Charlottesville

[scottw]

Originally Posted by wdmso

You sounded rational until you end it with a conspiracy theory ..
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I wouldn't want to disappoint you

[wdmso]

Originally Posted by Slipknot

So all this speak of Nazis and racists and slave owners of the past, are we still diligent about a terrorist attack? stupid distraction, more tearing down of a president and gives young liberals a cause to get behind. How about go to work and work hard.
this thread is a communication nightmare

No one had an issue trying to tear down the last president for 8 years Why is this unacceptable now?
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[doc]

Originally Posted by JohnR

Gotta run because of work but a couple points:

• Hold ALL politicians to a higher standard regardless of party
• Historical context between administrations does matter
• I really think Trump is a fool and a tool but he has not been afforded the same level of top cover that a Dem would get - because of Bias.
• That bias and the disastrous polices of Dem Politicians are why I am no longer a Democrat but a moderate, unaffiliated, generally independent
• I will put my history knowledge as better than 90% here - which is why I equate evil Commies with Evil Nazis
• I think the US Constitution is the greatest document to protect human kind ever
• The First Amendment even protects a s s hole Nazis and Klans and white Suprems - just as it protects good people like us and just as it protects those that would undermine it like Communitst, ANTIFA, Anarchists, etc.
• If you cannot separate why that is a good thing, even if it protects the despicable showboating of the Nazis then you do not understand or give enough emphasis on the environment that allowed the original Nazis (or Commies) space to grow.
  
  We can have a further discuss later - perfect happy too.

I dont disagree with most of what you have said. However, how Trump has handled what happened in Charlottesville was careless and offensive and ultimately I fear dangerous. There should not be much disagreement about that.

[JohnR]

And I am adjusting my history knowledge down from 90% to better than 80% here on further reflection ; ) .

[JohnR]

Originally Posted by doc

I dont disagree with most of what you have said. However, how Trump has handled what happened in Charlottesville was careless and offensive and ultimately I fear dangerous. There should not be much disagreement about that.

I agree - like many things he has handled it poorly. He could screw up a sunny fall afternoon.

BUT I do think that it is unfair and unwise to say a there is no moral equivalent between the utlra right and their spew with the utlra left and theirs. Because Nazis.

That is a very simplistic and reactionary response that does not delve into WHY it is wrong and WHY other movements are also wrong. But is the response many make in their sky-is-falling kabuki theater rants.

[Got Stripers]

Good couple of posts and Boss as always, you are the voice of reason.

[scottw]

Originally Posted by JohnR

Because Nazis.

I suspect the real nazis would be pretty depressed seeing their movement now represented by a bunch of toothless goobers playing dress up on occasion...

do we know who is in charge?

[The Dad Fisherman]

Originally Posted by wdmso

No one had an issue trying to tear down the last president for 8 years Why is this unacceptable now?
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No One......really??? NO ONE????

its just the other side of the same coin.

[Got Stripers]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

"A strong leader with any common sense "

He's not a strong leader and he doesn't have a lot of common sense. That's not remotely the same thing, as him being a Nazi sympathizer.

You were the one who implied he is somehow to blame for a synagogue getting vandalized. Ivanka and her husband are Jews.

Criticize him all day long for being a bully, a jerk, a baby, a narcissist., a womanizer. There is all the evidence in the world that he is all of those things. There is zero evidence he sympathizes with white supremacists, and plenty of evidence he condemns them.

I never blamed Trump for the Jewish memorial being trashed for a second time, but I think the rhetoric he used all throughout the campaign and since validates and in some cases encourages these nuts to take action where maybe without that presidential OK they might not have. I wouldn't have to look far to bring numerous examples of Trumps words encouraging violence throughout his campaign and since.

The 900+ hate groups in this country love this POTUS; just ask David Duke. It's sad that we have this many hate groups in the USA, I was somewhat surprised to see the scope of that list this morning. I also think it's sad that we have so many disillusioned youths in this country, that might not have any affiliation with these groups, but might be more easily pushed towards violence with all the attention this is getting.

Yeah I agree the media is brutal towards Trump, but if you keep throwing a nice chunk of Bunker in front of their face every single day, they are going to take the bait. Hey it is fishing board guys, lets have a little humor, this board, the media and everything you read is just do depressing.

I've said it before, I hope Trump just get's his head out of his arse and gets back on the task of governing. It's no secret I think he is a clown, but for the sake of the country and the well being of us all, I wish he turns this around soon. Take the news clip I just saw briefly over lunch and let me say up front, I don't know if this is true or not. If Trump is now looking to save the Robert E. Lee statue, I have to shake my head and say are you Fing kidding me. The guy just doesn't know when to change the rhetoric and the course of things towards a solution or to take positive steps to diffuse a bad situation. Instead let's throw more wood on the fire and suggest a man that tried to take the country down and was a known brutal slave owner, that his likeness is somehow something we should look up to.

I just have to question is he even listening to the people around him? He is a gut jerk, reactionary, thin skinned fool.

[Slipknot]

Yes Bob, he sure is not Ronald Reagan that's for sure.

[Slipknot]

Originally Posted by wdmso

No one had an issue trying to tear down the last president for 8 years Why is this unacceptable now?
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"No one" is quite an exaggeration but you are entitled to your opinion. I personally had a problem with the disrespect of the last president and it is uncalled for now no matter how much of a horrible person you think he is.

I did not say it's unacceptable now suddenly.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion but there should be a certain amount of respect.

Maybe he can get some negotiations done while battling everyone including media bashing 24/7, who knows, time will tell. I see his counterpunch got the mental guy in NK to back off the launch button at least.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Got Stripers

I never blamed Trump for the Jewish memorial being trashed for a second time, but I think the rhetoric he used all throughout the campaign and since validates and in some cases encourages these nuts to take action where maybe without that presidential OK they might not have. I wouldn't have to look far to bring numerous examples of Trumps words encouraging violence throughout his campaign and since.

The 900+ hate groups in this country love this POTUS; just ask David Duke. It's sad that we have this many hate groups in the USA, I was somewhat surprised to see the scope of that list this morning. I also think it's sad that we have so many disillusioned youths in this country, that might not have any affiliation with these groups, but might be more easily pushed towards violence with all the attention this is getting.

Yeah I agree the media is brutal towards Trump, but if you keep throwing a nice chunk of Bunker in front of their face every single day, they are going to take the bait. Hey it is fishing board guys, lets have a little humor, this board, the media and everything you read is just do depressing.

I've said it before, I hope Trump just get's his head out of his arse and gets back on the task of governing. It's no secret I think he is a clown, but for the sake of the country and the well being of us all, I wish he turns this around soon. Take the news clip I just saw briefly over lunch and let me say up front, I don't know if this is true or not. If Trump is now looking to save the Robert E. Lee statue, I have to shake my head and say are you Fing kidding me. The guy just doesn't know when to change the rhetoric and the course of things towards a solution or to take positive steps to diffuse a bad situation. Instead let's throw more wood on the fire and suggest a man that tried to take the country down and was a known brutal slave owner, that his likeness is somehow something we should look up to.

I just have to question is he even listening to the people around him? He is a gut jerk, reactionary, thin skinned fool.

"but I think the rhetoric he used all throughout the campaign and since validates and in some cases encourages these nuts to take action"

And the guy who shot up the softball game in DC, was inspired by Bernie Sanders. There are kooks out there. I never once heard anyone claim Sanders was responsible for that. Because he wasn't.

Now, Bernie Sanders doesn't have a history of saying stupid, irresponsible things like Trump does when he says he'll pay to defend anyone who gets arrested for punching a protestor in the face. But for anyone to take that idiotic statement, and make the leap to running someone down in their car, is an act of madness, and I don't think Trump is responsible for that.

Trump's past statements show that he is a jerk. I don't think they show that he sympathizes with white supremacists. What about all of his clear denunciations of David Duke, the Klan, and bigotry?

Trump should have been more thoughtful in his statement. But no matter what he said, 99% of the media was going to attack him for it. It just doesn't matter what he says or does.

[Cool Beans]

This is all nonsense to me, the law protects Free Speech. If every time a group (any group) legally receives their permit to gather and protest, some other group shows up (without a permit) to shout over or start violence with the initial group, we are illegally preventing the initial groups free speech rights. I can't stand either group involved in this, but one attempted to protest the removal of the statue with a permit and the other one prevented them to lawfully protest. I would say the exact same thing if the situation was reversed. If it was Antifa and BLM with the permit to protest the statue and wanted it removed, and these Nazi groups showed up (without a permit) to shout them down then the law should protect the Antifa BLM people, just like in this case the police should have prevented the groups from interacting and prohibited the groups that were not holding permits from protesting.

The media spins it out of control about racist this and racist that. It's simply a law, want to hold a parade or protest for anything, legally get a permit, and then nobody should stop you from legally holding your event. if you don't support their cause, stay away and ignore them. DONT GIVE THEM MORE ATTENTION THAN THEY DESERVE. all this did was make more racists on both sides angrier and more resolved.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman

No One......really??? NO ONE????

its just the other side of the same coin.

Nope, no one. No one at MSNBC did anything to give Obama a fair shake. They all hated him. That's the way I remember it.,

[wdmso]

Trump calls removal of Confederate monuments 'so foolish'

Trump: Removing statues rips apart US culture



I would like to see data on when theses Monuments were erected and what was said during the ceremony.. for example its not history if it was put in place in 1950 and the war ended in 1865..
if they were erected 30 years after the war then they historical ... not sure how that works?

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by wdmso

Trump calls removal of Confederate monuments 'so foolish'

Trump: Removing statues rips apart US culture



I would like to see data on when theses Monuments were erected and what was said during the ceremony.. for example its not history if it was put in place in 1950 and the war ended in 1865..
if they were erected 30 years after the war then they historical ... not sure how that works?

Miriam Webster Definition of historical:
1
a: of, relating to, or having the character of history, historical data
b: based on history historical novels
c: used in the past and reproduced in historical presentations
2: famous in history

[JohnR]

Originally Posted by Got Stripers

Good couple of posts and Boss as always, you are the voice of reason.

Thank you , I think

Originally Posted by scottw

I suspect the real nazis would be pretty depressed seeing their movement now represented by a bunch of toothless goobers playing dress up on occasion...

do we know who is in charge?

Yes. Their capabilities fortunately (hopefully) should stop long before Kristallnacht (so far)

Originally Posted by Cool Beans

This is all nonsense to me, the law protects Free Speech. If every time a group (any group) legally receives their permit to gather and protest, some other group shows up (without a permit) to shout over or start violence with the initial group, we are illegally preventing the initial groups free speech rights. I can't stand either group involved in this, but one attempted to protest the removal of the statue with a permit and the other one prevented them to lawfully protest. I would say the exact same thing if the situation was reversed. If it was Antifa and BLM with the permit to protest the statue and wanted it removed, and these Nazi groups showed up (without a permit) to shout them down then the law should protect the Antifa BLM people, just like in this case the police should have prevented the groups from interacting and prohibited the groups that were not holding permits from protesting.

^ This.

Originally Posted by Cool Beans

The media spins it out of control about racist this and racist that. It's simply a law, want to hold a parade or protest for anything, legally get a permit, and then nobody should stop you from legally holding your event. if you don't support their cause, stay away and ignore them. DONT GIVE THEM MORE ATTENTION THAN THEY DESERVE. all this did was make more racists on both sides angrier and more resolved.

When ratings meet commentary.

Oh, and is a Right, not a Law

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by wdmso

Trump calls removal of Confederate monuments 'so foolish'

Trump: Removing statues rips apart US culture



I would like to see data on when theses Monuments were erected and what was said during the ceremony.. for example its not history if it was put in place in 1950 and the war ended in 1865..
if they were erected 30 years after the war then they historical ... not sure how that works?

Condaleeza Rice also says taking down those statues is foolish (she doesn't like whitewashing our history to make us feel better). I happen to disagree with her, I think they should come down. But that doesn't make her a racist, a white supremacist, or a Nazi, does it?

http://eheadlines.com/condi-rice-giv...-lesson-video/

Robert Byrd was in the Senate forever, Hilary said he was her mentor. And that's OK. But when Trump says "I disavow David Duke", and when he says "I condemn violence and bigotry", that's not OK. That just makes all kinds of sense.

[buckman]

Still awaiting the lefts outrage that Trump has not had a forceful condemnation for those responsible for Barcelona today ...... he better do it soon or it will be too late
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[buckman]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

Condaleeza Rice also says taking down those statues is foolish (she doesn't like whitewashing our history to make us feel better). I happen to disagree with her, I think they should come down. But that doesn't make her a racist, a white supremacist, or a Nazi, does it?

http://eheadlines.com/condi-rice-giv...-lesson-video/

Robert Byrd was in the Senate forever, Hilary said he was her mentor. And that's OK. But when Trump says "I disavow David Duke", and when he says "I condemn violence and bigotry", that's not OK. That just makes all kinds of sense.

Lots of streets and buildings named after Byrd . See ya
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[Cool Beans]

Originally Posted by JohnR

Oh, and is a Right, not a Law

I was in no way saying free speech wasnt a Right, but was referring to the city ordnance/law that allows for lawful demonstrations only when issued a permit by the city manager.

Sec. 28-29. - Street parades, processions, and other events.

No parade or procession of any kind shall be held or conducted in any city rights-of-way without first obtaining a permit from the city manager.

(Code 1976, § 25-25; 11-16-98(3); Ord. of 3-5-01(2))

Taken from Charlottesville city code. This city Law governs how the cities law enforcement should have protected the permitted parties Rights of free speech . If they would have enforced the law, and kept non permitted parties from the area, this would have blown over like a distant f-a-r-t in the wind. "On the news today, some crazy Nazzis waved flags and NOBODY cares".....

[JohnR]

Ahhh - gotcha

[Sea Dangles]

Originally Posted by wdmso

Trump calls removal of Confederate monuments 'so foolish'

Trump: Removing statues rips apart US culture



I would like to see data on when theses Monuments were erected and what was said during the ceremony.. for example its not history if it was put in place in 1950 and the war ended in 1865..
if they were erected 30 years after the war then they historical ... not sure how that works?

In the case of the statue I saw blm protesting in SC a couple nights ago,it was erected before the civil war. It seems it was a tribute from the community which was paid for with privately raised money. It is Of a fellow named Calhoun who also has a park and a street named after him.
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[wdmso]

Originally Posted by buckman

Still awaiting the lefts outrage that Trump has not had a forceful condemnation for those responsible for Barcelona today ...... he better do it soon or it will be too late
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Trump pushes debunked 'pig's blood' myth, hours after Barcelona attack

Study what General Pershing of the United States did to terrorists when caught. There was no more Radical Islamic Terror for 35 years!

another fail

[scottw]

Originally Posted by Cool Beans

I was in no way saying free speech wasnt a Right, but was referring to the city ordnance/law that allows for lawful demonstrations only when issued a permit by the city manager.

Sec. 28-29. - Street parades, processions, and other events.

No parade or procession of any kind shall be held or conducted in any city rights-of-way without first obtaining a permit from the city manager.

(Code 1976, § 25-25; 11-16-98(3); Ord. of 3-5-01(2))

Taken from Charlottesville city code. This city Law governs how the cities law enforcement should have protected the permitted parties Rights of free speech . If they would have enforced the law, and kept non permitted parties from the area, this would have blown over like a distant f-a-r-t in the wind. "On the news today, some crazy Nazzis waved flags and NOBODY cares".....

if these things need to be approved....I'm assuming they can also be denied? I believe a community has the right to refuse to have something like this occur in their yard....you can cite a host of reasons in denying the permit ...let them take it to court or find another place to make fools of themselves, I doubt they'd have the stomach or wherewithal to fight it and if they take their complaints to the media dressed in whacko drag....won't be much sympathy there either.....

[nightfighter]

Removing some of these statues is not the answer. If you rewrite your history you are bound to repeat it.... Just look at Europe as an example. The last generation to survive a world war is passing on, and leaving us with no examples to show the way.
As for the statues; they are of the leaders of the South, who are widely known to have LOST. SURRENDERED. Their way of life was beaten down, and with it, slavery was abolished. Lee was the top graduate in his class from West Point and served in US Army for 32 years before following his state in the succession. He deeply hoped for the union to continue, and was offered a senior command in the Union army.... But he is universally acknowledged as the military leader of the side that LOST. That is what he symbolizes, as do the other statues of those Confederate South leaders. Next we will be burning all copies of Gone With The Wind.... The symbolism of this is off the mark IMO.

Trump is not the answer.
Extremists are not the answer, but will always make themselves known for the wrong reasons.
Anything Nazi or Supremist is unacceptable. I will choose to focus on those two labels, but it goes across the board as far as intolerance.

[JohnR]

Originally Posted by Sea Dangles

In the case of the statue I saw blm protesting in SC a couple nights ago,it was erected before the civil war. It seems it was a tribute from the community which was paid for with privately raised money. It is Of a fellow named Calhoun who also has a park and a street named after him.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

John Calhoun was one of the generators of the conditions that helped lead SC to secede first from the nation. He died well before the collapse that came from his policies. Interesting and controversial figure

Originally Posted by wdmso

Trump pushes debunked 'pig's blood' myth, hours after Barcelona attack

Study what General Pershing of the United States did to terrorists when caught. There was no more Radical Islamic Terror for 35 years!

another fail

Yep - absolutely stupid. This is why people should not believe memes on the Internet

Originally Posted by scottw

if these things need to be approved....I'm assuming they can also be denied? I believe a community has the right to refuse to have something like this occur in their yard....you can cite a host of reasons in denying the permit ...let them take it to court or find another place to make fools of themselves, I doubt they'd have the stomach or wherewithal to fight it and if they take their complaints to the media dressed in whacko drag....won't be much sympathy there either.....

Dunno. I don't want to see Neonazis marching anywhere but is is worth denying a Constitutional right? Maybe relegate them to a swampy area of the park ; )

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by nightfighter

Removing some of these statues is not the answer. If you rewrite your history you are bound to repeat it.... Just look at Europe as an example. The last generation to survive a world war is passing on, and leaving us with no examples to show the way.
As for the statues; they are of the leaders of the South, who are widely known to have LOST. SURRENDERED. Their way of life was beaten down, and with it, slavery was abolished. Lee was the top graduate in his class from West Point and served in US Army for 32 years before following his state in the succession. He deeply hoped for the union to continue, and was offered a senior command in the Union army.... But he is universally acknowledged as the military leader of the side that LOST. That is what he symbolizes, as do the other statues of those Confederate South leaders. Next we will be burning all copies of Gone With The Wind.... The symbolism of this is off the mark IMO.

Trump is not the answer.
Extremists are not the answer, but will always make themselves known for the wrong reasons.
Anything Nazi or Supremist is unacceptable. I will choose to focus on those two labels, but it goes across the board as far as intolerance.

I don't know that removing statues is re-writing history.

If there is a monument that is there just as an historical marker, that's fine. If the statue is a tribute to the man, that's something else. I was in Nashville last year, and saw a state of Robert E Lee. If the plaque said "Robert E Lee fought a battle here", I would have no problem with that. The plaque was an honor to the man, and the last line was something about thanking him "for the noble cause he dedicated to". Now, I can see where that is DEEPLY offensive to a lot of people. The noble cause, was the right to commit treason, for the sake of enslaving his fellow man. You can argue the cause was state's rights I guess.

I see the left side on this one. But I also figure if Condaleeza Rice is fine with leaving them up, then why should I care if it doesn't bother her, she has a bigger dog in this hunt then me...

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by JohnR

John Calhoun was one of the generators of the conditions that helped lead SC to secede first from the nation. He died well before the collapse that came from his policies. Interesting and controversial figure




Yep - absolutely stupid. This is why people should not believe memes on the Internet




Dunno. I don't want to see Neonazis marching anywhere but is is worth denying a Constitutional right? Maybe relegate them to a swampy area of the park ; )

"Yep - absolutely stupid. This is why people should not believe memes on the Internet"

That's a statement worth criticizing him for, one of many. As opposed to "I condemn violence and bigotry..."

"I don't want to see Neonazis marching anywhere but is is worth denying a Constitutional right?"

In my opinion, the answer is no. We can't be selective about who the Bill Of Rights protects, and who it does not, as long as they are law abiding. But this is exactly what the left is trying to do with conservative speakers on college campuses. And you will never, not in a million years, see the ACLU fight for the right of Ann Coulter or Ben Shapiro to speak in public space at a public university. Never, ever, ever.

[PaulS]

I can see a distinction bt a statue to the conferderate soldiers and to someone like Lee. Also, from what I have seen there seems to be a correlation bt when the statues got put up and when significant gains where made by minorities.

And I don't believe for a moment this was solely about a protest to leave statues up. If so, why the vile chants, the use of the torches, etc.

I haven't read all the posts but who are the good people who marched w/the Neo Nazis?

Can someone explain what is meant by "good"?