Gun Owners.. Ball is in your court

[tysdad115]

My way of thinking is only a problem to people like you. The root cause of gun related death is people. Chicago is a prime example of what we have allowed society to become. Rahm should run for president, like we don't have enough of their trash already occupying the big office. But lets not look at the whole picture, keep on rationalizing to yourself that the low life drug dealing thugs out there are just poor victims being held back and if guns weren't illegally obtained they would all sit in a circle and share a coke and a smile together.

[scottw]

Originally Posted by spence

The idea that we can't even study the root causes of gun related death is absurd.

.

whose idea was this?...never hear of it

[Fly Rod]

Hillary to the rescue....she is going to solve mass murders IF elected

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-34447239

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by spence

Just keep repeating that to yourself.

There's a lot of repeating on both sides of this issue.

Here's the problem with that line of thinking. You could say the exact same thing about cars. Yet the government has invested billions in making cars safer,

I would prefer that the auto companies spent the billions in making cars safer. If "the government" wants to point a gun at them and make them do stuff, just pass laws to make them do whatever it wants them to do. It's a free country--as in the government is free to do unto others.

making highways safer and creating more regulations to make drivers safer...and it's worked...dramatically.

Interstate highways are actually a constitutional responsibility of the Federal Government. Didn't market competition always result in improved products over time even without government mandates, including better and safer cars? Oh, right . . . some things would never improve if the government didn't make it so. Hmmm . . . though highways and drivers and even cars have become safer, there are still more deaths and injuries because of them than because of guns. What is it, in the 30 thousands deaths per year now? Is that considered an acceptable number since the government has spent billions and made so many regulations? Maybe it'll have to spend more billions and make more regulations . . . for an even more dramatic results.

Did you know that current law prohibits the Government (CDC) from scientific studies on firearms deaths?

Right, only the government can make scientific studies.

We used to do it, up until the NRA lobbied to kill the funding in 1996. There's an old saying in business "you can't fix what you don't measure."

Wow . . . "business" actually has something (very little to nothing) to say in your discussion.

The idea that we can't even study the root causes of gun related death is absurd. Hey, if more guns makes you safer the only way to know is through long-term research.

Again . . . "we" the government must do the studying. Actually, studies re guns making you safer have been done by private sources and people showing that they do. Maybe the term was not long enough for you . . . or the government. I think the government prefers longer and longer terms since that costs more and more money. The government likes to spend money.

Ultimately you have to make guns harder to get as the gun proponent in the facebook video so clearly states.

Yes, and you ("the government?") have to make cars harder to get since they cause more deaths than guns. And make lots of other dangerous stuff like knives, hammers, various foods, and so on, harder to get. Maybe tax and regulate all that stuff more.

It has to be Federal so Jim can't keep reciting the same absurd talking point about Chicago.

Yes, it must be Federal! Local governments are obsolete. They just don't get it. They are too influenced by the people. Things, for better life and justice and freedom, should more properly be coerced by the superior wisdom of centralized bureaucrats.

It has to be long term. There are things you can do to make guns safer and harder to steal.

Yes, of course, long term . . . the longer and costlier the better. Forever, never ending, better regulations created, of course, by Federal regulatory agencies--the only true, correct and just arbiters and promulgators of actual "government."

We have to take mental heath more seriously for sure and yes, this could mean having some people's rights infringed.

Yes We (the Federal Government?) have to take it more seriously. After all, We The Government is best suited to eliminate those annoying differences among We The People which cause so many problems. Mental health should definitely be left in the hands of the Federal Government.

And, oh . . . by the way . . . yes "some" people's rights will be infringed. After all, that is the side effect of all the wonderful trillions of dollars spent and hundreds of thousand regulations made by the Federal Government . . . "some people's" in toto actually being "all" of the people's.

But none of this is going to happen until the NRA stops using it's deep pockets to bully politicians and whip gun advocates into a panicked frenzy of fear that the boogie man is going to destroy their freedoms.

Not the boogie man. The "government" with its even vastly deeper (seemingly unlimited) pockets and regulations used to bully us all into a panicked frenzy of fear over every "crisis" it invents or takes advantage of into living life the "government's" correct and safe way.

[tysdad115]

Just saw this somewhere else and the solution is brilliant!- "There has been a lot of talk lately about gun control and regulation (as often follows a tragedy involving firearms). The discussion is vague: "something needs to be done" or "guns need to be restricted", etc, but no one has real answers about how this happens. Then there is always the "guns don't kill, people do" argument on the other side. However, many are missing the point and the true underlying issue. The problem isn't as complex as "how many bullets can a magazine hold" (7, 10, 30?) or "what type of gun can people own" (handgun, bolt-action, shotgun, semi-auto?). The problem is that people are killing each other. We all need recognize that murder is the issue. We need to stand up and fight for common sense and force our government to make murder illegal once and for all."

[ecduzitgood]

I consider the rampage shooters as suicides. Perhaps the answer is have places where people can go and be treated and if they still want out give them a hot shot. Of course this would involve including family and friends having the chance to help and be held responsible for anyone they do not allow to leave this world.
Some people just want out so let them have a way that doesn't harm others.....unlike suicide by cops which impacts the officers and others.
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[Piscator]

This is from last year...

http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/01/world/...ack/index.html

If China had outlwed knives then this would not have happened right? Come on.....the problem is people, always has and always will be.
What happens when a nut job does something like this with a bow and bunch of arrows? Do we outlaw those too? Lots of irrational thinking going on. There is a problem with society that needs to be addressed. Someone said Root Cause and that is what it's all about. Why is there a need by an increasing number of whack jobs to do these types of things and what is the best way to address the ever increasing amount of sick people who want to do things like this?
There is soooo much more to this issue and a near cited argument is to to make something illegal.

Heroin is illegal...glad making it illeagl has helped fix that issue..
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[Nebe]

The saying is so cliche but so true. "When you make guns illegal, only the criminals will have them".
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[Raven]

not to mention a crime perpetrated against a specific religious group

you have to ask yourself

where did this hatred originate from... ? as that is the root cause
the weapon used is obviously a concern when one victim was shot 34 times

[Raven]

Originally Posted by tysdad115

We all need recognize that murder is the issue. We need to stand up and fight for common sense and force our government to make murder illegal once and for all."

we are very much closer to understanding the human brain as a whole
and in the not so far off future a psych exam will reveal homicidal
tendencies of certain individuals showing that they should not possess
weapons and any access to a relatives weapons as happened at sandy hook...

has to be especially restricted.

[spence]

Originally Posted by Raven

not to mention a crime perpetrated against a specific religious group

you have to ask yourself

where did this hatred originate from... ? as that is the root cause
the weapon used is obviously a concern when one victim was shot 34 times

If the online writing being attributed to his mother is real then I'd suggest that's a good place to start looking...

[ThrowingTimber]

By the very definition, criminals do not follow laws. Just make killing people illegal... oh wait.

Want to help?, stop picking on law abiding citizens and petition for more money for mental health. (screenings, wellness, aid etc etc etc)

Mental health issues are the cause, plain and simple.

People die drinking, ban all booze... People die in cars ban all cars...

These rampaging incidents go back forever and some have happened with knives... CRIMINALS DONT GIVE AF ANY LAWS.... thats what makes them criminals.

[spence]

Originally Posted by ThrowingTimber

These rampaging incidents go back forever and some have happened with knives... CRIMINALS DONT GIVE AF ANY LAWS.... thats what makes them criminals.

This is the most illogical thing I think I've read on this site…and that counts all Jim's posts...

[Rockport24]

What's illogical is putting this blood on the hands of all responsible gun owners, which is everyone here that owns a gun I'm sure! It's not "in our court" it should be in the court of mental health care, parents and families, and our useless liberal government that does virtually nothing about the tragic murders that happen in low-income communities ever single damn day, mostly by recidivist punks!

[spence]

Originally Posted by Rockport24

What's illogical is putting this blood on the hands of all responsible gun owners, which is everyone here that owns a gun I'm sure! It's not "in our court" it should be in the court of mental health care, parents and families, and our useless liberal government that does virtually nothing about the tragic murders that happen in low-income communities ever single damn day, mostly by recidivist punks!

I'd love to hear how all the responsible gun owners on the site have suffered so dearly under this repressive anti-gun government.

Anyone had their guns taken away?

[derekl]

I have had this discussion a million times now. If you made the gun laws the same nationally as what we have in mass( pretty strict) it still won't stop people from commiting mass murders. Taking away fire arms from law abiding gun owners will not solve anything.
For those that say

We need to have back ground checks- we do in nearly every state wether it be to get I firearm permit or go into a store and they call a local/ state agency that runs a check. Either way they are checked

Education. In most states in order to get a permit you need to take a class to get that permit.

Insurance-- what will having insurance solve with illegally obtain firearms? My cars insured, but mostly so it can be replaced or if I were to be in an accident to cover in jury's or damage to others. Is a deer gonna sue me for putting it in my freezer? Or the paper target for putting holes in it. I'm not sure what insuring my firearms will do for guns being brought in from outside the country and being sold illegally.

Banning gun free zones would be a huge start. And just as night fighter said how about open carry everywhere, better yet make gun laws and open carry as well as licenses being obtained federally instead of state to to state.

Hell make stricter laws for illegally obtained/ possession firearms, If being in possession illegally carried a life sentence that may get rid of a few illegally obtained firearms.

You will never stop crazy people from doing crazy #^&#^&#^&#^&. I'd like to be able to protect myself if I ever need to.

Let's also pass laws that all these crimes can not in any way make it to the media, every time these mass murders happen the story changes every minute, lots of stories being made up within a small story, then glorified to the crazies in the world.
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[Raven]

Originally Posted by spence

If the online writing being attributed to his mother is real then I'd suggest that's a good place to start looking...

yep exactly my point... his ideology was not of his own design

it was taught to him

same as the church assassin... both people drank the evil coolaide

[tysdad115]

Originally Posted by spence

I'd love to hear how all the responsible gun owners on the site have suffered so dearly under this repressive anti-gun government.

Anyone had their guns taken away?

Left to people with your views it would happen swiftly.
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[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

This is the most illogical thing I think I've read on this site…and that counts all Jim's posts...

Spence, what gun law is being proposed by liberals, which would have prevented this killing? If gun laws are an effective tool in reducing violence, please explain all the gun violence where there are strict gun laws (like DC and Chicago, or New Haven and Hartford), and why there is almost zero gun crime in the city of Fargo, ND, where a huge percentage of the population own guns?

Have fun with that, and take your time, you will need it.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

Just keep repeating that to yourself.

Here's the problem with that line of thinking. You could say the exact same thing about cars. .

Again, if it's the gun and not the person, please explain the lack of gun violence in the Dakotas, despite astronomical rates of gun ownership.

Is it population density? Do you think that if you took all the people of the Dakotas, and squished them into a smaller space, they'd eventually start killing each other in huge numbers?

It's culture and values. The type people who live in the Dakotas embrace a culture that does not often lend itself to barbaric violence. That doesn't jive well with liberalism, but try making it wrong.

Let's react to what the facts actually are, not what one side desperately wants the facts to be.

[Nebe]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

Again, if it's the gun and not the person, please explain the lack of gun violence in the Dakotas, despite astronomical rates of gun ownership.

Is it population density? Do you think that if you took all the people of the Dakotas, and squished them into a smaller space, they'd eventually start killing each other in huge numbers?

It's culture and values. The type people who live in the Dakotas embrace a culture that does not often lend itself to barbaric violence. That doesn't jive well with liberalism, but try making it wrong.

Let's react to what the facts actually are, not what one side desperately wants the facts to be.

They don't use guns but they sure love their hate crimes
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[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Nebe

They don't use guns but they sure love their hate crimes
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"They" do? All of them?

Chicago now averages 50 shootings per weekend. Those aren't hate crimes but rather, are expressions of empathy for one another?

Again, instead of commending the people in the Dakotas for being able to live with on another despite guns being everywhere, our President insults them (bitter clingers), and so did you just now. You are both more concerned with attacking your political adversaries, than you are with solving this problem.

The solution is there, in the culture they embrace, which leads directly to the way they treat one another, and the way they behave. But we can't say that out loud, because most of them happen to be white and church-going. So we can't point to them and say, "this is how you are supposed to behave".

Whites who behave this way are bitter clingers and racists. Blacks who choose to behave this way are Uncle Toms who aren't really black, but a bunch of Fox News sellouts. A professor at UPenn said this week that Dr Ben Carson deserves the "coon of the year" award. All that liberal tolerance. Because if you genuinely care about others but happen to be conservative, you must still be portrayed as part of the problem.

[Nebe]

Because religion promotes peace and love !

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Nebe

Because religion promotes peace and love !

The fact that you would deny that (in the case of most religions, certainly in the case of Christianity and Judaism), displays your ignorance and/or hatred.

Any huge group of people will have a few evil apples, I don't think there are any exceptions to that. But those evil people aren't inspired by anything that is taught as a cornerstone of their faith.

For example, there was obviously a huge problem with Catholics and pedophiles (more accurately, with Catholics and homosexual predators, but we aren't supposed to say that, either). But those crimes were not inspired by anything that's in the Catholic Catechism.

You don't have to be spiritual to be a good person. But it helps tip the scales in a good way. That's true. You can deny that and ridicule it, or ask if there is anything we can extrapolate from that. Go to a Catholic charity some time, and ask those people why they are volunteering there, instead of sitting home watching TV.

True Christians don't, by and large, shoot people for no good reason. Many of them will tell you that their faith is a big reason why they feel obligated to care about others, but you can't admit that, because it doesn't serve your political agenda.

If I had to constantly deny irrefutable empirical evidence in order to justify my beliefs, that would cause me to take a long, hard look at what I believe, and why. And where I get my information from.

[Nebe]

Why does the Dakotas have one of the highest levels of hate crimes in the country ? What is the number 1 reason for murder in the world? What tool is used to control people for Political domination for thousands of years ??

Think hard now.
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[Nebe]

And yes. There are some good eggs out there.
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[Nebe]

Furthermore our friends in ISIS have the same thought process. "Everyone should just follow our ideas of religion... It will be so peaceful when that happens"
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[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Nebe

Why does the Dakotas have one of the highest levels of hate crimes in the country ? What is the number 1 reason for murder in the world? What tool is used to control people for Political domination for thousands of years ??

Think hard now.
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I googled that, and didn't see anything. Can you post a link to support your claim, so that I can read it?

Because it's pretty white, I wouldn't be shocked to learn that it's a popular place for racists. That's not he fault of the majority of good people who live there.

Now, I asked why the gun crime rate is so low there, even in places like Fargo, which is a city, not a rural area. Think hard now...

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Nebe

Furthermore our friends in ISIS have the same thought process. "Everyone should just follow our ideas of religion... It will be so peaceful when that happens"
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That's Islam. If you read my posts, I specifically mentioned Christianity and Judaism.

There was a time in this country, when most people went to Church. Now, far less people go to Church. Guess what also happened? Now, we have more divorce, infidelity, abortions, mass shootings, etc.

Nebe, why has there been a cultural decline in the US, and also a decline in religion?

Think hard now...

[Nebe]

http://www.usa.com/south-dakota-stat...crime-rate.htm
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