GAZA

[spence]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

So if I understand you correctly, you believe Israel is launching a pre-emptive strike against Hamas.

No, it's a preemptive strike against Iran.

-spence

[justplugit]

Originally Posted by spence

Recent analysis suggests the Gaza operation is simply a test before the Iran air strike on nuke facilities.

So Iran has been sneaking long-rang rockets into Gaza to use Hamas in retaliatory strikes if Israel attacks...so you preempt by removing Hamas leadership and said rockets. Then attack Iran in self defense.



-spence

Then there is a different theory.
Iran sneaks longer range rockets through Sudan to Gaza to show Israel that
if it attacks Iran's nuclear sites they are open to attack from Iran and Gaza, now being able to hit Jeruselem and Tel Aviv.
Kinda makes more sense as Gaza is the one who strarted the rocket attacks.

[Nebe]

Originally Posted by justplugit

Then there is a different theory.
Iran sneaks longer range rockets through Sudan to Gaza to show Israel that
if it attacks Iran's nuclear sites they are open to attack from Iran and Gaza, now being able to hit Jeruselem and Tel Aviv.
Kinda makes more sense as Gaza is the one who strarted the rocket attacks.

That's how I see it
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[spence]

Originally Posted by justplugit

Then there is a different theory.
Iran sneaks longer range rockets through Sudan to Gaza to show Israel that
if it attacks Iran's nuclear sites they are open to attack from Iran and Gaza, now being able to hit Jeruselem and Tel Aviv.

Isn't that what I just said?

It may be more likely for Iran to respond via proxy to avoid a direct counter attack if Iran used long-range missiles.

Kinda makes more sense as Gaza is the one who strarted the rocket attacks.

This is where the dysfunction of the situation muddies the water. A Gazan would argue that the Israeli blockades have killed their economy and they have a right to defend themselves.

With these protracted engagements it's hard to tell where individual elements really begin and end.

-spence

[cheferson]

So it's ok for us to give arms to Israel ( 3 dead so far ) , but not for Egypt or Iran to do the same for the Palestinians(over 100 dead with many children/civilians ) ?

[buckman]

Originally Posted by cheferson

So it's ok for us to give arms to Israel ( 3 dead so far ) , but not for Egypt or Iran to do the same for the Palestinians(over 100 dead with many children/civilians ) ?

You do know Iran wants us dead ...
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[likwid]

Originally Posted by buckman

You do know Iran wants us dead ...
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Yes, everyone believes the Iranian version of Rush Limbaugh.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by likwid

Yes, everyone believes the Iranian version of Rush Limbaugh.

So if they develop a nuke, that wouldn't concern you?

Not everyone who says Iran is a threat, is a right-wing rdical. However, the only folks saying that we don't need to worry about Iran, are themselves radicals. Misinformed radicals.

Most folks agree that if Iran is a barbaric regime, hell-bent on enslaving as many people as possible under their thumb.

[likwid]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

So if they develop a nuke, that wouldn't concern you?

Not everyone who says Iran is a threat, is a right-wing rdical. However, the only folks saying that we don't need to worry about Iran, are themselves radicals. Misinformed radicals.

Most folks agree that if Iran is a barbaric regime, hell-bent on enslaving as many people as possible under their thumb.

I suppose you think the queen is the supreme ruler of the UK too right?

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by buckman

You do know Iran wants us dead ...
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Relevantly, much of the hate from Iran towards the US stems from US policy with regards to Israel-Palestine relations.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

Relevantly, much of the hate from Iran towards the US stems from US policy with regards to Israel-Palestine relations.

So we let Iran bully us into changing our foreign policy?

If the barbaric kooks in Iran hate what we're doing in the Middle East, that's pretty good reason for me to assume we are doing the right thing.

The Civil Rights workers who fought in the segregated south used to have a saying..."if the Klan is shooting at you, you must be doing something right".

Happy Thanksgiving Johnny. Following UCONN hoops at all?

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

So we let Iran bully us into changing our foreign policy?

If the barbaric kooks in Iran hate what we're doing in the Middle East, that's pretty good reason for me to assume we are doing the right thing.

The Civil Rights workers who fought in the segregated south used to have a saying..."if the Klan is shooting at you, you must be doing something right".

Happy Thanksgiving Johnny. Following UCONN hoops at all?

Not necessarily. I think we should change our foreign policy with Israel because I think they are a bunch of instigators. They're like the little squirt who talks tough knowing that his big brother would come in and beat everyone up if he got in trouble.

Israel acts the way they do because the US is their safety net. Not much different than a lot of risks taken by banks in the financial sector who know that they have the government as a safety net should they be on the verge of going belly up.

Happy Thanksgiving to you too. Honestly, I don't follow any college sports at all - don't have the mental capacity for it.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by cheferson

So it's ok for us to give arms to Israel ( 3 dead so far ) , but not for Egypt or Iran to do the same for the Palestinians(over 100 dead with many children/civilians ) ?

Cheferson, it is horrible, absolutely tragic, that the Palestinians have lost so many civilians.

But I'll ask again...if Hamas starts lobbing missiles into Israeli civilian areas, and the Hamas military leaders intentionally operate in civilian areas (using their own civilians as shields), what is Israel supposed to do? What are they supposed to do?

I'll also say that as lopsided as a 100-3 casualty ratio may appear...war is not supposed to be a game where everybody wins. You don't let the other side score a few points to make them feel bettter. The goal is 100-0, not 100-3. You try to avoid hurting non-combatants on the other side, but in the end, all that matters is protecting your own. That's ugly, but it's reality.

Yes, it's OK for us to give arms to Israel, and it's not OK for anyone to arm the Palestinians. Here's why. If the Palestinians never fired another shot, neither would Israel. If Israel never fired another shot, they would be annihilated.

There is a moral distinction between the the attacker and the person who gets attacked and fights back. Not that the Israelis haven't made mistakes. But you can't say with a straight face that they are routinely the aggressor. Israel has made enormous concessions in the West Bank and in Gaza. It wasn't enough, it will never be enough.

[detbuch]

As far as aid to Israel or Bush's Africa/aids thing, a point of view that most might agree on is the good old American capitalist analysis: cost vs. benefit and risk vs. reward.

Does giving Israel money return equal, or preferrably, greater benefits? How many billions of dollars would we have to spend developing not only military technology but other high tech products that the Israelies create and share with us versus the amount we give them. What is the risk of investing in the trade vs. the reward? Do we wish to have strong allies in the rest of the world, especially in those parts that cause us trouble and harm? Is Israel such an ally? Does it provide us with a foothold in the heart of the world that harbors enemies that wish to harm us? Does it provide intel that would be much more difficult to gather? Would providing it military aid support any military actions we might have to incur? Would the reward be greater if we didn't take the risk of assisting Israel? Would it be replaced by equally strong allies? Would the Middle East then become "pro-American"? Or is our problem with the Middle East a difference in values and principles. Is our attachment to Israel due to a sharing of those values and principles and our problem with the rest of the area a difference in those values and principles? Would our reward be greater if we abandoned our principles and espoused those of our enemies? These are some of the things to consider, there are others, no doubt. If we stick strictly to cost vs. benefit and risk vs. reward, we can agree on whether to assist Israel or not.

Bush Africa/aids thing I always considered more of a way to control the spread of aids than so-called humanitarian assistance. Of course one sort of eqauls the other. If the money actually accomplished what it intended, lessening the potentially worldwide spread of aids, then I think most would say the benefit was worth the cost, and the reward was greater than any risk.

[spence]

Bingo...

News from The Associated Press

-spence

[scottw]

Originally Posted by spence

Bingo...

News from The Associated Press

-spence

deja vu all over again Nostradamus.... you would appear to be applauding the Muslim Brotherhood and expansion of their dominance and influence.....Bingo!


CBS- Riding high on U.S. and international praise for mediating a Gaza cease-fire, Mohammed Morsi put himself above oversight and gave protection to the Islamist-led assembly writing a new constitution from a looming threat of dissolution by court order.

But the move is likely to fuel growing public anger that he and his Muslim Brotherhood are seizing too much power.


Nov 23,
Rallies for, against Egypt president's new powers

CAIRO (AP) -- Demonstrators for and against sweeping new powers assumed by Egypt's Islamist president are gathering in different parts of Cairo, a clear show of the deep polarization plaguing the country.

President Mohammed Morsi's decree puts himself above the judiciary and also exempts the Islamist-dominated constituent assembly writing Egypt's new constitution from judicial review. Liberal and secular members earlier walked out of the body, charging it would impose strict Islamic practices.

..Mursi draws fire with new Egypt decree
By Marwa Awad | Reuters – 15 hours ago..

Presented as a move to "protect the revolution", the decree won immediate praise from Mursi's allies but stoked fears among secular-minded Egyptians that the Muslim Brotherhood and its allies aim to dominate the new Egypt.

Leading liberal politician Mohamed ElBaradei, writing on his Twitter account, said Mursi had "usurped all state powers and appointed himself Egypt's new pharaoh".


Nov 22,

Egypt Brotherhood leader blasts peace with Israel

CAIRO(AP) -- The top leader of Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood denounced peace efforts with Israel and urged holy war to liberate Palestinian territories on Thursday - one day after the country's president, who hails from the movement, mediated a cease-fire between Israelis and Palestinians to end eight days of fierce fighting.

"The enemy knows nothing but the language of force," said Mohammed Badie. "Be aware of the game of grand deception with which they depict peace accords," he said in a statement carried on the group's website and emailed to reporters.

Nov. 16th
Arriving in Gaza Friday, Prime Minister Kandil pledged his country’s support for the Palestinian people. He called for a Palestinian state with Jerusalem as its capital, according to the Times of Israel:

“Egypt after the revolution will work toward an extended calm, and afterwards for the establishment of a Palestinian state with Jerusalem as its capital. That is the only way to achieve stability in the region,” says Kandil.

The Egyptian prime minister urged all Palestinian factions to unite. “The strength of the Palestinan people lies in its unity. That is the way to achieve victory,” he says.

[scottw]

"What did Hamas hope to gain from this latest round of fighting, which it started with a barrage of about 150 rockets into Israel? To formally translate Hamas’s recent strategic gains into a new, more favorable status quo with Israel. It works like this:

Hamas’s new strength comes from two sources. First, its new rocketry, especially the Fajr-5, smuggled in from Iran, that can now reach Tel Aviv and Jerusalem, putting 50 percent of Israel’s population under its guns.

Second, Hamas has gained strategic strength from changes in the regional environment. It has acquired the patronage and protection of important Middle Eastern states as a result of the Arab Spring and the Islamist reversal in Turkey.

For 60 years, non-Arab Turkey had been a reliable ally of Israel. The vicious turnaround instituted by its Islamist prime minister, Recep Erdogan, reached its apogee on Monday when he called Israel a terrorist state.

Egypt is now run by Hamas’s own mother organization, the Muslim Brotherhood, of which Hamas is simply the Palestinian wing. And the emir of Qatar recently visited Gaza, leaving behind a promise of a cool $400 million."

Why Was There War in Gaza? - National Review Online


"I actually see this as constructive.

Post Arab Spring it will be events like this that lead to solutions."

-spence

[spence]

Originally Posted by scottw

Why Was There War in Gaza? - National Review Online

Even for Kraut this is pretty out there.

-spence

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by spence

Even for Kraut this is pretty out there.

-spence

Spence--You do realize that have said nothing meaningful here . . . "out there"? Where? Is there any "there" there in your comment? PLEASE ELUCIDATE!