Burning the Koran

[JohnR]

Yeh, within the letter of the law he might be legal, hence the current predicament. Funny (not really) how the Taliban can murder young girls going to school and state religous views support such unconscionable acts yet burn a book ??

Religion of peace my arse. I would like to see / hear / read more serious denunciation of the acts of Al Quaeda by prominent Islamic leaders but we don't really get that now do we.

Still, the stupidity of this burning is enormous. And it will cost lives. And it is wholly unnecessary and stupid.

I do, however, reserve the right to draw Mohammed.














:raiders:

[buckman]

Originally Posted by likwid

Put on your glasses.
Its the group smaller than "other".

Damn, such a fuss over such a small piece of the pie.

[RIJIMMY]

the saddest part of all of this to me is that the "main" reason most feel its a bad idea is because we "fear" that muslims will retaliate and somehow hurt innocent people or our troops. That stands against everything I believe. You may think this pastor is a wacko - but the REAL reason Americans have fought and died is for freedom and our constitutional rights. Americans should not fear retaliation for individual actions they perform under the law. IMHO - fear is all the terrorists have, and if we give into it, they win.
They won with the Dutch newspaper, they won in Spain (train bombing/Iraq pullout).

Ask yourself, do you truly beleive in this - ""I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it,"

Isnt that what makes our country great?

[RIJIMMY]

oh boy - just read CNN and looks like once again the Big O let me down.

I love this -
Pakistani President Asif Ali Zardari said anyone who thought of such a despicable act must be suffering from a diseased mind and a sickly soul, said spokesman Farhatullah Babar.

Zardari said it will inflame sentiments among Muslims throughout the world and cause irreparable damage to interfaith harmony and world peace.

All because someone burned a book? So spence - tell me how I dont understand muslims? Based on the above, they are superstitious, uncivilized religious wackos. Sorry, they only lose respect from me the more I learn. Im going to have a cheesburger at lunch, I really hope it doesnt disturb world peace when I insult the hindus!

[buckman]

Hell even South Park caved in like pussies.

[spence]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

All because someone burned a book? So spence - tell me how I dont understand muslims? Based on the above, they are superstitious, uncivilized religious wackos. Sorry, they only lose respect from me the more I learn. Im going to have a cheesburger at lunch, I really hope it doesnt disturb world peace when I insult the hindus!

I thinking you're making a gross generalization.

There are a lot of Muslims in the US and other parts of the World that while disgusted aren't going to pick up arms over this.

The issue is, and has always been, the areas where mainstream meets the fringe that feed extremism. Often this is in poor areas, although that doesn't mean the interests of the impoverished are limited just to the poor. There's certainly is a lot of mistrust of the West in many Islamic nations, which from a certain perspective on many issues is understandable.

Actions that reinforce this mistrust will almost certainly be used to stoke the flames by the fringe to embolden their position. Even many moderates will be let down by the perceived affront. Hence my comment earlier about the Chinese Finger Trap.

Does this mean we should be held captive by political correctness?

Absolutely not, but it also means we shouldn't loose sight of common sense either. A "stunt" such as this has no real value but has the potential to cause real harm. It's a shame that the story was ever covered in the first place. Let the bigots bask in their hate and it would have all passed over.

But the genie is out of the lamp and it must be addressed.

-spence

[RIJIMMY]

we have thriving US Nazi groups - Is Israel chanting death to america?
We eat beef - are Hindus rioting in protest?
We have satanic churches - Is the Vatican threatening retaliation?

We are only worried about offending one religious group. Why? They blow themselves up and they behead people. Thats nuts.

[spence]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

We are only worried about offending one religious group. Why? They blow themselves up and they behead people. Thats nuts.

Because we're at war in two Islamic nations, Islamic nations are in proximity to many of the World's hot spots, Islamic nations hold much of the Global energy reserves and Islamic nations suffer from a lot of poverty and political oppression.

Geopolitcs have evolved for this to be the case, and we're a big player in the production.

This isn't rocket science.

-spence

[RIJIMMY]

Originally Posted by spence

I thinking you're making a gross generalization.

There are a lot of Muslims in the US and other parts of the World that while disgusted aren't going to pick up arms over this.

The issue is, and has always been, the areas where mainstream meets the fringe that feed extremism. Often this is in poor areas, although that doesn't mean the interests of the impoverished are limited just to the poor. There's certainly is a lot of mistrust of the West in many Islamic nations, which from a certain perspective on many issues is understandable.

Actions that reinforce this mistrust will almost certainly be used to stoke the flames by the fringe to embolden their position. Even many moderates will be let down by the perceived affront. Hence my comment earlier about the Chinese Finger Trap.

Does this mean we should be held captive by political correctness?

Absolutely not, but it also means we shouldn't loose sight of common sense either. A "stunt" such as this has no real value but has the potential to cause real harm. It's a shame that the story was ever covered in the first place. Let the bigots bask in their hate and it would have all passed over.

But the genie is out of the lamp and it must be addressed.

-spence

you're wrong ( again)

- "You could have serious violence in places like Pakistan or Afghanistan" as a result of the proposal by the Gainesville, Florida-based Dove World Outreach Center, Obama said on ABC's "Good Morning America."

- The diplomat warned that if Florida Pastor Terry Jones goes ahead with his plans to burn copies of the Quran, it will set off a massive reaction in parts of the Muslim world.


- Hundreds of angry Afghans burned an American flag and chanted "Death to the Christians" on Thursday to protest plans by a small American church to torch copies of the Muslim holy book on the anniversary of the Sept. 11 terror attacks.

- "If Quran is burned it would be beginning of destruction of America," read one English-language banner held up by the protesters, who chanted "Down with America!"

- Iran's Foreign Minister Manouchehr Mottaki also warned of repercussions, saying the burning would "face reactions by the world's Muslims as well as followers of other religions," according to the official IRNA news agency.


gross generalization Spence?

[Nebe]

One would think that when we say we are right and they are wrong, that by buring a bunch of copies of the koran, we are lowering ourselves right down to their level..

The guy who is doing this is what i would think we can safely call a religious extremist.

[likwid]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

we have thriving US Nazi groups - Is Israel chanting death to america?

Only because we provide billions to them in funding do they not.

We eat beef - are Hindus rioting in protest?

They're too busy minding their own business. You know, what we should have been doing all along...

We have satanic churches - Is the Vatican threatening retaliation?

The Vatican really doesn't care about other religions. They're only concerned with their own and their kiddie touchers.

[The Dad Fisherman]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

the saddest part of all of this to me is that the "main" reason most feel its a bad idea is because we "fear" that muslims will retaliate and somehow hurt innocent people or our troops. That stands against everything I believe. You may think this pastor is a wacko - but the REAL reason Americans have fought and died is for freedom and our constitutional rights. Americans should not fear retaliation for individual actions they perform under the law. IMHO - fear is all the terrorists have, and if we give into it, they win.
They won with the Dutch newspaper, they won in Spain (train bombing/Iraq pullout).

Ask yourself, do you truly beleive in this - ""I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it,"

Isnt that what makes our country great?

I can agree with this....but on the flip side if some Muslim Whacko puts a bullet in his head after he does this...I'm really not going to shed any tears for this guy............and his family (well, maybe his kids).

I always tell my kids that they have choices...some good, some bad. With every choice you make comes an action, make good choices and the action usually is a good one. Make bad choices and its probably going to be a bad action....but its your choice.....make it and be willing to deal w/ what comes afterwards.

This guy is choosing to burn the Quran...have a ball. But if you get terrorized, beaten or Killed because of YOUR choice....don't come whining to me about it.

People get beaten and/or killed here in the USA every day for antagonizing the wrong person(s) for stupid reasons....

here's a match buddy......knock your self out.

[RIJIMMY]

[QUOTE=.

This guy is choosing to burn the Quran...have a ball. But if you get terrorized, beaten or Killed because of YOUR choice....don't come whining to me about it.

.[/QUOTE]

arent we sworn as a nation to protect him and uphold the constitution?
Some people choose to vote.
Some people choose to pray.
Some people choose to write inflamatory articles.
Some people choose to protest.
All protected.
this guy has a guaranteed right by the constiution and the president is sworn to uphold it.
this is tough stuff, but I think this is why he is doing it. Who do we as a country stand with, him for exercising his right or for foreign nations and/or extremists? I think the answer is a tough one, but I dont feel there is any room for debate.

[The Dad Fisherman]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

arent we sworn as a nation to protect him and uphold the constitution?

Yep, we are......

Now if a guy waltz's into Harlem and starts screaming the "N" word.....and he gets his ass kicked. Does he have the same right to be protected under the constitution....sure he does.....did he get what he deserved for being a friggin moron.......sure he did.

When do we start screaming about all the tax dollars being spent on protecting people who are doing stupid things......ya know....all this protection does cost money.

[RIJIMMY]

Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman

Yep, we are......

Now if a guy waltz's into Harlem and starts screaming the "N" word.....and he gets his ass kicked. Does he have the same right to be protected under the constitution....sure he does.....did he get what he deserved for being a friggin moron.......sure he did.

When do we start screaming about all the tax dollars being spent on protecting people who are doing stupid things......ya know....all this protection does cost money.

I agree, in the koran case, Im looking at it in a different light since its international pressure and potential international threats. If american muslims beat the crap out of him, they'd be wrong but I would feel better about it.

[RIJIMMY]

read this -

Press review: Who will stop 'crazy' Quran-burning priest? - CNN.com

You have to laugh. Spence/Likwid and others here is the "problem" in black and white. Muslim press/nations equating the killings, suicide bombings, and other terrorist acts with a guy burning a book. There saying he is an extremist and just as bad as their extremists.

[The Dad Fisherman]

I would classify him more as a Reality TV Star than an Extremist......just looking for his 15 minutes.

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

Ask yourself, do you truly beleive in this - ""I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it,"

Isnt that what makes our country great?

I posted that quote last week and had just come into this thread to post it again.

His actions are protected by the Constitution, plain and simple.

If people want to start squashing people's protected rights because the actions are offensive, let's start with those di%&#eads from the Westboro Baptist Church.

[spence]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

you're wrong ( again)

- "You could have serious violence in places like Pakistan or Afghanistan" as a result of the proposal by the Gainesville, Florida-based Dove World Outreach Center, Obama said on ABC's "Good Morning America."

- The diplomat warned that if Florida Pastor Terry Jones goes ahead with his plans to burn copies of the Quran, it will set off a massive reaction in parts of the Muslim world.


- Hundreds of angry Afghans burned an American flag and chanted "Death to the Christians" on Thursday to protest plans by a small American church to torch copies of the Muslim holy book on the anniversary of the Sept. 11 terror attacks.

- "If Quran is burned it would be beginning of destruction of America," read one English-language banner held up by the protesters, who chanted "Down with America!"

- Iran's Foreign Minister Manouchehr Mottaki also warned of repercussions, saying the burning would "face reactions by the world's Muslims as well as followers of other religions," according to the official IRNA news agency.


gross generalization Spence?

Yes, gross generalizations.

You're talking about small groups of people, you're talking about signs in "English" intended for Western media consumption, and you're talking about an Iranian government employee who's going to stirr the pot as only Iranians can.

Certainly some will use the event for violence, but most likely this would be driven by those intending violence regardless...like the Taliban fighting US Troops.

We'd see demonstrations (hell, we already are) but again these are usually orchestrated and often contrived. Do the people feel passionate about it? Sure, but again, there's already resentment towards the West that this feeds into.

Think of them like a Glenn Beck rally.

-spence

[spence]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

read this -

Press review: Who will stop 'crazy' Quran-burning priest? - CNN.com

You have to laugh. Spence/Likwid and others here is the "problem" in black and white. Muslim press/nations equating the killings, suicide bombings, and other terrorist acts with a guy burning a book. There saying he is an extremist and just as bad as their extremists.

Remember, they're also pandering to their audience just like our media does.

-spence

[fishbones]

Originally Posted by spence

Remember, they're also pandering to their audience just like our media does.

-spence

Hey Spence. Are you gonna fish at all this fall? You owe me a plug and I was hoping to get it from you in person. Put down the bottles and binky's and grab your gear. I'll get RIJimmy to come too. If the fishing is bad, you can at least try hitting on him again.

[scottw]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

I agree, in the koran case, Im looking at it in a different light since its international pressure and potential international threats. If american muslims beat the crap out of him, they'd be wrong but I would feel better about it.

huh?...you know, if someone that opposed the GZ Mosque were to suggest that while wrong, someone "beating the crap out of" Rauf in retaliation after the completion of the thing would make them "feel better about it"...I'd find that pretty offensive....I guess it ok to beat the crap out of someone if it has international consequences or if they're "being a friggin moron"?...why not just lop off the koran burning guys head?....if beating the crap out of him, while wrong, would make you feel better...watching his head roll around on the ground might give you a little chubby...

[spence]

Originally Posted by fishbones

Hey Spence. Are you gonna fish at all this fall? You owe me a plug and I was hoping to get it from you in person. Put down the bottles and binky's and grab your gear. I'll get RIJimmy to come too. If the fishing is bad, you can at least try hitting on him again.

Already plotting, I agree a joint trip should be in order...land or sea.

-spence

[RIJIMMY]

Originally Posted by scottw

huh?...you know, if someone that opposed the GZ Mosque were to suggest that while wrong, someone "beating the crap out of" Rauf in retaliation after the completion of the thing would make them "feel better about it"...I'd find that pretty offensive....I guess it ok to beat the crap out of someone if it has international consequences or if they're "being a friggin moron"?...why not just lop off the koran burning guys head?....if beating the crap out of him, while wrong, would make you feel better...watching his head roll around on the ground might give you a little chubby...

no, no, no, no, no - you're taking my reply out of context. See Dad F's reply to me on N word in Harlem
I take a stong stance on protecting this pastor as an american, against threats from outside the country. I dont care what other countries think about us and we should defend out rights, wacky or not. Its our constitutional obligation.
But as Dad F points out, I go to a Pats game and yell " Brady sucks a$$" and get my head beat in, thats different.

[buckman]

Breaking News.... Imam agrees to move mosque and Pastor calls off book burning.

[spence]

Originally Posted by buckman

Breaking News.... Imam agrees to move mosque and Pastor calls off book burning.

Buck, not breaking news...multiple news sources already reporting the Iman says it's all BS.

My guess is the FL pastor is playing games to try and come out ahead. And to think all this grandstanding is just adding fuel to the fire...

Buck, your buddy sure is a real low life.

-spence

[buckman]

Originally Posted by spence

Buck, not breaking news...multiple news sources already reporting the Iman says it's all BS.

My guess is the FL pastor is playing games to try and come out ahead. And to think all this grandstanding is just adding fuel to the fire...

Buck, your buddy sure is a real low life.

-spence

I know it's BS Spence. CNN, my go to news network, had it as "Breaking News".
Besides....Never trust an Imam

Which buddy? I have so many low life friends your going to have to name names.

[scottw]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

no, no, no, no, no - you're taking my reply out of context. See Dad F's reply to me on N word in Harlem
I take a stong stance on protecting this pastor as an american, against threats from outside the country. I dont care what other countries think about us and we should defend out rights, wacky or not. Its our constitutional obligation.
But as Dad F points out, I go to a Pats game and yell " Brady sucks a$$" and get my head beat in, thats different.

oh, right ....I see....

if you say the N word in Harlem and get beaten or yell "Brady sucks" at a Pats game and you get your head beat in or "a guy is choosing to burn the Quran...have a ball. But if you get terrorized, beaten or Killed because of YOUR choice....don't come whining to me about it."
because what ?...you probably deserved it ???

you guys were pretty clear....sounds like violence in the face of what?...the wrong words or non-violent action..is acceptable? expected? deserved?

wow?

seems to me this insignificant nut in Florida proved that he could ignite the religeon of peace... world wide... simply by stating that he'd burn something printed on paper in his little corner of nowhere....doesn't say much for the muslim world now does it?

[spence]

Originally Posted by scottw

seems to me this insignificant nut in Florida proved that he could ignite the religeon of peace... world wide... simply by stating that he'd burn something printed on paper in his little corner of nowhere....doesn't say much for the muslim world now does it?

Good point, one might question if a lot of this is really about religion after all.

-spence

[scottw]

if you want to read about stuff burning and have a little time on your hands....Google "muslim unrest" or "muslim riots" and then the country of your choice....France, England, China, Australia, Spain, Netherlands...any of the middle east or african countries...on and on....try the same with any other religeon...just for comparison
Sweden...Cambodia, Phillipines, Indonesia, Greece........Germany, Ireland...Russia, Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan