What happened to fixing things through conversation?

[Ian]

At what point did the majority of people on both sides of every issue think it was easier to just overreact and yell at each other rather than attempt to broker some kind of moderates conversation to find common ground?

Cops getting suspended for pushing people while following orders
People getting fired for saying the wrong thing
Twitter backlash for everything

There was a time in this world where your punishment for unpopular behavior was to be subjected to a conversation which was meant to expose you to a rational counterpoint to your interpretation of things.

It’s how people end up changing, when someone they relate to has their eyes opened to the fact that things aren’t binary and just because you are right doesn’t mean someone else has to be wrong.

I wish we could start some kind of movement where the following happened more:

Black people get assaulted by police: community members and the police sit down with professional moderators so both sides can better understand each others’ perspective

Someone says something unpopular on Twitter: they keep their job and get some Diversity, Equity and Inclusion training from someone and becomes a voice for expanding your perspective

Etc, etc.

This cancel culture stuff is murdering our world, one massive media frenzy at a time. If we really want change, driving people further into sheltered opinions about the world isn’t going to get us anywhere. We’ll all just retreat into our corners and procreate.

[scottw]

Originally Posted by Ian

There was a time in this world where your punishment for unpopular behavior was to be subjected to a conversation which was meant to expose you to a rational counterpoint to your interpretation of things.

when exactly was this?...just curious

[Ian]

Originally Posted by scottw

when exactly was this?...just curious

That’s what the “reform” in our criminal justice system was supposed to mean.

Cold-cocked punishment alone doesn’t work.

I feel like we used to do a much better job of that before the blast radius for a stupid comment was to all of humanity in 6 seconds + a comments section.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[JohnR]

Originally Posted by Ian

That’s what the “reform” in our criminal justice system was supposed to mean.

Cold-cocked punishment alone doesn’t work.

I feel like we used to do a much better job of that before the blast radius for a stupid comment was to all of humanity in 6 seconds + a comments section.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

It works better when people sit down and work things out. Yelling over keyboards is not conducive to much.

Certain elements benefit by dividing, not uniting.

[Ian]

Originally Posted by JohnR

It works better when people sit down and work things out. Yelling over keyboards is not conducive to much.

Certain elements benefit by dividing, not uniting.

Yelling is the problem, keyboards only make it easier to get away with it.

As to the elements who benefit, the news right now is the biggest one of them, which is the tragedy in the reality of where we are right now: the narrative (all of them, regardless of perspective) is being controlled, VERY publicly, by people/companies/etc who have no incentive for you to go back to your daily lives.

So if we’re going to adjust/restructure funding for police, maybe we can get a media earmark in that bill too.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Ian

People getting fired for saying the wrong thing
.

Especially when the wrong thing that gets you fired, is saying "all lives matter".

If I say 'all lives matter', and somehow what you hear is 'black lives don't matter', i'm pretty sure that's your problem, not my problem. Saying all lives matter necessarily means that black lives matter, and it doesn't mean that I don't agree that there's some residual racism left that we need to work on.

And I though liberals were all about free speech?

[spence]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

Especially when the wrong thing that gets you fired, is saying "all lives matter".

If I say 'all lives matter', and somehow what you hear is 'black lives don't matter', i'm pretty sure that's your problem, not my problem. Saying all lives matter necessarily means that black lives matter, and it doesn't mean that I don't agree that there's some residual racism left that we need to work on.

And I though liberals were all about free speech?

Pretty tone deaf Jim.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

Pretty tone deaf Jim.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Pretty snowflake-y Spence. I said black lives matter, I said that blacks have unique issues we need to address.

Call that tone deaf if you want, I don't see it. Except to you that any attempt to talk about anything that doesn't serve the liberal agenda, is tone-deaf. It's a lame political ploy to deny that there are some facts and results that are contrary to liberal talking points. Liberals don't like to concede this.

[JohnR]

Originally Posted by Ian

As to the elements who benefit, the news right now is the biggest one of them, which is the tragedy in the reality of where we are right now: the narrative (all of them, regardless of perspective) is being controlled, VERY publicly, by people/companies/etc who have no incentive for you to go back to your daily lives.

So if we’re going to adjust/restructure funding for police, maybe we can get a media earmark in that bill too.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Companies like NYTimes? WAPO? They are having a protest revolt at the moment because the staff, particularly the younger ones, want to be more partisan than, organizationally, they were before.

So this circular fuel will be one more (large) shift to further drive people away from the center - exactly the opposite of what is needed.

[wdmso]

Nothing changes by just asking or this would have been fixed decades ago.

De fund the police not going to happen un do the militarization of the police that will help
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[Pete F.]

The City Council of Minneapolis wants to change how their police force operates and because of state laws these elected officials have been unable to for years.

State Attorney General Keith Ellison said he is well aware the state has long-standing policing challenges. “The reforms thus far have been halting, inadequate, and just put it on the shelf until we get to the next tragedy,” he said. “Without tragedies to keep propelling it, it gets ignored after a while.”Ellison said that it will take cultural and political change to fix the relationship between police and the communities in Minnesota, but that policy fixes can help. The COVID-19 pandemic stalled the progress of a working group on “police-involved deadly force encounters,” which Ellison leads alongside the state’s public safety commissioner. In February, the group released 28 recommendations including new training standards and independent investigations into the use of deadly force.But many of the suggested changes require the state legislature’s approval. If the recent past is any guide, they are unlikely to gain much traction. Since 2015, elected leaders have proposed more than a dozen police reform bills, but failed to pass or substantially advance any of them. Several of the failed bills would have overhauled statewide standards for when cops can use force, and set up independent investigations for fatal incidents. Another would have funded training on racial bias and de-escalation for officers in the state’s larger departments.Some of Ellison’s proposals fall under the guidance of the state’s Peace Officers Standards and Training Board, or POST, which oversees police licences for all law enforcement across Minnesota. Those suggestions would beef up the board’s power to suspend or revoke a cop’s license. But at present, Ellison said, the agency doesn’t have enough power to enforce standards and the legislature has not adopted a proposal to give it that power.“Currently POST is not a force for change,” Ellison said. “It’s more of just a passthrough.”Ellison, who was outspoken on policing issues as a six-term U.S. Congressman, said if he was dissatisfied with county prosecutor Mike Freeman’s handling of the Floyd case, he could ask the governor to hand the case to the Attorney General’s office, where Ellison could oversee the prosecution directly.Freeman said late Thursday in a press conference that while “no person should do” what officer Chauvin did, “there’s other evidence that does not support a criminal charge,” and that he wasn’t going to “rush to justice.”It remained unclear whether charges against the officers would stop violent protests that on Thursday entered their third day and prompted the governor to activate the National Guard.And a criminal prosecution might not bring peace to Floyd’s family. After Castile’s death in 2016, officer Jeronimo Yanez was charged in the killing, but a jury found him not guilty of all charges.Asked what he would tell people like Castile, who are frustrated and feel that little or nothing has changed, Ellison replied: "I only got one thing for Valerie in that regard. We have to try. I'm not going to tell her something has changed. I'm going to tell her we're going to try to change it."

[The Dad Fisherman]

Originally Posted by wdmso

De fund the police not going to happen un do the militarization of the police that will help
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Not sure I see a correlation between what happened to George Floyd and over militarization of the police force. He was killed from a knee on the throat.

Whenever something like this happens we always muddy the waters with other issues, and then nothing gets fixed. From what I can tell, there's a problem within the Minneapolis Police Department that allowed this guy to keep his job even after being written up dozens of times. Maybe that's what people should be focusing on fixing first.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[scottw]

Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman

. From what I can tell, there's a problem within the Minneapolis Police Department that allowed this guy to keep his job even after being written up dozens of times. Maybe that's what people should be focusing on fixing first.

Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

bingo...take it up with the people you elected

[spence]

Originally Posted by JohnR

Companies like NYTimes? WAPO? They are having a protest revolt at the moment because the staff, particularly the younger ones, want to be more partisan than, organizationally, they were before.

Or maybe they're just trying to keep the papers centered. The Cotton op-ed seemed a bit problematic both factually and in spirit from what I read of it. The headline of "all buildings matter" was way out of bounds.

[scottw]

Originally Posted by spence

Or maybe they're just trying to keep the papers centered.

.

this is hilarious

[Sea Dangles]

Real insight matters

[JohnR]

Originally Posted by scottw

this is hilarious

I know, right?

[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by JohnR

I know, right?

If that’s hilarious, then how do you classify police in Minneapolis slashing tires on parked cars?
Hysterical?
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[JohnR]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

If that’s hilarious, then how do you classify police in Minneapolis slashing tires on parked cars?
Hysterical?
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

No, It is stupid and childish.

Hysterical was the rumor of the guy that dressed up in black bloc and put Trump stickers on protester cars and the riotous protestors proceeded to bash those cars.

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by JohnR

No, It is stupid and childish.

Probably stupid. Probably not childish. The slashers were doing it on orders from higher ups, not on a childish whim. And the Minneapolis police were not involved in the slashing.

From Forbes:

“State Patrol troopers strategically deflated tires,” Department of Public Safety spokesman Bruce Gordon told The Star Tribune on Monday, “in order to stop behaviors such as vehicles driving dangerously and at high speeds in and around protesters and law enforcement.”

Gordon also said that the patrol targeted vehicles containing items used to cause harm during the protests, and admitted that this is “not a typical tactic.”

The Anoka County Sheriff’s Lieutenant Andy Knotz said that county deputies followed orders from the state’s Multiagency Command Center to join the patrol and slash tires.

Minneapolis Police Department, Hennepin County, and National Guard officers were not involved in the slashing.

[scottw]

Originally Posted by detbuch

And the Minneapolis police were not involved in the slashing.

From Forbes:

“State Patrol troopers strategically deflated tires,” Department of Public Safety spokesman Bruce Gordon told The Star Tribune on Monday,
Minneapolis Police Department, Hennepin County, and National Guard officers were not involved in the slashing.

I keep hoping pete will get something right....

hey...who is in charge of the State Police troopers?

.... the State Patrol Chief, who has the rank of Colonel and reports directly to the Minnesota Commissioner of Public Safety, who is appointed by the Governor and serves in the Governor's Cabinet.

The current governor of Minnesota is Tim Walz of the Democratic-Farmer-Labor Party


hmmmmmm...?????

[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by detbuch

Probably stupid. Probably not childish. The slashers were doing it on orders from higher ups, not on a childish whim. And the Minneapolis police were not involved in the slashing.

From Forbes:

“State Patrol troopers strategically deflated tires,” Department of Public Safety spokesman Bruce Gordon told The Star Tribune on Monday, “in order to stop behaviors such as vehicles driving dangerously and at high speeds in and around protesters and law enforcement.”

Gordon also said that the patrol targeted vehicles containing items used to cause harm during the protests, and admitted that this is “not a typical tactic.”

The Anoka County Sheriff’s Lieutenant Andy Knotz said that county deputies followed orders from the state’s Multiagency Command Center to join the patrol and slash tires.

Minneapolis Police Department, Hennepin County, and National Guard officers were not involved in the slashing.

Your usual baloney

Every car in the parking lot is strategic?

Once again the law enforcement community breaks the law with impunity, lies and expects it to be accepted because they think they are above the law. I see the same people who claim that Tweety and his cohorts were investigated without evidence calling this extrajudicial action acceptable.

Just like these.

“Man Dies After Medical Incident During Police Interaction.”

"During that skirmish involving protestors, one person was injured when he tripped & fell."

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by scottw

this is hilarious

Sort of like a movement called Black Lives Matter, that vandalized memorials to Abraham Lincoln and the Massachusetts 54th Regiment (all black regiment in the Civil War). What did Lincoln and the Massachusett's 54th ever do for black people, right?

This whole thing is like something out of SNL or MAD magazine. It's a parody of a political movement. It's a farce.

"I care about black lives! So let's reduce or eliminate the police! If we do that, blacks in Chicago and Baltimore will live forever!"

The Washington Post is as liberal as it gets. And according to their data, 9 unarmed blacks were killed by police in 2019. Now one is too many, but it's not an epidemic. Coincidentally, that's the same number that were murdered in Chicago over Memorial Day weekend.

But let's tear the country apart over the police, and never speak of what people in the cities are doing to each other. Why ignore the major problem to focus on the more rare problem, you ask? Because the large-scale problem (gang violence in cities, and the socio-economic causes of that violence) doesn't help liberals win elections. Shrieking about police brutality, does help liberals win elections. And that's what this is obviously about.

[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by scottw

I keep hoping pete will get something right....

hey...who is in charge of the State Police troopers?

.... the State Patrol Chief, who has the rank of Colonel and reports directly to the Minnesota Commissioner of Public Safety, who is appointed by the Governor and serves in the Governor's Cabinet.

The current governor of Minnesota is Tim Walz of the Democratic-Farmer-Labor Party


hmmmmmm...?????

Don't worry, they will do a proper legal investigation and not just slash the troopers tires.

Governor Tim Walz
@GovTimWalz
In honor of the funeral for George Floyd, we ask all Minnesotans to spend 8 minutes and 46 seconds in silence at 11am this morning.

[Pete F.]

That's what happens when you follow a conspiracy theorist, who spends his mornings watching Russian disinformation on his shows.

Donald J. Trump
@realDonaldTrump
· 2h
Buffalo protester shoved by Police could be an ANTIFA provocateur. 75 year old Martin Gugino was pushed away after appearing to scan police communications in order to black out the equipment. @OANN I watched, he fell harder than was pushed. Was aiming scanner. Could be a set up?

A response from the editor of America Magazine to the leader of the Magazone

James Martin, SJ
@JamesMartinSJ
·
1h
#MartinGugino is a peace activist and volunteer with the Catholic Worker movement. Why spread rumors about someone who embodies the Beatitudes? In case you've forgotten what's in the Bible you were carrying, Jesus said, "Blessed are the peacemakers," not the rumormongers.

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

Your usual baloney

You mean Forbes usual baloney? I quoted Forbes.

Every car in the parking lot is strategic?

You'll have to ask the state’s Multiagency Command Center. They ordered it. I SAID IT WAS PROBABLY STUPID. But just more of your stupid baloney trying to blame the baloney on me. Or maybe you're as stupid as the guys who ordered the slashing.

nce again the law enforcement community breaks the law with impunity, lies and expects it to be accepted because they think they are above the law. I see the same people who claim that Tweety and his cohorts were investigated without evidence calling this extrajudicial action acceptable.

Just like these.

“Man Dies After Medical Incident During Police Interaction.”

"During that skirmish involving protestors, one person was injured when he tripped & fell."

Are you assuming that the rest of us are not aware of government malfeasance at all levels, including law enforcement?

Oh, and we're aware that there are millions of non-government thugs and criminals as well. Like ANTIFA, and peaceful protesters who throw stuff at cops and beat and maim MAGA folks.

[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by detbuch

Are you assuming that the rest of us are not aware of government malfeasance at all levels, including law enforcement?

Oh, and we're aware that there are millions of non-government thugs and criminals as well. Like ANTIFA, and peaceful protesters who throw stuff at cops and beat and maim MAGA folks.

Giving me another serving, I see

Rep. Val Demings
@RepValDemings
·
29m
The president and attorney general have tried to blame the “left wing” for violence at police reform rallies. Evidence actually shows that far-right and white nationalist militias have been involved. We’re requesting all available intelligence from FBI and DHS.

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

Giving me another serving, I see

Rep. Val Demings
@RepValDemings
·
29m
The president and attorney general have tried to blame the “left wing” for violence at police reform rallies. Evidence actually shows that far-right and white nationalist militias have been involved. We’re requesting all available intelligence from FBI and DHS.

So? What's that got to do with me? Have I denied that there are "far right" or "white nationalist" thugs and criminals. Are you trying to deny that "far left" or ANTIFA thugs and criminals were not involved?

[spence]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

That's what happens when you follow a conspiracy theorist, who spends his mornings watching Russian disinformation on his shows.

Donald J. Trump
@realDonaldTrump
· 2h
Buffalo protester shoved by Police could be an ANTIFA provocateur. 75 year old Martin Gugino was pushed away after appearing to scan police communications in order to black out the equipment. @OANN I watched, he fell harder than was pushed. Was aiming scanner. Could be a set up?

A response from the editor of America Magazine to the leader of the Magazone

James Martin, SJ
@JamesMartinSJ
·
1h
#MartinGugino is a peace activist and volunteer with the Catholic Worker movement. Why spread rumors about someone who embodies the Beatitudes? In case you've forgotten what's in the Bible you were carrying, Jesus said, "Blessed are the peacemakers," not the rumormongers.

And then you get stuff like this happening, must have been terrifying.

FORKS, WASH. (AP) — Authorities say a multiracial family camping on the Olympic Peninsula in Washington state was harassed and confronted by people who accused them of being political activists with antifa and trapped them at a remote campsite in the woods.

Trump is trying to start a culture war and people are going to die because of it. JohnR is not helping.

[scottw]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

Once again the law enforcement community breaks the law with impunity, lies and expects it to be accepted

wait...if the state troopers slashed tires on orders from "higher ups" are they breaking the law?

do you thing "higher ups" would order tires slashed without the governor's or mayor's knowledge and/or approval?