Waterboarding

[MarshCappa]

Take a look at this article. It would be too bad if the CIA isn't given the latitude to keep up these practices. I'm all for it!


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30302830/

[EarnedStripes44]

I wouldnt worry about the CIA. But the authors of the legal rationalization- I would imagine they are sweating.

[spence]

Originally Posted by EarnedStripes44

I wouldnt worry about the CIA. But the authors of the legal rationalization- I would imagine they are sweating.

Why? Considering these people have broken our laws, why should we be bound by any laws in return?

Sometimes two wrongs do make a right, 9/11 changed everything

-spence

[GattaFish]

Originally Posted by spence

Why? Considering these people have broken our laws, why should we be bound by any laws in return?

Sometimes two wrongs do make a right, 9/11 changed everything

-spence

I totally agree with this,,,,, This country better toughen up because the people who want to hurt us play on our softness,,,,

It is amazing to me how fast people have forgotten what terrorists and Islamic militants did to innocent Americans when they kidnapped them,,,,

[spence]

Originally Posted by GattaFish

It is amazing to me how fast people have forgotten what terrorists and Islamic militants did to innocent Americans when they kidnapped them,,,,

They cut their heads off.

Makes me think we should just cut the detainees heads off in response. Now that would get them talking.

-spence

[Brian L]

Damn.. I thought this was a surfing thread..

[EarnedStripes44]

Originally Posted by spence

Why? Considering these people have broken our laws, why should we be bound by any laws in return?


-spence

Its a dangerous precedent.

I only hope Obama is playing chess....

[MarshCappa]

Have you taken a look at the Max security prison these guys go too? It's a 4 star hotel compared to where these terrorists live. A complete joke. I have trouble with this big time.

[EarnedStripes44]

Originally Posted by MarshCappa

Have you taken a look at the Max security prison these guys go too? It's a 4 star hotel compared to where these terrorists live. A complete joke. I have trouble with this big time.

I dont know that western living standards are something terrorist are particularly concerned about. But 23.5 hrs in a cell for years on end is no weekend at Bernies.

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by MarshCappa

Take a look at this article. It would be too bad if the CIA isn't given the latitude to keep up these practices. I'm all for it!

It's great. Aside from the fact that past intelligence officers have declared that no credible or useful evidence has ever been acquired through the techniques.

So yeah, let's continue to torture people even though previous experiences have shown them as an ineffective and unneeded practice.

[MarshCappa]

3 square meals a day, healthcare, religious time, etc. JOKE! No matress, pee in cup or on the floor, if you get sick then you die, no lights, etc. These guys should have nothing and should live as long and painfully as possible. Too many good people died because of these radicals. They need to pay.

[MarshCappa]

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

It's great. Aside from the fact that past intelligence officers have declared that no credible or useful evidence has ever been acquired through the techniques.

So yeah, let's continue to torture people even though previous experiences have shown them as an ineffective and unneeded practice.

I don't usually go off on these rants but being ex-military with a top level security clearance I had access to some sensitive stuff. It's too bad these documents got leaked out. I don't care if we got little or no information from these techniques. If it made them feel like they were going to die then good. They should suffer. Too many innocent hard working families are missing loved ones because of their jealousy of our freedoms and way of life.

[Cool Beans]

After speaking about this with several Marine officers I know, about things like this, almost to a man they told me that this only proves the point that we shouldn't take prisoners. If they are caught in a combat zone, armed and have shot at US forces or their allies, they just get shot. Most of the ones I spoke too, said if they would have been the guy to find Saddam, they would have shot him and sworn it looked like he was going for a weapon. If there is a chance the guy will be released to harm their brother marines, they want to shoot first.

[spence]

Originally Posted by MarshCappa

I don't usually go off on these rants but being ex-military with a top level security clearance I had access to some sensitive stuff. It's too bad these documents got leaked out. I don't care if we got little or no information from these techniques. If it made them feel like they were going to die then good. They should suffer. Too many innocent hard working families are missing loved ones because of their jealousy of our freedoms and way of life.

Yep, and they should realease the video so we can all enjoy the suffering.

-spence

[Nebe]

Originally Posted by MarshCappa

Too many innocent hard working families are missing loved ones because of their jealousy of our freedoms and way of life.

Are you one of those people who think 9/11 happened over jealousy??

[MarshCappa]

Oil, religion, or whatever else caused 9/11, the fact is they committed an act that made an impact on many innocent people. I guess I'm not as smart as you to know the exact reasons why 9/11 happened. I don't know how you could laugh at any of this. All bets off with 9/11. I don't know why I got started on this thread. Too much coffee, pissed about the economy, and then I read that people who killed Americans and if they were free would kill more are being considered torture victims. Sore spot with me and it's personal. Think I'll leave this forum for awhile and cool down.

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by MarshCappa

I don't usually go off on these rants but being ex-military with a top level security clearance I had access to some sensitive stuff. It's too bad these documents got leaked out. I don't care if we got little or no information from these techniques. If it made them feel like they were going to die then good. They should suffer. Too many innocent hard working families are missing loved ones because of their jealousy of our freedoms and way of life.

Too bad the documents got leaked out?

Because the US public shouldn't know that the government tortures people, in the name of saving lives. Yet, those who have been tortured never had any useful information. You're out of your mind.

If the torturing had yielded useful evidence, then you'd be cheering about the documents being released.

Also, the documents weren't "leaked out". They were released.

I don't think they're 'jealous of our freedoms'. I think they're pissed that we effed around in their own lands. Let's not forget that the United States used to have Bin Laden on their payroll during the 1980's Afghan wars.

[spence]

Originally Posted by MarshCappa

Oil, religion, or whatever else caused 9/11, the fact is they committed an act that made an impact on many innocent people. I guess I'm not as smart as you to know the exact reasons why 9/11 happened.

Based on everything I've learned, in a nutshell...

Al Qaeda seeks to overthrow the Saudi government and establish what they feel is an Islamic government that's more true to the Koran instead of a corrput Saudi monarchy.

We're simply standing in their way, and they feel our economy is our underbelly. Hence the attack on the WTC 9/11.

The "they hate us for our freedoms" line is a bunch of crap.

All bets off with 9/11.

Well, no. The biggest gift we could give to terrorists is to cast aside our core values in response to their threat. This, more than anything, proves to the Islamic world that our system is just as flawed as the European and Socialist systems and dictatorships that bin Laden argues have failed muslims around the world.

-spence

[spence]

Originally Posted by Cool Beans

After speaking about this with several Marine officers I know, about things like this, almost to a man they told me that this only proves the point that we shouldn't take prisoners. If they are caught in a combat zone, armed and have shot at US forces or their allies, they just get shot. Most of the ones I spoke too, said if they would have been the guy to find Saddam, they would have shot him and sworn it looked like he was going for a weapon. If there is a chance the guy will be released to harm their brother marines, they want to shoot first.

On this I'd tend to agree, to a point. It has to be very muddy in an urban combat zone against insurgents where the line between enemy and local is difficult to rapidly determine. In general we should give our troops freedom here and the benefit of doubt in the context of the situation.

That being said, they still have rules and must operate within appliable laws, as messy as the business of war is. To kill someone whom you believe to be unarmed for instance, just to make it easier, is ethically wrong IMHO and a very slippery slope.

-spence

[spence]

Originally Posted by MarshCappa

3 square meals a day, healthcare, religious time, etc. JOKE! No matress, pee in cup or on the floor, if you get sick then you die, no lights, etc. These guys should have nothing and should live as long and painfully as possible. Too many good people died because of these radicals. They need to pay.

The vast majority of those held at GTMO were never charged with being radicals. Hell, most were set free...

But for those that we thought had information, the memos describe what the Government could legally do to them. For instance, as David Corn commented...

For example, a detainee, according to the memos, could be handcuffed and shackled--with the handcuffs attached to a chain from the ceiling--and forced to stand naked (except for an adult diaper) for 180 hours in order to deprive him of sleep (not, mind you, to induce pain). Then this person could be thrown against a "flexible false wall" a few times. He could be slapped in the face and abdomen. He could be placed in a cramped space. He could be doused with water as cold as 41 degrees Fahrenheit. And then waterboarded. Throughout all this, the detainee, according to the memos, would be carefully monitored by CIA medical personnel to make sure he is not truly harmed. And the rules discussed in the Justice Department memos do indicate the CIA med teams were supposed to be fastidious and prudent. (If the detainee suffered swelling in his legs or feet because of being forced to stand for too long, he would be shackled in a sitting or horizontal position in which he could not sleep.)

This sure doesn't sound like a picnic to me.

Doesn't sound a lot like America either.

It does sound like the kind of behavior America has long stood against.

Now I have no love for those who have done us wrong, but I wish for swift justice, not sadistic suffering.

-spence

[justplugit]

Originally Posted by spence

The biggest gift we could give to terrorists is to cast aside our core values in response to their threat. This, more than anything, proves to the Islamic world that our system is just as flawed as the European and Socialist systems and dictatorships that bin Laden argues have failed muslims around the world.

-spence

Like we sould care less what they think about our
core values, and i don't think they care either.

Does bin Laden argue we have failed the Muslim people or their relegion?

1993-WTC bombing- Yousef, Al Qaeda trained ,6 innocents killed over 1000 wounded. 17 kindergatners trapped 5 hours in an elevator.

2000- USS Cole 17 killed 40 injured. Al Queda took credit.

2001-9/11 3000 innocents killed over 6000 injured.

These were all pre-meditated attacks by ununiformed combatents by Al Queda.

While I'm against outright torture, to use the Geneva, name, rank and serial #
rules for un ununiformed combatents is ludicrous.

Like i should care what these killers think of our core values.

[spence]

Originally Posted by justplugit

Personaly i could care less what they think about our core values, and i don't think they care either.

Ok, then what do you think about our core values? If you agree that torture is wrong, but we have tortured doesn't that bother you? Nobody is asking for a Hogan's Heros style of detainment. I think most rational folks understand the difference, and it's not black and white.

The primary reason al Qaeda seems to get so much support among moderates is because the arguement that the West is against Islam has been reinforced by our actions. Why else would we compramise the rule of law, something that we've held high for 200+ years?

-spence

[Cpt. Crunch]

what next? torturing murder and rape suspects?

[Swimmer]

Originally Posted by spence

they still have rules and must operate within appliable laws, as messy as the business of war is. To kill someone whom you believe to be unarmed for instance, just to make it easier, is ethically wrong IMHO and a very slippery slope.

-spence

The laws of war, those four words are probably the largest oxymoron of all time.

I am not finding fault with what you said Spence, and I did cut up your post somewhat. The only law in any war from my point of view is that american soldiers come home whole and unharmed. Sorry, but even unarmed civilians could be lookouts. If that civilian is going to give away a plan or position of troops, go, be with allah, Mr. Civilian. That being said, you can't kill everyone you see, while at war.

[justplugit]

Originally Posted by spence

Ok, then what do you think about our core values? If you agree that torture is wrong, but we have tortured doesn't that bother you?

-spence

I think our core value of not inflicting excuciating pain to our combatant prisoners is good. Having said that, stress standing positions, exposing prisoners to cold or 100deg heat and sleep deprevation is not ,imo excruciating pain.
Our own Seals and Special Forces go through that as part of their training.
Personally i'm against waterboarding as i couldn't do that to someone myself.
Bring on the truth serum, long hours of interrigation, and sleep deprivation.

We need a new policy for ununiformed terrorists, whoops sorry-"man-caused disasters", somewhere between the Geneva Rules for uniformed comdbatents and those ununiformed who use terrorist tatctics to kill innocent citizens.

Btw, ya didn't answer my question - Does bin Laden argue we have failed the Muslim people or their relegion?

[spence]

Originally Posted by justplugit

I think our core value of not inflicting excuciating pain to our combatant prisoners is good. Having said that, stress standing positions, exposing prisoners to cold or 100deg heat and sleep deprevation is not ,imo excruciating pain.
Our own Seals and Special Forces go through that as part of their training.

From what I've seen on special forces interrogation training makes it appear to be very intense and realistic, and I'd even bet that many people forget they are being trained.

But even that being said, it's not the same thing. Oh and I might add that our troops have volunteered for the training!

We need a new policy for ununiformed terrorists, whoops sorry-"man-caused disasters", somewhere between the Geneva Rules for uniformed comdbatents and those ununiformed who use terrorist tatctics to kill innocent citizens.

Terrorists are still terrorists, you're reading the talking points wrong

But I'd agree and it's something I argued Bush should have done once we were in Afghanistan. If other countries didn't agree at least you made the effort and can claim more freedom to do what you think is right. Instead, Bush simply claimed that rules no longer applied to the USA while he demanded every other country followed the letter of the law.

Btw, ya didn't answer my question - Does bin Laden argue we have failed the Muslim people or their relegion?

Bin Laden is a master manipulator so I wouldn't put it past him to have argued just about every aspect of this issue. But generally speaking, his ilk say that the current and past systems have failed the people. Some certainly will argue that the systems are not compatible with the religion.

But it's important to note here that not all militant Muslims take to violence for the same reasons. Most of it traditionally has been political in nature. Religious violence is newer and is exacerbated by the political violence. Most importantly though is that it's not a unified threat against the West as portrayed by Bush, who has lumped Iran, al Qaeda and Hamas into the same bucket and pretended there's a one size fits all solution. In reality there are multiple facets to the overall threat and groups derive motivation from many, if not often local, inputs.

In the end we should stay true to our values, carry a big stick and see problems for what they really are. I think the American people are smart enough to comprehend a little nuance.

-spence

[keeperreaper]

Originally Posted by MarshCappa

3 square meals a day, healthcare, religious time, etc. JOKE! No matress, pee in cup or on the floor, if you get sick then you die, no lights, etc. These guys should have nothing and should live as long and painfully as possible. Too many good people died because of these radicals. They need to pay.

Amen Brother Amen!

[justplugit]

Originally Posted by spence

[B]Oh and I might add that our troops have volunteered for the training![/B

-spence

__________________________________________________ __________

AND MAY I ADD THAT THE TERRORISTS,OR PC "MAN-MADE DISASTERS", VOLUNTEER FOR TRAINING TO KILL INNOCENT PEOPLE !

You prolly went through as much excruciating pain as a memeber of your college varsity karate team.

I don't use "talking points", wouldn't know where to find them even if i wanted too.
Just use what i see, hear, read and when sorted out, what my common sense tells me.

Your answer to the question is interesting.

[spence]

Originally Posted by justplugit

AND MAY I ADD THAT THE TERRORISTS,OR PC "MAN-MADE DISASTERS", VOLUNTEER FOR TRAINING TO KILL INNOCENT PEOPLE !

I think you're missing the point.

We're using these interrogation techniques on prisoners whom we simply believe might have information. You're presuming they're guilty or that everyone we've captured is a terrorist. This just isn't the case. There are credible examples of people being detained, shipped to rendition centers, tortured and then dropped on the street because they were found to have no informational value.

There is difference between someone who becomes a Jihadist because they think Islam is under attack, someone who shoots at Americans because we're driving down their street, and someone who's plotting to proactively kill Americans or attack our interests.

You prolly went through as much excruciating pain as a memeber of your college varsity karate team.

That's um, a different kind of pain

I don't use "talking points", wouldn't know where to find them even if i wanted too.
Just use what i see, hear, read and when sorted out, what my common sense tells me.

It was a joke.

Your answer to the question is interesting.

How so?

Rereading my post I'd not that when I say religious violence being newer, I'm speaking in the context of modern Jihad this century rather than historic Jihad's since the Crusades. To some (like Bin Laden) they are the same, but in practical terms they can be thought of quite differently.

-spence

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by spence

I think the American people are smart enough to comprehend a little nuance.

-spence

Spence, there's a lot that we see eye-to-eye on. However, I don't think you could be more inaccurate with that statement.

In general, the American people are idiots. People in this country lack any sense of foresight or critical thinking skills. There is very much a mentality of "the news said it, so it must be true."

People splinter into their cliques, watch one station for news, don't research issues further and then complain about what's happening right this minute. There is no sense of yesterday or tomorrow, only this minute.

Unfortunately, those of us that occupy this forum are not an accurate representation of the American public in whole. The people that post in here (well most, there are some here that *are* representative of the ignorant American public) are intelligent people, capable of forming their own opinions. While some of what's posted here may sometimes be regurgitation of what was read on the internet or heard on the morning talk-radio show, there is almost always critical thinking behind it.