Was He or Not

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

Frankly I'd put a lot more faith in what our military leadership is saying about this whole event ...
-spence

Me too. So go listen to what they are all saying, not just the ones you happen to agree with.

[RIROCKHOUND]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

Me too. So go listen to what they are all saying, not just the ones you happen to agree with.

And a common theme, was get him back, then sort out details (captured, AWOL, deserter) and deal with him as appropriate.

[buckman]

I don't think his desertion status is the major question in this .
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[RIROCKHOUND]

Originally Posted by buckman

I don't think his desertion status is the major question in this .
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I think it is a big variable. If this guy was a McCain style POW, the 5 for 1 swap wouldn't be the issue it is now...

[spence]

Originally Posted by RIROCKHOUND

I think it is a big variable. If this guy was a McCain style POW, the 5 for 1 swap wouldn't be the issue it is now...

The 5 for 1 swap is an issue primarily for political reasons. These guys were going to be let go within a year regardless. The military used them while they still held value.

-spence

[spence]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

Me too. So go listen to what they are all saying, not just the ones you happen to agree with.

Do you know of active military leadership condemning the action?

-spence

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by RIROCKHOUND

I think it is a big variable. If this guy was a McCain style POW, the 5 for 1 swap wouldn't be the issue it is now...

Apples and oranges. When we did prisoner exchanges with the North Vietnamese, they were soldiers of a nation that signed the Geneva Convention (I presume). Back then, we released soldiers. These guys are terrorists, and there's a difference.

You're right to call out hypocrisy directed at Obama for things that wouldn't get criticized if a Republican was in the Oval Office. I'm not sure this is a good example of that. I saw Senator Feinstein being very critcal of how it was handled, she's hardly a right-wing hack.

I'm glad the guy is back, let's find out what happened and let him face justice if necessary...

[Fly Rod]

Spence I really think U R right...he only put his weapon down and walked away to find the Taliban and the first person he came across he asked, " can U tell me how to seek out the Taliban." I think he wanted to learn how to grow poppy's knowing that when he got back to the good ole U S he could start farming a cash crop....want to hear another? LMAO...

I think that carrot juce I have been drinking fermented...LOL...

[buckman]

Originally Posted by spence

The 5 for 1 swap is an issue primarily for political reasons. These guys were going to be let go within a year regardless. The military used them while they still held value.

-spence

Source?
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[PaulS]

I'm really conflicted over the whole thing. He may or may not have been crazy. His actions may have caused possibly up to 6 soldiers deaths. We have had to negotiate with terrorists.

I think this may be one of those times you hold your nose and do something.

I'm sure there will be hearings.

[Fly Rod]

I agree with buckman they were only pons use them while U can...if it is not them killing Americans there will be others...it is time the military gets to the deserter....do their investigation and bring the deserter to trial and if found guilty he would not be shot as was Eddie Slovik....this guy will just be put in prison to get fat and lazy.....oink! oink!!

[spence]

Originally Posted by buckman

Source?
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I've read it several places, one I quoted earlier who was a Bush adviser.

Given the Geneva conventions ruled to apply I don't think we can keep it open indefinitely once we're out of Afghanistan. They'd have to bring these guys to trial in the US which would go nowhere.

The whole process has been a joke. I read that the military commissions have only gotten 7 convictions, 2 were overturned at a cost of 120 million dollars EACH.

-spence

[spence]

Originally Posted by Fly Rod

Spence I really think U R right...he only put his weapon down and walked away to find the Taliban and the first person he came across he asked, " can U tell me how to seek out the Taliban." I think he wanted to learn how to grow poppy's knowing that when he got back to the good ole U S he could start farming a cash crop....want to hear another? LMAO...

I think that carrot juce I have been drinking fermented...LOL...

Evidence appears to indicate he wanted to help Afgan children, not switch teams...we'll see what they determine from his re-entry.

-spence

[spence]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

Apples and oranges. When we did prisoner exchanges with the North Vietnamese, they were soldiers of a nation that signed the Geneva Convention (I presume). Back then, we released soldiers. These guys are terrorists, and there's a difference.

These guys were Afgan Taliban, I don't think they were involved in any international terrorism. Doesn't mean they're nice chaps, but not the same as if they were alQaeda leadership.

You're right to call out hypocrisy directed at Obama for things that wouldn't get criticized if a Republican was in the Oval Office. I'm not sure this is a good example of that. I saw Senator Feinstein being very critcal of how it was handled, she's hardly a right-wing hack.

Some of this is genuine I'm sure but also some anger by Dems is a response to the GOP outrage machine they know these actions will provoke. It's amazing how fast they can get in front of a story and cement a false narrative that's pretty soon assumed as fact by everyone.

Fox's relentless attacks toward his parents is particularly disturbing.

-spence

[buckman]

This too will pass with many questions to remain unanswered . No charges will be filed for desertion and the 5 will go back to killing only this time they have more cred
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[spence]

God, imagine the let down if they determine he was mentally unstable at the time he left and decide not to court martial.

-spence

[buckman]

Originally Posted by spence

God, imagine the let down if they determine he was mentally unstable at the time he left and decide not to court martial.

-spence

Or imagine your back pedaling if we find out Fox was right
Pretty pathetic that this may be his biggest foreign-policy achievement!
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[spence]

Originally Posted by buckman

Or imagine your back pedaling if we find out Fox was right
Pretty pathetic that this may be his biggest foreign-policy achievement!
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Fox is right about what?

-spence

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

These guys were Afgan Taliban, I don't think they were involved in any international terrorism. Doesn't mean they're nice chaps, but not the same as if they were alQaeda leadership.



Some of this is genuine I'm sure but also some anger by Dems is a response to the GOP outrage machine they know these actions will provoke. It's amazing how fast they can get in front of a story and cement a false narrative that's pretty soon assumed as fact by everyone.

Fox's relentless attacks toward his parents is particularly disturbing.

-spence

"These guys were Afgan Taliban, I don't think they were involved in any international terrorism"

Do you not see the contradiction in that statement? Afghan Taliban are necessarily tied to Al Queda. Afghan Taliban have been in bed with Al Queda, giving them a safe haven, for years and years.

"not the same as if they were alQaeda leadership. "

True on its face, but the organization they belong to is closely affiloiated with Al Queda.

"Fox's relentless attacks toward his parents is particularly disturbing"

If they are attacking his parents, I agree 100%.

[spence]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

Do you not see the contradiction in that statement? Afghan Taliban are necessarily tied to Al Queda. Afghan Taliban have been in bed with Al Queda, giving them a safe haven, for years and years.

It's not contradictory, I just don't think the word "terrorist" is tossed around without consideration. Because you're Taliban doesn't automatically make you a terrorist. Even if Afghanistan did manage to stabilize the Taliban will most likely continue to be a political component of it's government.

True on its face, but the organization they belong to is closely affiloiated with Al Queda.

I don't believe that's necessarily the case in 2002 when the 5 were captured.

Read this it's really interesting.

http://reason.com/archives/2012/09/0...ladens-revenge

-spence

[buckman]

If he is found guilty of desertion and he should be held accountable for the lives of the men that were lost looking for him. There are children growing up without fathers and wives growing up without husbands because of his actions. There was no need to parade the parents out in the Rosegarden other than for Obamas grandstanding.
The five that were released will guarantee loss of future lives of women and children in Afghanistan.
These women and children did not make a bad decision to put them in harms way.
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[spence]

Originally Posted by buckman

If he is found guilty of desertion and he should be held accountable for the lives of the men that were lost looking for him. There are children growing up without fathers and wives growing up without husbands because of his actions. There was no need to parade the parents out in the Rosegarden other than for Obamas grandstanding.

Today he's an active member of the US Army. To not recognize his return because he "could" have been a deserter would be finding him guilty before a trial. We don't do that. Every single military official I've seen has said get him home then we'll sort it out.

The five that were released will guarantee loss of future lives of women and children in Afghanistan.

1) You have no way of knowing this. 2) Considering the 10+ years of war in the area do you really think that 5 people, even if they were mid to high level Taliban, are going to make any difference?

-spence

[buckman]

Originally Posted by spence

Today he's an active member of the US Army. To not recognize his return because he "could" have been a deserter would be finding him guilty before a trial. We don't do that. Every single military official I've seen has said get him home then we'll sort it out.


1) You have no way of knowing this. 2) Considering the 10+ years of war in the area do you really think that 5 people, even if they were mid to high level Taliban, are going to make any difference?



-spence

" Recognize "??? I'm surprised the President didn't dress up as Rambo and claim he went in there and single-handedly save this poor dying soldiers life who was only trying to help the children ( pure speculation on your part )

You are one naïve person if you think these guys are not going to go back to the Taliban .
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[spence]

Originally Posted by buckman

" Recognize "??? I'm surprised the President didn't dress up as Rambo and claim he went in there and single-handedly save this poor dying soldiers life who was only trying to help the children ( pure speculation on your part )

Considering your view of the POTUS i'm not surprised at your surprise.

You are one naïve person if you think these guys are not going to go back to the Taliban .
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Eventually I'm sure they will, that's not the point. The issue is should we detain them if it's likely they're not a significant threat to the USA. It brings up the larger question of what the Taliban is, was and what could be.

-spence

[buckman]

[QUOTE=spence;

Eventually I'm sure they will, that's not the point. The issue is should we detain them if it's likely they're not a significant threat to the USA. It brings up the larger question of what the Taliban is, was and what could be.

-spence[/QUOTE]

I'm going to have to ask you to quote the source that says that these guys are not a threat to the United States.
The Taliban are bad guys Spence hate to break the news to ya . I'm sure they're right behind the Republicans on the "war on women"
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[spence]

Originally Posted by buckman

I'm going to have to ask you to quote the source that says that these guys are not a threat to the United States.
The Taliban are bad guys Spence hate to break the news to ya . I'm sure they're right behind the Republicans on the "war on women"
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Not a threat is an absolute, nobody here including Obama is dealing in absolutes.

-spence

[buckman]

Originally Posted by spence

Not a threat is an absolute, nobody here including Obama is dealing in absolutes.

-spence

Well could you give us an educated guess as to whether you think they will become a threat to the United States in the future?
I'm sorry I just read back in your posts where you said it is not likely they will become a significant threat to the United States
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[Fishpart]

Trial by Court Martial. If found guilty of conspiring with the enemy and desertion I would say Firing Squad, especially since others died trying to "rescue" him.

On the matter of releasing now 6 terrorists. IMPEACHMENT

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

To not recognize his return because he "could" have been a deserter would be finding him guilty before a trial. We don't do that.

True, we don't do that. Or at least we should't.

But it's equally speculative of you to assume that these guys aren't a threat, or to assume that the soldier wandered off to feed hungry kids.

[spence]

Originally Posted by buckman

Well could you give us an educated guess as to whether you think they will become a threat to the United States in the future?
I'm sorry I just read back in your posts where you said it is not likely they will become a significant threat to the United States
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Become a significant threat to the US? No, I don't think the odds of that are very high. Yes, they were Taliban leaders, but their followers are long since dead or onto other things.

I think once we're out of Afghanistan the government will likely cut a deal with the Taliban anyway.

-spence