moment (but subject to change the next day or hour in another thread) it's acceptable--after all, it's CHANGE. And change is the highest aspiration of the progressive mind. Apparently, the more often, the better.
But I digress. I may actually agree with the important negotiations being with the EU. If Spence means by that negotiations amongst Russia, the EU, and Ukraine. In fact, those are the ONLY relevant negotiations. And, power to truth, if the EU is not militarily strong enough or morally resolute enough to stand up to the same of Putin's Russia, the "negotiations" may be one sided in results.
The U.S. has too long been the military backbone for Western Europe--and NATO. That is not only outside our sphere of influence, but we are, again, in the process of weakening our own military might. Europe, if it wants to stand on whatever it considers its principles, needs to be willing to fight for them.
As far as "economic" sanctions--those cut both ways. Besides, Russia has always managed to be outside of Western Europe's economic sphere. And it is forming other alliances rapidly, now, in response to threats against its hegemony in what it considers its sphere of influence.
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