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Political Threads This section is for Political Threads - Enter at your own risk. If you say you don't want to see what someone posts - don't read it :hihi: |
01-30-2017, 02:00 PM
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#61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim in CT
"I've told you why it is different "
Here's all your posts on the subject.
"it did not effect people w/green cards or visas like this did." - no explanation of why they are different, just a statement that they are different.so, let me get out the crayons - 1 impacted "green cards/visas" and 1 did not.
"I think the entry of green card and visa holders was not impacted also"
"I told you - visas and greencards"
"Do refugees have visas/green cards?"
"There is a huge difference between slowing down refugees and banning visa/greeen card users" No mention of what the difference is, exactly.
"Refugee, green card/visa holder are not the same. - that is the difference and it is a big difference" Again, no details as to what the difference is.
"I've told you why it is different and why that difference matters" - I would love to see where you told me that.
"And it (Obama's order) didn't ban greencard holders like this order did."
So which post exactly, explains what the difference is, and why that difference matters?
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So you want me to explain the difference bt a refugee and a green card/visa holder? As I've stated numerous times 1 impacted visa and green card holders and 1 did not. That is the key.
Also as I mentioned, there was never a "ban" during Pres. Obama's time. Only a slowdown.
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01-30-2017, 02:03 PM
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#62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulS
So you want me to explain the difference bt a refugee and a green card/visa holder?
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one is walking and the other is running....
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01-30-2017, 02:19 PM
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#63
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Join Date: Jul 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulS
So you want me to explain the difference bt a refugee and a green card/visa holder? As I've stated numerous times 1 impacted visa and green card holders and 1 did not. That is the key.
Also as I mentioned, there was never a "ban" during Pres. Obama's time. Only a slowdown.
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I get that 1 group has visas/green cards (maybe, not according to detbuch) and one does not. What I don't get, is why banning one group is brilliant foreign policy, while banning the other group, is un-American. If there is a legitimate security threat form a group of green card holders, we have no choice but to let them in and keep our fingers crossed? Not buying it.
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01-30-2017, 02:20 PM
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#64
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Join Date: Jul 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulS
Also as I mentioned, there was never a "ban" during Pres. Obama's time. Only a slowdown.
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Whatever.
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01-30-2017, 02:21 PM
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#65
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Super Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Middleboro MA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman
Here is the entire text of Trump's executive order. Nowhere in the text does it use the word "Ban","Muslim" or "Christian"
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Correct sir,
yet minds are being lost
looks like a suspension to issue visas to me from certain countries
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The United States Constitution does not exist to grant you rights; those rights are inherent within you. Rather it exists to frame a limited government so that those natural rights can be exercised freely.
1984 was a warning, not a guidebook!
It's time more people spoke up with the truth. Every time we let a leftist lie go uncorrected, the commies get stronger.
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01-30-2017, 02:25 PM
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#66
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 10,242
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim in CT
Whatever.
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So your whole premise was wrong.
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01-30-2017, 02:27 PM
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#67
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Join Date: Jul 2004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slipknot
Correct sir,
yet minds are being lost
looks like a suspension to issue visas to me from certain countries
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Looks like even Pres. Trump was calling it a ban (amd Jim referred to it as a ban).
If the ban were announced with a one week notice, the "bad" would rush into our country during that week. A lot of bad "dudes" out there!
— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) January 30, 2017
And that he wants to "prioritize Christians"
Trump hinted that he would be prioritizing Christians before the order was released on Friday. Here's the transcript of Trump's exchange with the Christian Broadcasting Network's David Brody:
BRODY: "Persecuted Christians, we've talked about this, the refugees overseas. The refugee program, or the refugee changes you're looking to make. As it relates to persecuted Christians, do you see them as kind of a priority here?"
TRUMP: "Yes."
BRODY: "You do?"
TRUMP: "They've been horribly treated. Do you know if you were a Christian in Syria it was impossible, at least very tough to get into the United States? If you were a Muslim you could come in, but if you were a Christian, it was almost impossible and the reason that was so unfair, everybody was persecuted in all fairness, but they were chopping off the heads of everybody but more so the Christians. And I thought it was very, very unfair. So we are going to help them."
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01-30-2017, 03:39 PM
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#68
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Join Date: Feb 2009
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Green card holders were not specifically noted in the executive order. But if there arose a question about it, or any other exceptions, the order allowed Homeland security to determine eligibility case by case, which would allow green card holders who did not pose some apparent threat to be allowed back in:
Section 4(e) of the order: Notwithstanding the temporary suspension imposed pursuant to subsection (a) of this section, the Secretaries of State and Homeland Security may jointly determine to admit individuals to the United States as refugees on a case-by-case basis, in their discretion, but only so long as they determine that the admission of such individuals as refugees is in the national interest -- including when the person is a religious minority in his country of nationality facing religious persecution, when admitting the person would enable the United States to conform its conduct to a preexisting international agreement, or when the person is already in transit and denying admission would cause undue hardship -- and it would not pose a risk to the security or welfare of the United States.
So, per that, green card holders are not being denied entry. And, although the Exec Order does not specify Christians as possible exceptions to denial of entry, the order does specify religious minorities facing persecution in the specified countries. Christians, and Yazidis, certainly fit that category.
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01-30-2017, 09:28 PM
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#69
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Super Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Middleboro MA
Posts: 17,123
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I don't tweet,
and I am not offended by how crass Trump is or by his political incorrectness. I have seen enough of this countries' safety and security for it's actual citizens put in the way back seat for too long now. The refugees should go to Saudi Arabia where it is closer and they have space all set up for plenty, why do we always have to be the savior of the world? It's about time our leader puts America first at something. I am too busy to know all the ins and outs of your issues with things, that is why we have government to do that and journalists to report it, if there wasn't so much greed and corruption, then the country might not be as divided as it has gotten over the last 8 years. Forgive me for thinking out loud but it's time to take back America or lose it to the power control freakin billionaires.
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The United States Constitution does not exist to grant you rights; those rights are inherent within you. Rather it exists to frame a limited government so that those natural rights can be exercised freely.
1984 was a warning, not a guidebook!
It's time more people spoke up with the truth. Every time we let a leftist lie go uncorrected, the commies get stronger.
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01-30-2017, 09:37 PM
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#70
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Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 20,435
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A Trump lawyer was on CNN, saying unequivocally, that the order does not prevent existing green card holders from entering the country. Not vouching for the guy, but he said what Detbuch did, and the CNN host had nothing to challenge him.
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01-30-2017, 11:10 PM
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#71
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Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 7,688
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slipknot
IThe refugees should go to Saudi Arabia where it is closer and they have space all set up for plenty, why do we always have to be the savior of the world? It's about time our leader puts America first at something.
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You may get your wish . . . sort of. Reuters reported that Trump made a phone call today to king Salman of Saudi Arabia who agreed to supporting safe zones for the refugees in Syria and Yemen.
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01-31-2017, 07:30 AM
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#72
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 10,242
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim in CT
A Trump lawyer was on CNN, saying unequivocally, that the order does not prevent existing green card holders from entering the country. Not vouching for the guy, but he said what Detbuch did, and the CNN host had nothing to challenge him.
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It originally did and then at some point they changed so that it did not cover green cards. I haven't heard about visas but would guess they are being treated the same as green cards.
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01-31-2017, 08:16 AM
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#73
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 12,632
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulS
It originally did and then at some point they changed so that it did not cover green cards. I haven't heard about visas but would guess they are being treated the same as green cards.
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So your whole premise was wrong.
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01-31-2017, 08:38 AM
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#74
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Super Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Georgetown MA
Posts: 18,189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulS
It originally did and then at some point they changed so that it did not cover green cards. I haven't heard about visas but would guess they are being treated the same as green cards.
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Please show me where Trump's original, released, executive order mentioned Green cards? and why now it doesn't?
I'm pretty sure if there was a newer EO released we would have heard all about it.
your post also tells me you never read the EO that he released because he does address VISA's in it.
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"If you're arguing with an idiot, make sure he isn't doing the same thing."
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01-31-2017, 08:58 AM
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#75
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Join Date: Jul 2008
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"We’re waiting for the briefing tomorrow, a pause may be necessary. We’re going to look at it." -Senator Charles Schumer in 2015, acknowledging that the U.S. might have to stop importing Syrian refugees after the horrific Paris terrorist attack.
"We must tighten loopholes in the Visa Waiver prgm, ensure passports can’t be faked & stop terrorists who want to exploit the system." -the same Charles Schumer, in a subsequent "tweet"
"“This executive order was mean-spirited and un-American." -the very same Charles Schumer earlier today.
Funny how he evolved on the subject, as soon as a Republican took the oath.
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01-31-2017, 08:59 AM
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#76
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Join Date: Jul 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulS
It originally did and then at some point they changed so that it did not cover green cards. I haven't heard about visas but would guess they are being treated the same as green cards.
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OK. So as Trump's ban stands now, how is it materially different from what Obama did in Iraq, or what Bill Clinton did in Sierra Leone?
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01-31-2017, 09:00 AM
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#77
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[QUOTE=scottw;1116027]
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman
Here is the entire text of Trump's executive order. Nowhere in the text does it use the word "Ban","Muslim" or "Christian"
right....but it "seems" as though he "appears" to imply those things...at least to some... one of whom may be currently huddled in a corner of an igloo somewhere in Canada hugging a Hillary doll....
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That almost made me pee my pants.
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01-31-2017, 09:56 AM
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#78
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Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Somerset MA
Posts: 9,197
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I guess the real question is How afraid are you of the Big bad wolf and what are you willing to give up .. to not be afraid of the big bad wolf ...
personally the big bad wolf is a creation to gain control.. its created to keep people in Fear so they can do as they wish .. all in the name of Security the same thing happen after 9-11 but every one forgets that power grab ....
Obama didn't get a free pass Nor will Trump with his executive orders especially
the one's his own departments are confused on how and who to apply them
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01-31-2017, 10:13 AM
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#79
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 12,632
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the big bad wolf is definitely the real question.... ...the Brothers Grimm were quite devious
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01-31-2017, 10:45 AM
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#80
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This was posted by my Battalion commander who I served with in Iraq who is now a Fullbird Col at Fort Stewart GA I think it shows my big bad wolf analogy..
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01-31-2017, 10:52 AM
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#81
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 10,242
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottw
So your whole premise was wrong.
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Not at all. It shows how badly it was rolled out.
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01-31-2017, 10:54 AM
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#82
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 10,242
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman
Please show me where Trump's original, released, executive order mentioned Green cards? and why now it doesn't? Is this like your statement earlier saying it never mentioned a ban or didn't favor Christians when infact both of those were the intent.
I'm pretty sure if there was a newer EO released we would have heard all about it.
your post also tells me you never read the EO that he released because he does address VISA's in it.
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Your right I didn't - big deal, I was going by what the President's admin. was saying. If they all aren't on the same page, I guess that is something they need to work out. They are saying today it was rolled out badly. Dept. heads heard about it at the same time it they were being briefed.
Last edited by PaulS; 01-31-2017 at 11:00 AM..
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01-31-2017, 11:04 AM
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#83
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 12,632
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulS
Your right I didn't - big deal, I was going by what the President's admin. was saying. If they all aren't on the same page, I guess that is something they need to work out. They are saying today it was rolled out badly. Dept. heads heard about it at the same time it they were being briefed.
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keep moving the goal posts
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01-31-2017, 11:06 AM
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#84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wdmso
This was posted by my Battalion commander who I served with in Iraq who is now a Fullbird Col at Fort Stewart GA I think it shows my big bad wolf analogy..
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the big bad wolf wasn't driving around with a COEXIST bumper sticker on the back of his Subaru
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01-31-2017, 11:16 AM
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#85
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottw
keep moving the goal posts
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Not at all. Pls. explain your snarkiness? How did I move the goal post? Isn't it the Admin. who is moving the goal posts?
Is this like when KA Conway said you have to go by what is in the President's heart and ignore what he says?
Last edited by PaulS; 01-31-2017 at 11:36 AM..
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01-31-2017, 11:20 AM
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#86
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Join Date: Feb 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottw
keep moving the goal posts
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Yeah, just that same old tactic to prevent the winning field goal. But it was OK for the lefties to roll out Obama Care way more badly than how Trump's executive order was supposedly rolled out. And we were supposed to understand that, of course, there were things about the ACA that needed to be fixed, and that it needed to be passed to find out what was in it, and that it was necessary to pass it without any Republican approval, and that it was important to just get it passed and worry about details later. We were supposed to give it time to get better. No matter if it temporarily created some hardships. That was necessary for the greater good.
Well, it seems that the badness of not being on the same page about green cards and visas was straightened out in day or two, but Obamacare badness just got worse.
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01-31-2017, 11:46 AM
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#87
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wdmso
I guess the real question is How afraid are you of the Big bad wolf and what are you willing to give up .. to not be afraid of the big bad wolf ...
personally the big bad wolf is a creation to gain control.. its created to keep people in Fear so they can do as they wish .. all in the name of Security the same thing happen after 9-11 but every one forgets that power grab ....
Obama didn't get a free pass Nor will Trump with his executive orders especially
the one's his own departments are confused on how and who to apply them
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"personally the big bad wolf is a creation to gain control"
I see. The threat of Islamic jihad, is a fabrication, designed to gain control. Tell that to the people who had their legs blown off at the Boston Marathon. Tell that to the people who jumped out of the World Trade Center.
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01-31-2017, 03:02 PM
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#88
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Join Date: Feb 2009
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It seems to me that if you kill the big bad wolf that wants to eat you, you don't have to be afraid of it anymore. But if you let it roam around outside of your gate, you will be in constant fear . . . that is such a harsh word to the ears of the compassionate--how about mildly disturbed? . . . that you will be in constant mild disturbance that it will sneak in and make you greatly disturbed, to say the least. Oh, that's right, you can wait for the inevitable and kill it when it does finally sneak in. Or better yet, out of compassion and understanding, you can keep throwing some meat over the fence to keep it satisfied. You'd better not run out of meat. And don't let your children run outside of your fence. But that's Ok, because, after all, it will eventually like you and be your friend if you keep feeding it meat.
But it might cause you to feel a little uncomfortable when you get reports about this brand of wolf seeming to not be so reciprocally kind when it is, or becomes, the dominant power. Maybe not all brands of wolves are the same? Maybe some can be domesticated and turned into nice puppies who appreciate your largesse and maybe only occasionally poop in places that you don't like, but mostly will be obedient dogs, who do your bidding, and even help protect your home, even fight other big bad wolves outside the gate.
And maybe some, because of the nature of their brand, cannot be domesticated.
And you keep getting reports of this brand of wolves mostly preferring to breed strictly among their own and never really, in their deepest identity, desiring to be somebody's pet dog. That they have a certain, indomitable sense of pride which they deem makes them superior. That in their minds they are actually, especially when they are banded together as they prefer to do, a superior breed. And you observe that they tend to multiply rapidly, and seem always to produce wild ones who cause deadly trouble to hosts, or total domination of others when they gain control.
It might give you pause to think about if they can be domesticated, and about how to discern which ones are prone not to be domesticated, about which ones would actually bite the hand that feeds them. You might want to actually figure out, in spite of the difficulty of adding them to your already divided turbulent household, if they are a good addition, and how to go about doing that and which ones are the most promising to let in.
Or you can just role out your red carpet and compassionately let in the ones who were wounded by their own kind. And because of that, believe that they are different wolves and will actually choose (sort of like transgenders) to become (identify as) sheep rather than merely wearing sheep's clothing .
Of course, there are many in your house who see these wolves as allies to gain power over their rival siblings and want enough of them in to solidify that power.
Sorry if that sounds harsh to the snowflakes. But reality is not always kind.
Do I think that Muslims are, by nature, wolves--big bad ones? Of course not. Not by nature. By nature they are different only by genetic tribal differences. And those natural differences are probably not an impediment to peacefully admix in society with others.
It is not in their human nature that Muslims have difficulty cooperating with non-Muslims within a society whose greater purpose is the protection of individual differences, it is in their Islamic dogma where the difficulty occurs. That can only be denied in theory, not in fact.
In theory, Islam can be transformed to fit the modern world. In fact, that has not yet happened. Perhaps Western countries, especially in North America, can help to bring about that transformation by intermingling large numbers of selected Muslims into their societies. As of now, that would be a social experiment. And the outcome is not certain. We like to believe that our Western ways are so superior that those who are freely allowed to live them will prefer them to the cultures from which they came. They will prefer it so much that they will give up their deepest spiritual beliefs, or at least tweak them to fit the greater society. Many Muslims profess the desire to do just that. The problem is that the sources of Islam, Mecca and Tehran, must decree any transformation for the religion to be changed. And to do that in a way that is compatible with Western society, the Islamic rulers in Saudi Arabia and Iran, must dissolve the theocratic power they have over their people and Muslims in the rest of the world. And the difficulty in rewriting the story of Muhammad so that the change is not so noticeable and is believable and without causing turmoil throughout the Islamic world is unimaginable. But, theoretically possible.
When, and if, that fundamental transformation happens, Muslims would not pose the existential threat that so many fear. Unfortunately, there are other problems and dangers in expanding "diversity." I'm, personally, all aboard with cultural variety. I particularly love the wide choice of cheap restaurants that immigrants provide. I love the variety of faces. The different genetic pool, if it actually mixes rather than balkanizes, is healthy.
What I don't love is the importation of mind-sets which see government as a ruling class rather than a serving one. I don't like the importation of group think over individualism. I hate the importation of people to be used as dependents who will sustain Party power.
Other than all that, hey, c'mon in. Contribute to our wealth and productivity rather than leaching off of it. Assimilate. Become AMERICANS first. Love this country and its founding structure. And preserve that structure despite the attempts to use you all as useful idiots to maintain the power of those who wish to make you, and the rest of us, perpetual dependents.
And don't get upset when we want to check you out more thoroughly rather than giving you an EZ pass through gate.
Last edited by detbuch; 01-31-2017 at 07:26 PM..
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01-31-2017, 03:13 PM
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#89
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Super Moderator
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Georgetown MA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulS
Is this like your statement earlier saying it never mentioned a ban or didn't favor Christians when infact both of those were the intent. .
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There's that word "Intent" again....amazing how that word was completely lost during the Hillary e-mail scandal, but *POOF* it's back
Trump's EO didn't mention a ban, Muslims, Christians, or Green Cards....but you didn't even read it....so you're arguments are falling on completely deaf ears.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulS
Your right I didn't - big deal, I was going by what the President's admin. was saying. If they all aren't on the same page, I guess that is something they need to work out. They are saying today it was rolled out badly. Dept. heads heard about it at the same time it they were being briefed.
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"If you're arguing with an idiot, make sure he isn't doing the same thing."
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01-31-2017, 03:41 PM
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#90
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Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 10,242
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman
There's that word "Intent" again....amazing how that word was completely lost during the Hillary e-mail scandal, but *POOF* it's back
Trump's EO didn't mention a ban, Muslims, Christians, or Green Cards....but you didn't even read it....so you're arguments are falling on completely deaf earsThen why respond?.
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But you read it (or did you just do a search for those words?) and you still don't know what the intent was. Maybe you should read it a little slower and think about what it means. How was that?
Even Paul Ryan knows the "intent"
"Now, I think it’s regrettable that there was some confusion on the rollout of this,” Mr. Ryan added. “No one wanted to see people with green cards or special immigrant visas, like translators, get caught up in all of this."
I might have even posted a tweet of Pres. Trump's where he called it a "ban".
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