interesting

[The Dad Fisherman]

Originally Posted by PaulS

Do I have to spell it out? A lower % of minorities and students have licenses bc they have less need for a car bc of living in cities.

They may have less need for these......but their access to Them is exactly the same as everybody else.....they can go to the exact same building, stand in the exact same line, and deal with the exact same cranky DMV employee as the rest of us......if they so CHOOSE.....

Students have student IDs.....correct....there is their form of ID.

Anybody over the age of 18 can get a state ID card.....not a license......not a passport......just a simple ID card. That is what my son has.


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[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman

but their access to Them is exactly the same as everybody else.....

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BINGO.

You might have added, "try making that wrong". Other than that, it was perfect.

[PaulS]

Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman

They may have less need for these......but their access to Them is exactly the same as everybody else.....they can go to the exact same building, stand in the exact same line, and deal with the exact same cranky DMV employee as the rest of us......if they so CHOOSE.....

Students have student IDs.....correct....there is their form of ID.

Anybody over the age of 18 can get a state ID card.....not a license......not a passport......just a simple ID card. That is what my son has.

One of the challengers to a voter ID law was a bunch of Nuns (all like 80 -90 years old) who didn't drive and didn't have birth certificates.

As I said earlier, the ID law doesn't bother me as much but why limit the hours people can vote?
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Where did I say access in reference to drivers licenses? I specifically said passports or other forms of govern. id. (I'm sure snarky Scott will call me racist again)

So now you have to get a drivers license or go to school to get an ID to vote? Did your son just walked in empty handed and was able to leave with a ID?

Even in a state where they give you free Ids, some people don't have the $ to get a copy of their birth certificate.

[scottw]

Originally Posted by PaulS

Even in a state where they give you free Ids, some people don't have the $ to get a copy of their birth certificate.

the horror



Requesting a birth certificate

There are five ways to obtain a birth certificate:

In person – Most records are printed on demand while you wait at any of our locations (downtown and five suburban courthouses).
Records are $15 for the first copy and $4 for each additional copy of the same record.
Cash, debit cards and credit cards (MasterCard, Visa, American Express & Discover) are accepted. A $1.25 processing fee is charged for debit cards; a $1.75 processing fee for credit cards. Checks are not accepted.

By mail – On average, mail orders are processed in 7-10 business days.
Mail your request to:
Cook County Clerk David Orr
Bureau of Vital Records
P.O. Box 641070
Chicago, IL 60664-1070
Include the following items in your mail order:
a completed Birth Certificate Request Form (be sure to include your phone number)
a photocopy of your photo identification (click here for acceptable forms of ID)
a check or money order payable to “Cook County Clerk” for $15 (additional copies of the same record cost $4 each)
a self-addressed stamped envelope for your document(s) to be mailed to you.

Currency Exchange – Birth records can be ordered at any Currency Exchange.
For hours and locations, call (847) 759-8905 or visit mycurrencyexchange.com.
In addition to the standard record fees, there is a $5 surcharge for records obtained at a Currency Exchange.
Records must be picked up at the store by the customer at a later time.

Online – Order online via VitalChek.
You will need to know the city of birth listed on the birth certificate, the child’s full name, the exact date of birth, and the parents’ first and last names.
In addition to the standard record fees, VitalChek online orders charge $12.45 for processing and standard postage.
Processing time averages 10-14 business days for regular mail (included), 5-7 business days for 2-day air ($17.50), and 3-5 business days for UPS Air ($20).
Credit cards (MasterCard, Visa, American Express & Discover) and checks are accepted.

Phone – Phone orders via VitalChek can be made by calling toll free (866) 252-8974.
You will need to know the city of birth listed on the birth certificate, the child’s full name, the exact date of birth, and the parents’ first and last names.
In addition to the standard record fees, VitalChek online orders charge $12.45 for processing and standard postage.
Processing time averages 10-14 business days for regular mail (included), 5-7 business days for 2-day air ($17.50), and 3-5 business days for UPS Air ($20).
Credit cards (MasterCard, Visa, American Express & Discover) and checks are accepted.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by PaulS

Where did I say access in reference to drivers licenses? I specifically said passports or other forms of govern. id. (I'm sure snarky Scott will call me racist again)


Even in a state where they give you free Ids, some people don't have the $ to get a copy of their birth certificate.

You asked me if voter fraud was rampant, and I gave you the honest answer.

Now it's my turn...are you suggesting that a large number of Americans, who will take the time to vote, can't do so because they don't have the $$ to get a copy of their birth certificate?

In all seriousness, how do these people establish their identity for the purposes of getting whatever welfare they must be on? Or to cash those assistance checks?

[PaulS]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

You asked me if voter fraud was rampant, and I gave you the honest answer.

Now it's my turn...are you suggesting that a large number of Americans, who will take the time to vote, can't do so because they don't have the $$ to get a copy of their birth certificate?I think that has something to do with it plus in places like Texas they are so far from official offices.

In all seriousness, how do these people establish their identity for the purposes of getting whatever welfare they must be on? Or to cash those assistance checks?

I think it is bc they don't have $ like you and I have and live paycheck to paycheck. Why use a payday lendor if you have a bank acct.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by PaulS

Do I have to spell it out? A lower % of minorities and students have licenses bc they have less need for a car bc of living in cities.

Do you agree that there is little fraud in our elections?

Let me try again, because you are not answering the question that is being asked.

I concede that a higher % of blacks don't have a driver's livcense, than the corresponding % of whites.

Here is my question...if you don't have a driver's license, you can get another photo id. Why is it harder for blacks to get that id, than it is for whites?

Do blacks have, or do they not have, the same exact access to an alternate form of government id, as whites?

"Do you agree that there is little fraud in our elections"

Here, I will show you how to give a direct answer to a direct question, which you haven't been able to do for me yet. YES, I agree that voter fraud isn't a huge issue. See? I answered the question which you are asking.

I also contend that while it isn't a huge issue, it is a minor issue, and if it can be minimized by asking people to get a photo ide, I fail to see how that violates anyone's rights. What that does, is preserve the integrity of the voting process.

I do not have a strong opinion on requiring phot ids. What I do feel strongly about, is that the idea has no racial implications whatsoever. Every single black person who doesn't have a driver's license but wants to vote, can get his ass to town hall or wherever and get the alternate photo id.

Now, please tell us, why it's harder for blacks to get an alternate form pf photo id (besides a drivers license) compared to whites? I concede yoru point that MORE blacks need such a photo id. But your side says that it's HARDER for blacks to get that id. That's what I dispute.

[Jim in CT]

Paul, it doesn't need to be a driver's license. Every state offers a photo id card that's not a driver's license, and many people of all races, get them.

And access to these cards, as well as to driver's licenses, is exactly the same for all of us, regardless of skin color. A photo id requirement has absolutely zero inherent racial bias. It may well turn out that such a requirement suppresses black votes more than it suppresses white votes (I wouldn't bet against that outcome), but that's a choice made by people to not get the id, it's not the inevitable result of institutional racism. Every single black person who doesn't drive, every single one of them, could get that id if they chose. It's no more of a burden for them than it is for white folk who don't drive.

[The Dad Fisherman]

Are you kidding me Paul, I quoted you in my post where you specifically said they don't drive so they don't need a license.
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[PaulS]

Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman

Are you kidding me Paul, I quoted you in my post where you specifically said they don't drive so they don't need a license.
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And the sentence you quoted did not say they had less "access" to drivers licenses.

So I can just walk in emptyhanded and walk out with a SS card? Didn't know I could do that.

A lawsuit filed against Alabama in early December 2015 cites the example of a high schooler who can’t vote because she lacks a driver’s license. According to the suit, she needs to get a state issued voter ID at the DMV, but the one nearest to her is only open one day per month and there’s no public transportation to another DMV 40 miles away roundtrip.


During closing arguments in a 2012 case over Texas’s voter ID law, a lawyer for the state brushed aside geographical obstacles as the “reality to life of choosing to live in that part of Texas.”

In a now-infamous remark, Mike Turzai, majority leader of the Pennsylvania House of Representatives, praised the state’s legislative accomplishments — including passing a voter ID law — at a 2012 Republican State Committee meeting.
“Voter ID, which is gonna allow Governor Romney to win the state of Pennsylvania, done,” he said.



Reverend Wright, EBD cards - this thread is funny.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by PaulS

And the sentence you quoted did not say they had less "access" to drivers licenses.

So I can just walk in emptyhanded and walk out with a SS card? Didn't know I could do that.

A lawsuit filed against Alabama in early December 2015 cites the example of a high schooler who can’t vote because she lacks a driver’s license. According to the suit, she needs to get a state issued voter ID at the DMV, but the one nearest to her is only open one day per month and there’s no public transportation to another DMV 40 miles away roundtrip.


During closing arguments in a 2012 case over Texas’s voter ID law, a lawyer for the state brushed aside geographical obstacles as the “reality to life of choosing to live in that part of Texas.”

In a now-infamous remark, Mike Turzai, majority leader of the Pennsylvania House of Representatives, praised the state’s legislative accomplishments — including passing a voter ID law — at a 2012 Republican State Committee meeting.
“Voter ID, which is gonna allow Governor Romney to win the state of Pennsylvania, done,” he said.



Reverend Wright, EBD cards - this thread is funny.

"one nearest to her is only open one day per month and there’s no public transportation to another DMV 40 miles away roundtrip"

THAT'S NOT RACIST! Because if a white person lives next door, they are in the same exact boat. That burden is not a function of race, it has nohting to do with race. Those people need to address that with their state.

"a lawyer for the state brushed aside geographical obstacles "

We need to address that. Again, it has exactly nothing to do with race. Race doesn't determine who lives out in the woods...

Paul, you want to argue that it's less convenient for some folks than others to get that ID card, I concede that. But the addiitonal burdens are not a function of one's race.

And if one chooses to live far away from society, that person is absolutely agreeing to accept the consequences of that choice, and not all of the consequences are necessarily pleasant.

"Voter ID, which is gonna allow Governor Romney to win the state of Pennsylvania, done,” he said."

Again, you are quoting someone who is merely stating he agrees with you. Many times, I asked for the "why", not the "who agrees with you".

You got creamed here. You can't begin to justify the argument that race dictates how convenient/burdensome it is for one to get a photo id.

[PaulS]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

You can't begin to justify the argument that race dictates how convenient/burdensome it is for one to get a photo id.

Pls. point out where I said it was racist? It affects minorities more (who vote Democratic more). I think Tysdad was the person who mentioned racism 1st and then Cool Beans made an assinine comment (but he hasn't come back to follow up so I'm a little unsure what he meant).

It is nothing more than an attempt to lower voting by groups that vote more for Dems. There is no fraud so there is no reason to do it.

Why disenfranchise so many voters if as you agree there is so little fraud?

[The Dad Fisherman]

Originally Posted by PaulS

Pls. point out where I said it was racist? It affects minorities more (who vote Democratic more).
?

You never said it was racist.....but you most certainly through the minority card around.

Jims point is that the minority thing has nothing to do with it...which it doesn't....

But it sure does seem like people like to throw the minority card around lately

Originally Posted by PaulS

The voter ID laws bother me less than the shortening of hours but minortities (a higher % vote Dem.) have less need for ID. The most common voter ID is a driver’s license, and minorities are less likely to drive. Minorities are less likely to have driver’s licenses because they are more likely to be poor and to live in urban areas. If you can’t afford a car, or if you don’t need one because you take the bus or subway, you are less likely to have a driver’s license. Students are less likely to have driver’s for the same reason. Driver’s licenses are not the only form of id, but minorities don't have as much access to other legally forms such as Passports, military IDs or other government-issued photo ID

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[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by PaulS

Pls. point out where I said it was racist? It affects minorities more (who vote Democratic more). I think Tysdad was the person who mentioned racism 1st and then Cool Beans made an assinine comment (but he hasn't come back to follow up so I'm a little unsure what he meant).

It is nothing more than an attempt to lower voting by groups that vote more for Dems. There is no fraud so there is no reason to do it.

Why disenfranchise so many voters if as you agree there is so little fraud?

"Pls. point out where I said it was racist?"

Are you serious? You posted this..."minorities don't have as much access to other legally forms such as Passports, military IDs or other government-issued photo ID"

Your were saying that Republicans favor voter id laws, because that will suppress black turnout, because of the reduced acceess you claim (falsely, and without even trying to support it) minorities have to these ids.

If you lose an argument, better to admit that you lost it, than to deny you made it in the first place.

"It affects minorities more (who vote Democratic more)."

That's a choice on their part, a choice not to bear the burden placed on all voters. It's not because of institutional bias.

"There is no fraud "

None? How many examples would you like us to post of voter fraud? It's not rampant, but of course it exists.

"Why disenfranchise so many voters if as you agree there is so little fraud"

(1) What fraud? Didn't you say in your previous sentence, "there is no fraud"? And now all of a sudden, there is a little fraud? Which is it? (2) To answer your question, we do this because we can reduce the fraud even more. Less fraud is good, isn't it? It will only disenfranchise people if they choose to let it disenfranchise them. It doesn't prevent anyone from voting.

[The Dad Fisherman]

Originally Posted by PaulS

So I can just walk in emptyhanded and walk out with a SS card? Didn't know I could do that.

That is NOT what I said....I said he walked IN with his social security card and walked OUT with his ID


pretty much everybody that is eligible to vote....should have a valid SSN, correct

[PaulS]

Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman

That is NOT what I said....I said he walked IN with his social security card and walked OUT with his ID


pretty much everybody that is eligible to vote....should have a valid SSN, correct

YOu said "My son walked in with his social security card....how much do those cost?"

And I replied "So I can just walk in emptyhanded and walk out with a SS card? Didn't know I could do that."

So I didn't change or misinterpret anything. I was asking a question. Did your son walk in emptyhanded to the SS office or did he go in with a birth certificate?

I think some people don't have SS #s. Don't know how they get by but that is what I have heard.

[The Dad Fisherman]

Originally Posted by PaulS

YOu said "My son walked in with his social security card....how much do those cost?"

And I replied "So I can just walk in emptyhanded and walk out with a SS card? Didn't know I could do that."

So I didn't change or misinterpret anything. I was asking a question. Did your son walk in emptyhanded or did he go in with a birth certificate?

We did the responsible thing.....we got it for him when he was born
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[The Dad Fisherman]

My son walked in with his social security card....how much do those cost?
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[Slipknot]

I'm sure Rev. Wright will pony up the buck for the state ID and bus ride to the RMV

poor arguement

[The Dad Fisherman]

.....maybe the Democrats can include a free copy of your birth certificate in with all the other freebies.
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[The Dad Fisherman]

I'm getting a headache and a sore thumb....

You need to actually reread what you posted.
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[The Dad Fisherman]

If they live off the grid...then why should they vote?

And living off the grid has nothing to do with being a minority

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[PaulS]

Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman

If they live off the grid...then why should they vote?
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I guess we can change the Constituion to prevent them from voting. Right?

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by PaulS

I guess we can change the Constituion to prevent them from voting. Right?

There are hoops that we all have to jump through, in order to vote. The hoops are not based on race, despite your claims to the contrary. Nothiing you have said, substantiates your claim that it's harder for blacks to get a photo id (other than a driver's license). It will be harder for people who live far away...that's not based on race, that's based on where one chooses to live.

[The Dad Fisherman]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

There are hoops that we all have to jump through, in order to vote. The hoops are not based on race, despite your claims to the contrary. Nothiing you have said, substantiates your claim that it's harder for blacks to get a photo id (other than a driver's license). It will be harder for people who live far away...that's not based on race, that's based on where one chooses to live.

Exactly...
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[The Dad Fisherman]

Originally Posted by PaulS

I guess we can change the Constituion to prevent them from voting. Right?

Maybe they should provide proof that they are covered by the constitution?

How could they do that? Hmmmm
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[The Dad Fisherman]

Scotts not wrong.....and tysdad was just being a wise ass
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[Jim in CT]

Wow.

[scottw]

soft bigotry of low expectations.....

[Cool Beans]

I often wonder what this "straw man" with no I.D. does all day...

Can't drive a car
Can't rent an apartment (most require background and credit checks on top of ID)
Can't go fishing
Can't go hunting
Can't cash a check
Can't open a bank account
Can't get a credit card
Can't check out a book at the library
Can't purchase a firearm
Can't apply for Food stamps or welfare

There is not a lot in life you can do without some form of I.D.

I cannot believe there is more than a small fraction of 1 percent of the population that doesn't have some form of I.D.

This whole story is just B.S. to stir up the uninformed...... and to stir up racial issues.