Liberals here want to blame conservatives for Ariz shooting?

[Jim in CT]

When I heard about the rampage, the first thing I did was say a prayer for the families. The second thing I did was wonder how long it would take the liberals to seize upon an opportunity to blame this on conservatives.

Turns out, it didn't take long.

Karl F, on another thread, posted that Sarah Palin had a "crosshair" over her on a map of vulnerable Democrats that had seats that were up for grabs this November. Karl, do you really believe that map is a contributing factor in what happened? Do you have any evidence, any whatsoever, to support that? Do you really think that Palin had violence on her mind when she used that graphic? Karl, are you similarly upset when Democrats do things like that? Do you really think that Democrats don't use the same language during campaigns?

Further evidence of why you have to have something wrong with your brain to be a part of the liberal movement. When Obama says "we have to fight in battleground states", that's OK. When Palin says the same thing, she's inciting violence.

I watched the coverage on MSNBC just to hear what they were saying, and they kept talking about "right wing vitriol". Look, I agree 100% that it would do us all good if we dialed it back a bit, and I'm as guilty of that as anyone here. But if you listened to MSNBC, you'd think that only conservatives spew vitriol. This is a network that only refers to the tea party as "tea baggers", yet they claim that only conservatives participate in this kind of behavior. And no one on the left, NO ONE, suggests that MSNBC is wrong for pretending that only conservatives behave this way. It's unbelievable. MSNBC can do a segment on how mean Foxnews is for spewing hate, and in the very next segment, they call the tea party "a bunch of tea baggers", and no one on the left sees anything wrong with that.

Bury the dead, and let the cops investigate. If the guy was a member of the Tea Party, since when do we hold an entire group responsible for the actions of a single kook? Are liberals suggesting that we hold all blacks accountable for the actions of the worst apples in the barrel? Or are liberals suggesting that only conservative groups are all responsible for everything that each of them do?

You people literally have no shame, and your hypocrisy knows no bounds. I truly hate these people (the ones who would blame this tragedy on those with different political opinions), I really do.

[Nebe]

Welcome to my ignore list.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by Nebe

Welcome to my ignore list.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Took you this long?

Come on now, none of these gems did it for you:
"Liberals here want to blame conservatives for Ariz shooting?"
"Is Pelosi a liar or a lunatic?"
"From who did Obama "inherit" the economic mess?"
"Liberalism - let all the criminals go, it's not their fault"

The line for me was:
His attempt to correlate Indiana Medicaid denying a baby a transplant, which was due largely to the Republican Governor's budget cuts, with the Obama health care proposal at the time. Then to use that correlation to defend Palin's idiot Death Panel comments.

Like I said in that thread after he complained about my comments regarding his absurdity:
"Why bother? Trying to have a discussion with you is futile and merely results in a long pretentious, condescending post from you droning on about how much you hate liberals. Reading about the same 5 talking points has grown exceptionally boring."

I'm sure the words "typical liberal" or "an expected liberal's reply" will pop up somewhere in his replies here.

[scottw]

guess it's getting tougher and tough to look in the mirror...hey JD...maybe he was just being sarcastic ?....

[PaulS]

I thought Jim jumped the shark when he commented on Pelosi's looks. I laughed that an actuary was actually talking about someone else's looks. It was the one of the funniest thing I've heard on here. The SOA meetings have more ungroomed people than any event I've ever been to.

[scottw]

I'm beginning to see Jim's point, some are quite quick to nitpick and even condemn what others say while taking little ownership of what they say, clearly not remembering what they've said and having little recognition of it's impact and even parroting some of the most incendiary rhetoric....

do as I say, not as I do..... lest I will insult you and then "ignore" you....

hey Jim...if they say it , it's "sarcasm"...if you say it...it's "hate speech"...see how it works?

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Nebe

Welcome to my ignore list.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Eben, if you could have taken the time to point out why my opinion on this is without merit, that would have been better. I sincerely enjoy engaging with thoughtful folks who disagree with me...I relish that, because that's how you learn.

I did see your post on the other thread where you said, sarcastically, that you were "shocked" that the shooter was a member of the Tea Party. In my opinion, that was an unreasonable thing for you to say, and here's why...there is no evidence, none whatsoever, that the Tea Party supports the use of violence towards those with whom they disagree.

But you took the easy way out and insulted me, without supporting why you think my position is invalid. That says more about you than it does about me.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

Took you this long?

Come on now, none of these gems did it for you:
"Liberals here want to blame conservatives for Ariz shooting?"
"Is Pelosi a liar or a lunatic?"
"From who did Obama "inherit" the economic mess?"
"Liberalism - let all the criminals go, it's not their fault"

The line for me was:
His attempt to correlate Indiana Medicaid denying a baby a transplant, which was due largely to the Republican Governor's budget cuts, with the Obama health care proposal at the time. Then to use that correlation to defend Palin's idiot Death Panel comments.

Like I said in that thread after he complained about my comments regarding his absurdity:
"Why bother? Trying to have a discussion with you is futile and merely results in a long pretentious, condescending post from you droning on about how much you hate liberals. Reading about the same 5 talking points has grown exceptionally boring."

I'm sure the words "typical liberal" or "an expected liberal's reply" will pop up somewhere in his replies here.

Hey Johnny D...if you're going to trash me, is it too much to ask that you trash me for things I actually said? I don't remember correlating the Indiand Medicaid and Palin's death panel comments.

So Johnny, if you think my question about Pelosi had no merit, can I assume that you do not think she was lying when she said that defecit reduction has been the mantra of Democrats? You think that was a truthful statement?

What's wrong with asking from whom did Obama inherit the economic mess? If Obama keeps saying again and again that he inherited this mess, what's wrong with asking from whom?

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by PaulS

I thought Jim jumped the shark when he commented on Pelosi's looks. I laughed that an actuary was actually talking about someone else's looks. It was the one of the funniest thing I've heard on here. The SOA meetings have more ungroomed people than any event I've ever been to.

When did I do that?

It must be nice to debate others when you allow yourself to put words in the mouth of the other person that are made up.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by scottw

hey Jim...if they say it , it's "sarcasm"...if you say it...it's "hate speech"...see how it works?

Yes, that's precisely how it works, and they genuinely don't see anything wrong with it. Hence the mental disorder thing...

For God's sake, the investigating sheriff in Arizona (who you will be shocked to learn is a Democrat) said on Foxnews Sunday that right-wing hate speech incites this kind of violence. Of course, when the host asked him what evidence there was that this kook was inspired by right-wing propoganda, the guy said it's just his opinion.

I remember during the town hall meetings on healthcare, the labor unions sent goons to make sure that folks didn't get the chance to speak against Obamacare. I didn't see the lefties protesting that.

We all saw footage of the black panthers in Philadelphia standing outside voting booths in military clothes and holding clubs. The Democrats had nothing to say about that.

Allen Grayson (former Democratic congressman from Florida) caled his opponent "Taliban Dan", and only Foxnews spoke against it.

MSNBC claims that Foxnews condones "hate speech", and then calls millions of Americans "tea baggers". No one on the left sees any hypocrisy there. Fortunately, only 14 or 15 people watch it.

Yet when Sarah Palin uses the common political expression "battleground states", the left starts shrieking about hate speech designed to incite violence.

[JohnR]

Originally Posted by PaulS

The SOA meetings have more ungroomed people than any event I've ever been to.

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

When did I do that?

Different Jim I think.


While I have been repeatedly accused of being right wing on here, I really don't align myself with a wing. I watch the vitriol spittled from both sides and have for the last twenty years while I politically sway left or right abouts the center. I have seen many on the left turn into viscous fools, all the kooks are on the right, just as much as right shouts of the kooks on the left.

Are we really any better of this? Why are we so freikin' divided? We just mire ourselves down so deep and bring us all down.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by JohnR

Different Jim I think.


While I have been repeatedly accused of being right wing on here, I really don't align myself with a wing. I watch the vitriol spittled from both sides and have for the last twenty years while I politically sway left or right abouts the center. I have seen many on the left turn into viscous fools, all the kooks are on the right, just as much as right shouts of the kooks on the left.

Are we really any better of this? Why are we so freikin' divided? We just mire ourselves down so deep and bring us all down.

That's a great question John. We are more polarized in our differences than we were 20 years ago, and I am honest enough to include myself in that "we", I'm as guilty as anyone (although I like to think I list my reasons when I slam someone).

I cannot imagine how it gets any better. I'm part of the conservative movement that believes that small government, low taxes, fiscal responsibility, individual liberty, strong national defense, right to life, and personal responsibility are the correct ingredients for a better future for our kids. I believe those things to my core, and I see not a shred of credible evidence to the contrary.

People on the left believe differently (in some cases the exact opposite), and just as strongly. How do you bring people together who are so diametrically opposed? I haven't a clue. Part of the problem, I think, is that with the threats of Al Queda and the dire financial situation that local/state/federal gov't is in, more people feel like we're at the edge of a precipace, so our differences really come to the forefront, because we rightly feel a sense of urgency.

For the record, I am a "Casulty" actuary, not a life/health actuary (which is what the SOA governs). We are more handsome as a group, although lamentably, not in my case.

[PaulS]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

When did I do that?

It must be nice to debate others when you allow yourself to put words in the mouth of the other person that are made up.

If you didn't say that, then I'll apologize. When I see insults in the first post, I usually just ignore the thread.

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

there is no evidence, none whatsoever, that the Tea Party supports the use of violence towards those with whom they disagree.

Have you been to a Tea Party event? I attended one last year (kind of by accident initially) because I agree with a lot of the principles that the Tea Party was initially founded on. However, the hours I spent there and many of the people I met provided a direct contradiction to your above statement. There was a ton of hate spewed, not by those on the stage, but by many people in the crowd.

The public perception of political groups (well, just about all groups) are defined by the loudest and most extreme in their ranks.

• Democrats are defined by far-left social liberals
• Republicans are defined by far-right religious conservatives
• Pro-choice means you want to slaughter babies
• Pro-life means you'll blow up Planned Parenthood locations
• Being a fisherman means you'll kill anything and everything that comes by
• Being vegetarian means you hug trees
• Don't like Unions? You must hate the little guy
• Part of a Union? "Is it time for you to take a break yet?"

The same has happened to the Tea Party. The group that initially stood for decreased government and fiscal responsibility are now defined by these people:

because they are the loudest and most extreme of the bunch.


You are probably the most guilty one here for assumptions and then extreme accusations. For instance:

So Johnny, if you think my question about Pelosi had no merit, can I assume that you do not think she was lying when she said that defecit reduction has been the mantra of Democrats? You think that was a truthful statement?

We all know what happens when you assume... and for the record, Pelosi is high up there on my "Politicians You're Most Disgusted By" list.

Hey Johnny D...if you're going to trash me, is it too much to ask that you trash me for things I actually said?

You should take your own advice. Especially since, putting words in someone else's mouth (or twisting them until they are far removed from the original meaning) and then providing two paragraphs on how your fabrications of what they said is wrong, doesn't count as "trashing me for things I actually said".

Since you don't remember relating Indiana Medicaid denying a baby a transplant and using that to defend Palin:
http://www.striped-bass.com/Stripert...th-panels.html

[scottw]

that sign is clearly photoshopped...good grief?

I was there...there was no hate spewed till JD showed up and started insulting everyone for being inbred rednecks....

[Jim in CT]

Johnny D..

"The public perception of political groups (well, just about all groups) are defined by the loudest and most extreme in their ranks."

If the "public", and you, wants to define an entire group by the actions of its most extreme members, that's their (and your) problem, and it's stupid. Rational, thoughtful people (and I am arrogant enough to include myself in that group) do not do that.

I have been to many tea party events. Never heard any support of violence. Are there extremists? Yes. Do they speak for everyone? Nope.

"Pro-life means you'll blow up Planned Parenthood locations "

Anyone who think sthat is an idiot, they just are. I'm pro-life, which necessarily means that I condemn the acts of anyone who would bomb planned parenthood. I have seen the lefty media try to lump all of us in with the tiny handful of folks who have killed abortionists, and it's stupid and dishonest.

Johnny, you said you didn't like my question about whether or not Pelosi was a liar or a lunatic, yet you also won't admit that you think she was telling the truth. It's kind of hard to figure out what you're saying, other than you keep telling me I'm wrong...

on the death panels thread...Palin was villified for referring to death panels...then in this case, the gov't denies life-saving treatment to a kid. You say the kid died because of Republican cuts? That may well be true, I never said otherwise. Either way, the gov't made a decision not to help this kid, which to me is equivalent to a death panel. See, you assume that if you show that it was a Republican that caused this kid's death, you are proving me wrong. Unfortunately for you, that's not the case. I'm opposed to the govt making those decisions, regardless of the political party affiliation of the politician in question. Party has nothing to do with it. I want doctors and families making those decisions, not the government. Am I going too fast for you?

[scottw]

one of the amusing components of hypocricy is that the hypocrit, who will point to their own informed intelligence, intellectual balance and perspective ....seldom shows the intelligence, intellectual balance and perspective to recognize their own glaring hypocricy.....

[The Dad Fisherman]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

How do you bring people together who are so diametrically opposed?

We could start by removing terms like Moonbat, Wingnut, Obamorons, Nazi, Tea-Baggers, and other derogatory names from the conversation.

Pretty sure that name calling doesn't lead to the free expression of ideas and open dialogue between people.

[RIROCKHOUND]

Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman

We could start by removing terms like Moonbat, Wingnut, Obamorons, Nazi, Tea-Baggers, and other derogatory names from the conversation.

Pretty sure that name calling doesn't lead to the free expression of ideas and open dialogue between people.

Line of the week for me:

A colleauge from the right of Congressman Gibbons:
"You can disagree without disagreeable, and thats what Gabby was"

This discussion is pretty interesting. Of course it is from MSNBC, so some will discount it automatically.

Morning Joe

Around 10min, Barnicle had a decent take on it.

[scottw]

Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman

We could start by removing terms like Moonbat, Wingnut, Obamorons, Nazi, Tea-Baggers, and other derogatory names from the conversation.

Pretty sure that name calling doesn't lead to the free expression of ideas and open dialogue between people.

so you want to ban certain terms that you don't like in order to foster free expression?....OK...set up the parameters...what is acceptable and what is not?

need to ban "insinuations" of such as well because there is a lot of that going on and it is equally distasteful and somewhat gutless....if you tend to freak out over things like words

we should start a list.....

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

Johnny D..

"The public perception of political groups (well, just about all groups) are defined by the loudest and most extreme in their ranks."

If the "public", and you, wants to define an entire group by the actions of its most extreme members, that's their (and your) problem, and it's stupid. Rational, thoughtful people (and I am arrogant enough to include myself in that group) do not do that. I have been to many tea party events. Never heard any support of violence. Are there extremists? Yes. Do they speak for everyone? Nope.

Oh really? Just like how everyone that doesn't agree exactly with your political ideology is a liberal moron with a mental disease.

"Pro-life means you'll blow up Planned Parenthood locations "

Anyone who think sthat is an idiot, they just are. I'm pro-life, which necessarily means that I condemn the acts of anyone who would bomb planned parenthood. I have seen the lefty media try to lump all of us in with the tiny handful of folks who have killed abortionists, and it's stupid and dishonest.

And I have seen the righty pro-lifers argue that all life is sacred while also supporting capital punishment. It's hypocritical.

Johnny, you said you didn't like my question about whether or not Pelosi was a liar or a lunatic, yet you also won't admit that you think she was telling the truth. It's kind of hard to figure out what you're saying, other than you keep telling me I'm wrong...

I disagree with just about everything Pelosi says and it continues to amaze me why she gets elected to party leadership positions. The reason your thread about Pelosi was on the list I made above (and also why after today I'll be going back to ignoring your posts) is that 75% of your posts are rants filled with insults, negativity and sensationalist talking points with the purposes of drumming up more hate and trying to piss off the people who don't perfectly align with your ideologies. Then, mix in your common pretentious tone while calling those who don't agree with you idiots.

on the death panels thread...Palin was villified for referring to death panels...then in this case, the gov't denies life-saving treatment to a kid. You say the kid died because of Republican cuts? That may well be true, I never said otherwise. Either way, the gov't made a decision not to help this kid, which to me is equivalent to a death panel. See, you assume that if you show that it was a Republican that caused this kid's death, you are proving me wrong. Unfortunately for you, that's not the case. I'm opposed to the govt making those decisions, regardless of the political party affiliation of the politician in question. Party has nothing to do with it. I want doctors and families making those decisions, not the government. Am I going too fast for you?

There's that arrogant prickishness again. If you're opposed to the government making those decisions, then you should start speaking out against Medicaid and Medicare. Unfortunately, if you can't afford your own health care, you won't be able to get the same care as someone that does pay for their own health insurance.

I guess this causes a bit of a predicament... do we remove all government sponsored health care(medicare and medicaid) so that politicians aren't making these decisions, or redistribute wealth so that everyone can get all the health care they need regardless of the costs to the taxpayer?

[scottw]

lots to ban in that post

there must be a program that would simply remove any term deemed unacceptable(which could be submitted to a master list at will, by anyone that found the term offensive) from any post submitted...that would probably fix everything....

[scottw]

As Jonathan Rauch wrote brilliantly in Harper's in 1995, "The vocabulary of hate is potentially as rich as your dictionary, and all you do by banning language used by cretins is to let them decide what the rest of us may say." Rauch added, "Trap the racists and anti-Semites, and you lay a trap for me too. Hunt for them with eradication in your mind, and you have brought dissent itself within your sights."


The#^&awesome stupidity of the calls to tamp down political speech in the wake of the Giffords shooting. - By Jack Shafer - Slate Magazine

[The Dad Fisherman]

Originally Posted by scottw

so you want to ban certain terms that you don't like in order to foster free expression?....OK...set up the parameters...what is acceptable and what is not?

need to ban "insinuations" of such as well because there is a lot of that going on and it is equally distasteful and somewhat gutless....if you tend to freak out over things like words

we should start a list.....

I was thinking more along the lines of people actually doing it ON THEIR OWN.....maybe taking the high road and showing a little class in the process.

How does anybody think they can sway somebody to their way of thinking if they continuously insult people......

[Nebe]

No one can sway anyone on these boards. It's a complete waste of energy.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[scottw]

Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman

I was thinking more along the lines of people actually doing it ON THEIR OWN.....maybe taking the high road and showing a little class in the process.

How does anybody think they can sway somebody to their way of thinking if they continuously insult people......

I'm offended by those that refer to"class"...the insinuation is that someone deemed to be without class is a lesser human and probably on a lower rung on the social ladder which is highly offensive particularly to minorities...

oh, and it's sooooo 70's

[Chesapeake Bill]

Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman

I was thinking more along the lines of people actually doing it ON THEIR OWN.....maybe taking the high road and showing a little class in the process.

How does anybody think they can sway somebody to their way of thinking if they continuously insult people......

The basic problem is that you use the term "taking the high road." Unfortunately, many confuse this with taking the moral high ground...thus defending their stance from those who disagree. Getting this group to the table is like negotiating the Panmunjom ceasefire...

The preceding discussion thread about funding pensions has merit (much like the need to convert today's youth from social security to a form of 401K). However, how do we move off center? Do we pick a date, after which the new program is implemented? I say this because the existing groups have contracts that should be kept (lest the tables turn and everyone loses at any point). How to implement and maintain fairness would be a more appreciable diatribe IMHO.

Unfortunately, we have grown accustomed to the CNN "shock and awe" style of discussion.

[The Dad Fisherman]

Originally Posted by scottw

I'm offended by those that refer to"class"...the insinuation is that someone deemed to be without class is a lesser human and probably on a lower rung on the social ladder which is highly offensive particularly to minorities...

oh, and it's sooooo 70's

How about we change it to "Common Decency".......does that work.

[scottw]

Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman

How about we change it to "Common Decency".......does that work.

I'm good with that....


however, I just spent a weekend watching the mainstream media, leftwing pundints, democrat politicians and a few here in a coordinated way trying to affix the blame for the massacre in Arizona to people that they disagree with politically...an all time low in my opinion......I'm all for common decency and fairness but these people are not honest brokers in any discussion, I would never suggest that they be limited in what they say nor would I suggest anyone here be limited or be told to self limit as long as they stay within the constraints that the moderators deem acceptable and appropriate, I find the blatant dishonesty far more despicable than some random colorful name calling.....the names can be amusing...the lies are not...

btw...I will be the first to pledge to self-police my rhetoric/comments with respect to common decency if it will result in a happier SB political nation

[Jim in CT]

Johnny D-

"Just like how everyone that doesn't agree exactly with your political ideology is a liberal moron with a mental disease."

Please try to hold me accountable for what I actually say, not your interpretation of what I say. On many posts here, I have stated my position and said "reasonable people can disagree", so I don't besmirch everyone who doesn't agree with me on every issue. There are certain parts of liberal ideology that I do believe you have to have a screw loose to support (the notion that there's no such thing as too much spending, the notion that murderers have the right to live but not unborn babies, the notion that conservative economics caused the subprime mortgage crisis...)

"And I have seen the righty pro-lifers argue that all life is sacred while also supporting capital punishment. It's hypocritical."

First, I do not support capital punishment. However, there is NOTHING hypocritical about being against abortion and pro death penalty. An unborn baby is, by definition, innocent of any wrongdoing. Osama Bin Laden is not. In my opinion, there is a strong case to be made that killing Bin Laden is not morally equivalent to killing an unborn baby. If you cannot see a difference between an unborn baby and Osama Bin Laden, I cannot discuss anything with you.

What's completely absurd, totally devoid of any logic, is the liberal notion that it's OK to kill unborn babies, but wrong to kill a mass-murderer. That is an unsupportable position, it has no rational thought behind it. In any event, how many executions take place in this country? One a week? We slaughter 4,000 babies a day. Just to give you some perspective.

"75% of your posts are rants "

I support almost everything I say, with the logic behind my conclusions.

"filled with insults, negativity "

I plea guilty to that one...I have no more patience for folks, for example, who want to blame conservative ideology for what happened in Arizona. Anyone who would suggest that, deserves to be insulted. And at least, while I insult those, I explain why their position is absurd (as you attempted to do, although poorly IMHO)

As for the Pelosi thread, if she wasn't crazy for saying what she said, and she wasn't lying, then how do you explain what she said? In my opinion, the only 2 possibilities are that she's crazy or a liar. If there is an additional possibility, please enlighten me.