Gun Owners.. Ball is in your court

[tysdad115]

Originally Posted by spence

Please tell me about these stats.

Please tell me why 41,000 people deemed their lives hopeless.
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[nightfighter]

Andy, from Wikipedia...... (my disclaimer for source of defending hard numbers as opposed to throwing them out, as some here are prone to do)


Gun violence in the United States results in thousands of deaths and thousands more injuries annually.[1] According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, in 2013, firearms (excluding BB and pellet guns) were used in 84,258 nonfatal injuries (26.65 per 100,000 U.S. citizens) [2] and 11,208 deaths by homicide (3.5 per 100,000),[3] 21,175 by suicide with a firearm,[4] 505 deaths due to accidental discharge of a firearm,[4] and 281 deaths due to firearms-use with "undetermined intent"[5] for a total of 33,169 deaths related to firearms (excluding firearm deaths due to legal intervention). 1.3% of all deaths in the country were related to firearms.[1][6]

[spence]

Originally Posted by nightfighter

Are you serious? Two thirds are accounted to people who choose to end their own life. If not a gun it would have been a knife, pills, whatever. And the issues, while some might overlap in regards to mental health, are not akin to the mass shootings recognized by the OP. Nor did the POTUS mention suicides in his discussion.To lump suicides in with violent crimes is stacking the deck unfairly without disclosing to what they include. That is skewed.

Nice, so "some" suicides might overlap with mental health issues. Wow.

A lot of people trying to commit suicide don't succeed, but I'd wager most with guns do.

I never attributed the 30k number to person on person crime. It's simply the volume of people killed by guns...the context for the remark was tyd claiming insignificance...

[tysdad115]

I saw that Ross, I'd just like to know why 41K+ decided to end their own lives,not the devices they used to do so.
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[Nebe]

Originally Posted by spence

It's simply the volume of people killed by guns...the context for the remark was tyd claiming insignificance...

The correct sentence structure is " it's simply the volume of people who have died by use of a gun".

Guns don't kill people. People kill other people with a gun.
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[nightfighter]

Not playing nice here. Some would be the correct word.

Guns are most effective as a deterrent. I would wager that thousands of suicide attempts are aborted after taking a good look down the barrel of a loaded gun..... Deterrent, as a case for open carry laws.....

[spence]

Originally Posted by tysdad115

They don't work that way Ross. All totalled the 2013 suicides were 41,149. Of those 10,062 were suffocation related and 6,637 were poison related. I wonder why they don't include heroine overdoses as suicides..another 10,000+ deaths were DUI related. Where's the push to ban cars or booze? Those are just 2013 stats. Now why was the suicide rate so high ? People were obviously bothered and felt there was no way out. But they choose to blame the inanimate object again to suit their needs. They thrive on skewed stats.
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How many DUI related deaths were intentional?

How often has a car been intentionally used as a weapon at all?

Do cars have other uses beyond killing people?

A gun at rest is an inanimate object, when a person is pulling the trigger...as you well know...is quite active.

[tysdad115]

Originally Posted by spence

How many DUI related deaths were intentional?

How often has a car been intentionally used as a weapon at all?

Do cars have other uses beyond killing people?

A gun at rest is an inanimate object, when a person is pulling the trigger...as you well know...is quite active.

The end result is the same. Other uses ? Ty and I went to the range today shot 700 rounds from killy Glocks, not one person was injured.
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[tysdad115]

Of the 32,719 motor vehicle deaths in 2013 10k were DUI related,the other 22k happened because a person got in the vehicle and operated it...clearly it isn't the cars fault.
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[spence]

Originally Posted by tysdad115

The end result is the same. Other uses ? Ty and I went to the range today shot 700 rounds from killy Glocks, not one person was injured.
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Well, at least with your non sequitur I can't accuse you of skewing statistics.

[nightfighter]

Spence, your debate tactic, again, dissolves into questions that add nothing to subject, yet turn the discussion toward impasse with little to be accomplished. You are as polished as our elected politicians that work so effectively for the common good.......

[spence]

Originally Posted by tysdad115

Of the 32,719 motor vehicle deaths in 2013 10k were DUI related,the other 22k happened because a person got in the vehicle and operated it...clearly it isn't the cars fault.
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Ok, by that logic how many of the 30k gun deaths are year were accidents? Hint, it's posted above.

[spence]

Originally Posted by Nebe

The correct sentence structure is " it's simply the volume of people who have died by use of a gun".

Guns don't kill people. People kill other people with a gun.
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You're splitting hairs...it's not relevant to the point at hand.

[nightfighter]

Originally Posted by tysdad115

...clearly it isn't the cars fault.
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To be fair.... there were some GMs and Toyotas that would fit that bill.....

[tysdad115]

Originally Posted by spence

Ok, by that logic how many of the 30k gun deaths are year were accidents? Hint, it's posted above.

And again. How many would happen if the person didn't initiate it? Your argument is deflated, if guns kill people so do cars,busses,airplanes ,hammers, bats etc..
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[tysdad115]

Originally Posted by nightfighter

To be fair.... there were some GMs and Toyotas that would fit that bill.....

Lol...ban them too!!! It's for the children !
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[Nebe]

Originally Posted by spence

You're splitting hairs...it's not relevant to the point at hand.

It certainly is relevant. Just as a person could commit suicide by dropping a hair dryer in a bath tub, they could use a gun. The shooter in Oregon could have made a bunch of pipe bombs and Molotov cocktails instead of using a gun.
Guns are not the problem. It is the American way of life that is the problem.
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[Slipknot]

Nice little discussion you have here

since the ball is in gun owners court I'll have to ask, when will non gun owners admit that a gun is a tool?

I don't have any NRA BS , so I won't respond with any

I would have prevented the shooters from getting guns first by voting and electing a government that passed laws with common sense and did not knee jerk react to tragedies, second - the more armed citizens, the better. I'd rather be able to protect myself and my family than have Hajji cut my head off, my brother prevented eminent harm to himself by being armed once and I am glad he had his license to carry because I certainly would not have liked to have been one of 6 carrying him a few days later.

The way the problem is getting worse is, because we have a president who chose to politicize the latest. I think the media should not even name the shooters in these instances, glorifying them makes matters worse and causes myself to consider carrying some protection. There are lots of weirdos out there and I for one do not intend to be a victim.

I hope that answers it.

and I hope anti gun people can admit that a gun is a tool.

[Raider Ronnie]

Originally Posted by spence

Yea, with 30,000+ gun deaths per year it certainly isn't deserving of a policy discussion. Perhaps the real reason to kill the debate is when you look at the statistics it doesn't look very good for the NRA.

30,000 and 95+ % of those are gang bangers

[PaulS]

Originally Posted by tysdad115

the next time someone dies in a car accident lets petition the govt to get rid of cars.
Sounds ridiculous doesn't it ?
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Those 2 statements weren't together in your post.

comparing guns and cars is frequently brought up by gun rights advocates but actually undermines their argument. In my view, we need to treat guns more like cars and if that were done, I think there would be less talking about banning guns.

We require training, licensing and registering of cars (&drivers licenses), seatbelts, airbags, collision avoidance devices, insurance, etc. and as a result deaths by car has decreased tremendously and continues to go down. We have both public and private groups who study ways to make cars safer. Things that congress use to do such as name the gun stores who sold the most guns used in crimes are now prohibited from being done ( by congress. The stores actually changed their sales practices and their sales weren't linked to as much crime). Research dealing with guns has been blocked by the gun lobby.

The majority of gun owners are agreeable to back ground checks, tighter regulations of gun dealers, requirements that guns be stored safely in homes and a 10 year prohibition of owning guns if convicted of violence.
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[PaulS]

I got a lot of that from an article by Nicholas Kristof that I just read prior to logging on.

Since 1970 there have been more deaths by guns than in all of our wars. 1.4 million deaths. 60% of those where by suicide. Studies have shown that if a gun was not available, many of those would have been avoided (other studies have shown if you prevent someone from jumping off the Golden Gate Bridge those people don't try again).
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[blondterror]

I posted this to spur discussion because I thought the frequency of these incidents was disturbing most people in the US. We are the outliers in the world when it comes to these incidents and we have more guns in peoples hands than other countries.

Yes .. there is always room for improvement on applying the current Laws. Get the NRA to focus on its roots... gun safety and training... not a lobby arm for the Gun industry. You guys are all drinking the kool aid of the gun mfg lobbists not the real sportman that started the NRA.


If you cannot get on board to make it more difficult to procure guns than you have serious blinders on. Even the recent Oregon killer's Dad said he was very surprised that his son was able to get all those firearms legally.

More guns are directly proportional to more deaths no matter whose math you use. Even people who lock their guns in home safes occasionally forget to lock them or just the presence of guns in the house causes activity that leads to violence... this evidence is also well documented.

The current trajectory of violence in the US is the issue.... and more guns is NOT the answer.

I for one would propose that all personal handguns should be stored at Sportsman firing ranges where they are used. Automatic weapons are for military use only and have no business to be sold to civilians.

[tysdad115]

Stored at clubs ? Sure let's have every criminal keep theirs there too. That's the most ridiculous thing I've heard yet.
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[scottw]

Originally Posted by tysdad115

Stored at clubs ? Sure let's have every criminal keep theirs there too. That's the most ridiculous thing I've heard yet.
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makes perfect sense.....I've always said...the best way to prevent violent gun crime is to lock up the hand guns of law abiding gun owners at shooting ranges...problem solved

also read this today...not sure how accurate but from a pretty reliable writer

"A fully automatic weapon legally owned by a civilian has not been used in a murder in modern history. Those .50-caliber rifles that California was so obsessed about a few years back have, so far as the statistics show, never been used in a murder in that state, though one — one — was among the weapons used in a 1995 murder in Colorado. Ordinary criminals use ordinary guns."

[Slipknot]

Originally Posted by blondterror

I for one would propose that all personal handguns should be stored at Sportsman firing ranges where they are used. Automatic weapons are for military use only and have no business to be sold to civilians.

criminals would love that Chris not happening but I see the point
better background checks would surely help
I am not opposed to making it harder for unfit persons to obtain a gun.

this country has a social problem
education can only go so far
where is the moral compass?
the media whores need to take some accountability here

[blondterror]

Andy... you sure have all the answers. I do not believe anything claim...

here is more accurate info on suicides by guns

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/04/op...smtyp=cur&_r=0

I asked you guys to think and all you do is spout forth the same BS what are your original thoughts to stop the problem.. why not better gun control

[tysdad115]

At what point do we blame the people for their own actions? Not one response yet.
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[tysdad115]

Originally Posted by blondterror

Andy... you sure have all the answers. I do not believe anything claim...

here is more accurate info on suicides by guns

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/04/op...smtyp=cur&_r=0

I asked you guys to think and all you do is spout forth the same BS what are your original thoughts to stop the problem.. why not better gun control

The problem is people Chris. Everyone wants to blame something , they should look in the mirror. Funny thing is from my side you're "spouting the the same BS".. I'll openly invite any member here to come along to the range. I'll supply the fun and training . I'd be happy to show anyone how much fun it can be.
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[scottw]

Originally Posted by blondterror

Andy... you sure have all the answers. I do not believe anything claim...

here is more accurate info on suicides by guns

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/04/op...smtyp=cur&_r=0

I asked you guys to think and all you do is spout forth the same BS what are your original thoughts to stop the problem.. why not better gun control

what are your original thoughts?

define better gun control...

your solution is to lock the guns of law abiding citizens in a shooting range....how will that reduce gun crime in Chicago?

[nightfighter]

Chris,
Would you consider going through the process of getting a license to carry and purchase of a handgun to see what we have already gone through here in Mass? It is not perfect, but they don't hand them out, and I would expect you would be surprised to see how much time it takes to do it all legally. Mass. Ct, NY, and NJ are among the most regulated states in this area.