Incredible - No liberal bias, huh?

[justplugit]

Originally Posted by spence

Zimmy, I think you're missing the point about Reagan. His personal philosophy certainly wouldn't have allowed him to "call" himself a Democrat.



-spence

Spence wasn't Regan a Democrat and switched parties when he supported Barry Goldwater, "Mr. Conservative",
when he ran in the 60's?

[zimmy]

Originally Posted by scottw

sure....

Jorge Bush - IBWiki

[zimmy]

El Presidente de los Estados Unidos Jorge W. Bush Defends Immigration Policy

[scottw]

Originally Posted by Chesapeake Bill

Yep, You aren't changing my opinion and I'm not changing yours. Time to move on... See ya..

that should tell you a lot about your "opinion", you simply make statements of opinion with no evidence to back it up beyond some anecdotal beliefs, so I provide facts that clearly disprove your opinion..... and you stand by your "opinion"......is this some odd form of enlightenment where you ignore reality and forge ahead in delusion?

[scottw]

Originally Posted by zimmy

Jorge Bush - IBWiki

:s crewy:

[scottw]

Originally Posted by Chesapeake Bill

I consider McD's a large greedy corporation. A corporation that supports leaders only to gain favors such as exemptions from health care. Given their options they would pay their employees garbage. You can't blame them. They are capitalists.

Secondly, you fail to address the point that not all unions are bad.

name a good one(union)...this is not a point that you are making but rather a vague generalized statement....how should I "address" it...."all unions are not good?"......I've pointed out that the damage being done far outweighs any benefit and good being done, you mentioned:

"the value that unions bring to a region. Don't get me wrong. I am not defending them. Merely pointing out how the economy changes as a result of their actions, often to the good of the citizens who are not represented "

can you point to something more specific? I know that as a result of the Wisconsin "action" millions of taxpayer dollars have had to be spent to clean up the mess, you might call that economic stimulus?...Obama would....but how have "citizens who are not represented" drawn benefit from union actions?. Last year, Oregon's unions spearheaded a successful battle to pass ballot measures 66 and 67, which collectively raised business and income taxes in the state by an estimated $727 million annually. Led by $2 million from the Oregon Education Association and $1.8 million from the Service Employees International Union (SEIU), unions contributed an estimated 75% of the nearly $7 million raised to promote the tax increases, according to the National Institute on Money in State Politics .

are all capitalists bad Bill?

btw...anecdotal story since you like that stuff, and this one is completely factual...my wife spent more than a month at the Ronald McDonald house in Prov. when our oldest was born prematurely...which happened to coincide with the nurese's strike at Women and Infants...while enjoying the benefits of a comfortable place to recover which was established by a greedy corporation in close proximity from which to travel back and forth to the hospital on foot at all hours of the night to take care of our child we simultaneously enjoyed having to wear special badges when entering and leaving the hospital which identified us, and her particularly as she was not always able to have an escort, to the strikers and supporting thugs surrounding the hospital, the badges were suppose to identify her as a patient so that she would not be harassed and attacked as she left the premesis and were not always acknowledged by the mob...the replacement nurses were subject to harassment, threats, violence and vandalism of their vehicles with every changing shift....I guess you can't blame them...they're unionists...right?

[zimmy]

Originally Posted by scottw

businessfacilities.com 2010 state rankings



let's see...North Carolina...or Michigan, RI...etc...?

funny thing, statistics. NC top tier in business climate, but when you look directly at how that translates for the citizens, bottom third or so in most categories

From US census bureau and NCstate website
Rank

Unemployment
41 NORTH CAROLINA 9.9%

Per Capita income
36 NORTH CAROLINA

Home ownership
32 North Carolina 69.4%

Graduation Rate
37 NC 71.4%

SAT rankings
Participation.
11 NC
Reading and Writing
41 NC
Math
35 NC

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by zimmy

funny thing, statistics. NC top tier in business climate, but when you look directly at how that translates for the citizens, bottom third or so in most categories

From US census bureau and NCstate website
Rank

Unemployment
41 NORTH CAROLINA 9.9%

What does this number have to do with unions? Are you suggesting that unionization would raise the employment rate in Norh Carolina? Is 9.9 percent some dramatically high figure compared to the national average? In my great union State of Michigan 9.9 percent would look good.

Per Capita income
36 NORTH CAROLINA

Per Capita income is not necessarily an indicator of union success. A great deal of average income is boosted by non-union, greedy capitalist types and financial sector positions such as in New England. What may be more telling in the "translation" for citizens than Per Capita income is the cost of living. Of the 10 States with the lowest cost of living, 8 are right to work states.

Home ownership
32 North Carolina 69.4%

Percentage of home ownership in North Carolina is not far off from the middle. It beats the percentage in highly touted States such as New York, New Jersey, Illinois, and California. What is the connection between unionization and home ownership?

Graduation Rate
37 NC 71.4%

Again, this figure is not so far off from the middle, and, again, what does unionization have to do with it? So, if everybody joined a union, the graduation rate would rise? Should we start demanding everbody get a degree of some sort so they can get a union job?

SAT rankings
Participation.
11 NC
Reading and Writing
41 NC
Math
35 NC

Again, what's this got to do with unions?

[scottw]

Originally Posted by detbuch

Again, what's this got to do with unions?

maybe Zimmy's statistics indicate that the government schools and unionized teachers are doing and have been doing a crappy job in preparing North Carolina's children to participate in it's growing economy?

this is where it began, I don't know how we ended up at SAT scores...

Chesapeak Bill "I can, however, say that if you look at the current economic situation in southern states (North Carolina is a good example) the average worker makes squat. Why? Becuase there is no union group to set an eaxample for what is the baseline. Good or bad, the unions have helped out non-union workers by establishing baseline salaries. Do you really think hourly wages woudl be where they are without at least one union getting a contract that establishes the standard for what is fair? If so, you are kidding yourself. Without that corporate greed would take hold "

[zimmy]

Originally Posted by scottw

businessfacilities.com 2010 state rankings

Economic Growth Potential
1. South Carolina
2. Tennessee
3. Virginia
4. North Carolina
5. Texas
6. Arizona

Best Business Climate
1. Texas
2. Virginia
3. Utah
4. South Carolina
5. Tennessee
6. North Carolina

Workforce Training Leaders
1. Louisiana
2. Georgia
3. New Mexico
4. Florida
5. North Carolina

probably as a result of all of those retirees moving there for tax reasons those southern states are a disaster

10/15/10 - North Carolina ranked 3rd by Forbes for Best States for Business

Gov. Bev Perdue on Oct. 14 announced Forbes magazine is ranking North Carolina as the 3rd Best State for Business in America. North Carolina improved from last year’s Forbes ranking of fifth. In addition, the Governor announced that recent statistics from the Federal Bureau of Labor and Statistics show North Carolina is the 3rd best state for declining unemployment and 4th in the nation for job creation.

In the Forbes rankings, North Carolina scored third in Business Costs and Regulatory Environment and ninth in Growth Prospect. Forbes scored the states on six measures including business cost, labor supply, regulatory environment, economic climate, growth prospect and quality of life.

let's see...North Carolina...or Michigan, RI...etc...?

Originally Posted by detbuch

Again, what's this got to do with unions?

Scott pointed out that North Carolina has a great climate for business. He also pointed out earlier that NC has one of the lowest union presences. Based on those points, it is reasonable to point out the other statistics. It wasn't specifically union related, but maybe it applies. Hope that clears it up

[zimmy]

Originally Posted by scottw

maybe Zimmy's statistics indicate that the government schools and unionized teachers are doing and have been doing a crappy job in preparing North Carolina's children to participate in it's growing economy?


[/B]"

Huh... the other 40 states ahead of NC also have unionized government schools that are performing better. Maybe there are other factors, like uneducated parents with poor analytical skills??? Maybe the anti-intellectual part of some parents rubs off on the kids?

Oh yeah, SAT scores are included, because they give at least a small idea about education in NC, the state that you are raving about the business climate... which doesn't seem to equate to excellent economic indicators for the people in the state. Sure you could figure that out for yourself, though.

[scottw]

Originally Posted by zimmy

Scott pointed out that North Carolina has a great climate for business. He also pointed out earlier that NC has one of the lowest union presences no I didn't, I have no idea what the union presesnce is or is not in NC, . Based on those points, it is reasonable to point out the other statistics. Hope that clears it up

I pointed out that it is ranked well for business climate and as of 10/15/10 - North Carolina ranked 3rd by Forbes for Best States for Business

Gov. Bev Perdue on Oct. 14 announced Forbes magazine is ranking North Carolina as the 3rd Best State for Business in America. North Carolina improved from last year’s Forbes ranking of fifth. In addition, the Governor announced that recent statistics from the Federal Bureau of Labor and Statistics show North Carolina is the 3rd best state for declining unemployment and 4th in the nation for job creation.

the two in bold are not unrelated

[scottw]

Originally Posted by zimmy

Huh... the other 40 states ahead of NC also have unionized government schools that are performing better. Maybe there are other factors, like uneducated parents with poor analytical skills??? Maybe the anti-intellectual part of some parents rubs off on the kids?

sounds racist.....and depends on how you define "performing better"

America is spending more money on education while producing worse outcomes.
Veronique de Rugy from the March 2011 issue

In November the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) released its Program for International Student Assessment scores, measuring educational achievement in 65 countries. The results are depressingly familiar: While students in many developed nations have been learning more and more over time, American 15-year-olds are stuck in the middle of the pack in many fundamental areas, including reading and math. Yet the United States is near the top in education spending.

Using the OECD data, Figure 1 compares K–12 education expenditures per pupil in each of the world’s major industrial powers. With the exception of Switzerland, the U.S. spends the most in the world on education, an average of $91,700 per student in the nine years between the ages of 6 and 15. But the results do not correlate.



"anti-intellectual"

[zimmy]

[QUOTE=scottw;844289]sounds racist.....and depends on how you define "performing better"

[/B]


racist? that's reaching. "performing better" is only related to sat scores, as it says in the post.


The question is why doesn't the great business climate translate to exceptional or even better than average economic standing for the people of NC, instead of the bottom 3rd of the states? I won't pretend to know the answer, but I bet you have one. What are the jobs that are being created?

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by zimmy

racist? that's reaching. "performing better" is only related to sat scores, as it says in the post.


The question is why doesn't the great business climate translate to exceptional or even better than average economic standing for the people of NC, instead of the bottom 3rd of the states? I won't pretend to know the answer, but I bet you have one. What are the jobs that are being created?

It will probably take some time for the Southern States to close economic gaps with Northern States, although they have gained considerably on some of the once heavily industrial ones that are heading toward the crapper. And you're right, there are many complicated factors involved in the forming of "economic standing." The racial/slavery heritage and its culture still lingers in holding down average "indicators." The past drain of educated and talented Southerners to States that offered jobs that weren't traditionally to be found in the South is a factor as well. But that may be changing, and if business sees a growing opportunity to settle in lower tax, lesser unionized States, things may change more rapidly. North Carolina ranks in the upper third in percentage growth of per capita income for the period 1980-2009, and is in the upper half of States with lower cost of living index. So life is not as harsh as your indicators might imply. No doubt that old cultural attitudes may hold back SAT scores, but those can rise as more jobs are captured from the North and opportunities attract and promote a different "culture." As for education being a key to higher income, there is a correlation that may suffer from the diminishing returns of investing in it. The greater the percentage of educated, the less the economic importance of education. And the more disparity in the percentage of educated the greater is the importance of education. Washington DC had by far the greatest percentage of growth of per capita income between 1980-2009 than all of the States, yet it's school system is the most pathetic.

[zimmy]

Interesting points Detbuch. One of my reasons for posting the statistics was specifically to show that using rankings as Scott did doesn't necessarily tell much of the real story. There are dozens of reasons NC falls where it does. I love the place and would love to live in most of the areas I have been to down there. I am curious to know how much of the DC per capita income actually stays in the DC school district. I know a bunch of people, including relatives who work in the city and live outside or even as far as Annapolis. Their kids definitely wouldn't go to the city schools, but the suburbs have very well respected public schools. I have said it many times in these pages and I think it is worth reiterating, trying to connect very complex problems just to unions or one political party is typically not only factual incorrect, but useless.

[JohnnyD]

Oh man, this is a S$#t show I'm glad I've avoided.