In economic speech, Obama reveals true colors (and reveals he is insane)

[likwid]

Context is everything, the only desperate folks around here are you guys trying to analyze it by itself.

If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you’ve got a business -- you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen. The Internet didn’t get invented on its own. Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet.

The point is, is that when we succeed, we succeed because of our individual initiative, but also because we do things together. There are some things, just like fighting fires, we don’t do on our own. I mean, imagine if everybody had their own fire service. That would be a hard way to organize fighting fires.

Nope, it wasn't YOU who toiled away with building this. Rather, it was the FCC! Hooray for the government!! John, therefore you OWE it to the rest of us to give even more of your revenue to the feds. Otherwise, you are a selfish, greedy, bastard.

Jim, why do you hate JohnR? Why do you think he's a selfish greedy bastard? He puts in alot more work to keep this place running than you do. You should apologize to JohnR. Right now.
You make me sad.

[PaulS]

Why do you bother?

[likwid]

Originally Posted by PaulS

Why do you bother?

Its amusing.

And do you see how much he hates this site?
Disgusting isn't it?

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by zimmy

Half the country doesn't give two craps what the America-hating foreign-born Muslim was actually getting at.

Zimmy, please show m ethe data that suggests that half the country thinks Obama was not born here?

Obama says something that is clearly stupid and divisive. I call him on it. Your immediate reaction is to dismiss me as a kooky hate-monger.

I believe he was born here. I also believe he hates much of what the country stands for, and I'm not crazy for concluding that. I'm just oblectively lookingh at the facts.

Obama's wife admitted that she was never proud of the country before he got elected.

Obama's spiritual advisor (Rev wright) clearly hates the country. The man said that the US Govt invented the AIDS virus to eradicate the black man.

Obama's political mentor is an unapologetic domestic terrorist named Bill Ayers, whose group planted bombs in police cars, targeting policemen who had done nothing wrong. Ayers hosted a fundraiser in his home for Barack Obama. That indicates a close relationship.

Obama's wife, spiritual advisor, and political mentor, clearly dislike the country. And many of Obama's apologies suggest he doesn't view America they way many Americans do.

Facts, Zimmy. No crazy, unsubstantiated conjecture, just facts.

[likwid]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

Obama
Obama
Obama
Obama
Obama
Obama
Obama
Obama

The only thing here thats crazy is your mancrush on Obama.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by likwid

Context is everything, the only desperate folks around here are you guys trying to analyze it by itself.

If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you’ve got a business -- you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen. The Internet didn’t get invented on its own. Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet.

The point is, is that when we succeed, we succeed because of our individual initiative, but also because we do things together. There are some things, just like fighting fires, we don’t do on our own. I mean, imagine if everybody had their own fire service. That would be a hard way to organize fighting fires.



Jim, why do you hate JohnR? Why do you think he's a selfish greedy bastard? He puts in alot more work to keep this place running than you do. You should apologize to JohnR. Right now.
You make me sad.

Likwid, if you read my post and concluded that I hate John R, you desperately need to take an elementary school reading comprehension course.

I was saying that based on what Obama explicitly said, John R didn't build this site. In Obama's words, "someone else made that happen". Therefore, if you believe Obama, John R doesn't deserve any rewards that this site provides. Those rewards rightfully belong to the "someone else" that Obama says created this site, and that "someone else", according to Obama, is the government.

Likwid, everything I wrote in that post, is what Obama, not I, clearly believe. Obama, not I, thinks that John R didn't create this great site. SO if you think my words were hurtful to John, then you must also think that Obama's sentiment, which I was relying on, was wrong.

So in effect, you proved my point. Thanks for the assist.

[PaulS]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

Likwid, if you read my post and concluded that I hate John R, you desperately need to take an elementary school reading comprehension course.

.

Jim, I agree that you didn't say that.

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

Zimmy, please show m ethe data that suggests that half the country thinks Obama was not born here?

but did Zimmy say 1/2 the country thinks Obama was not born here?

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by likwid

I mean, imagine if everybody had their own fire service. That would be a hard way to organize fighting fires.[/I]

Likwid, who is suggesting that we all start our own firehouses?

What Obama did there, and you sucked it up like a Hoover deluxe, is put radical, extremist, kooky words in the mouth of those who disagree with him.

Likwid, no rational person opopses property taxes being levied to fund a fire department. However, a very strong case can be made that you shouldn't take so much from me in taxes, so that the firemen can retire at age 45 with a fat pension and insane health benefits for teh rest of his life.

It's perfectly valid to question the validity of fire department benefits that are bankrupting cities everywhere. Rather than engage in that discussion, Obama says "see, conservatives want to get rid of the fire department".

We don't want to get rid of the fire department. We just don't want to overpay them.

That's off topic. But the point is, liberals have a recurring habit of taking a conservative issue, and taking it to a kooky extreme, in order to dismiss it. So in this case, Obama suggests that Republicans are suggesting we should get rid of the fire department. In reality, no one is saying that. But it's a lot easier for liberals to pretend that conservatives are a bunch of lunatics who want to get rid of the fire department, than it is to defend those insane benefits that firemen receive.

Put down the Kool Aid for 2 seconds, and listen to what each side is saying. Don't listen to what MSNBC says that conservatives are saying. Listen to what we are actually saying.

Small businesses have a responsibility to pay taxes to support the system that allows them to thrive. They should not be forced to pay confiscatory tax rates, particularly when that money is wasted to create burdensome regulation, or to go to political payoffs like Planned Parenthood funding, or billions to wasteful green energy projects, or to welfare priograms that give poor teenagers a financial incentive to have kids out of wedlock. That's what conservatives object to.

[likwid]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

Likwid, if you read my post and concluded that I hate John R, you desperately need to take an elementary school reading comprehension course.

Jim, you called JohnR a selfish greedy bastard, your words.
Why are you trying to put your words into context you dirty liar?

This type of hypocrasy is disgusting. You should leave this site and go to "the other place" immediately where people like you belong.

[likwid]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

Listen to what we are actually saying.

You sound like you belong in a trailer park.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by likwid

You sound like you belong in a trailer park.

OK. If I ask you to judge me based on what I am actually saying and what I actually stand for, I'm trailer trash. Got it.

Once again. I did not sincerely insult John R. My point, and it is valid, is that Obama is calling entrepeneurs like John R selfish. Obama insults these entrepeneurs almost every single time he opens his mouth, because he explicitly states that entrepeneurs (1) are not responsible for their own success, and (2) don't want to pay their fair share to help those less fortunate.

I say kudos to John for creating this site. I hope it keeps growing and he sells it for a zillion dollars, I truly hope that. I, unlike Obama, recognize that I'm here learning about fishing, thanks to his hard work. John deserves teh credit for this site, not the feds.

Likwid, you could not have missed my point any more thoroughly, and you're probably the only one here who thinks I was sincerely calling John R selfish.

I also hope you note that you insulted me personally, and that I did not respond in kind.

[likwid]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

Once again. I did not sincerely insult John R.

Pigs with JATOs strapped to them. Pigs with JATOs.

[likwid]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

I say kudos to John for creating this site. I hope it keeps growing and he sells it for a zillion dollars, I truly hope that.

WHAT IS THAT STRANGE FLOPPING NOISE I HEAR?


ps: how's yer pushy?

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by PaulS

Jim, I agree that you didn't say that.



but did Zimmy say 1/2 the country thinks Obama was not born here?

"Jim, I agree that you didn't say that."

I figured you knew what I meant...

"but did Zimmy say 1/2 the country thinks Obama was not born here"

In my opinion, yes he did...he said this...

"Half the country doesn't give two craps what the America-hating foreign-born Muslim was actually getting at."

I took that as Zimmy specualting that half the country (the conservative half) thinks Obama hates America and wasn't born here...

[The Dad Fisherman]

Give it a rest Gents.....Likwid, stop poking the dragon Please

[likwid]

Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman

Give it a rest Gents.....Likwid, stop poking the dragon Please

More like a skink.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by likwid

WHAT IS THAT STRANGE FLOPPING NOISE I HEAR?


ps: how's yer pushy?

Likwid, here is what I actually wrote, bold font added here for emphasis...

"JohnR, aren't you relieved to hear Obama declare that it wasn't YOU that built this great website? Nope, it wasn't YOU who toiled away with building this. Rather, it was the FCC! Hooray for the government!! John, therefore you OWE it to the rest of us to give even more of your revenue to the feds. Otherwise, you are a selfish, greedy, bastard."

Likwid, I was demonsrtating how crazy Obama's notion is, that it wasn't John who built this site, but "someone else". That's clearly what Obama believes, not what I believe.

I don't know how else to say it, sorry, I'm not a professional writer.

Our system created an environment where folks like John can create proprietary websites. Without that environment, John could not have built this site. But it was John, not "someone else", who created this site. I can't fathom how Obama could say otherwise, but he did. And I have no doubt he believes it.

I still cannot believe the words Obama used, and it may well haunt him in November. This could be his "Joe-the-plumber" moment for 2012. I hope that's what happens...

[JohnnyD]

Since this is yet another Political Forum thread that has turned into poo poo... I'm just going to post semi-relevant pictures that amuse me.







And my favorite...

[zimmy]

Originally Posted by PaulS

Jim, I agree that you didn't say that.



but did Zimmy say 1/2 the country thinks Obama was not born here?

That is classic
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[buckman]

That last one made me laugh JD

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by zimmy

Now why would anyone want to do that? Half the country doesn't give two craps what the America-hating foreign-born Muslim was actually getting at.

Just as Spence, above the fray of us "funny" folk, instructed us to read the full transcript, but disdained from helping us understand Obama's true message with examples from the speech, you also dismiss us (from a better place than we occupy?) also without explaining what Obama was getting at.

I DO understant you were being sarcastic (nice). And, as I responded to Spence, with no return reply on his part, I DID read the whole transcript and found that other than the "sound bites" being discussed here, the rest of it was the usual platitudes, lies, distortions, contradictions, and promises one would expect from a politician running for office. So, in response to your "why would anyone want to do that?" I read it again, with the same conclusion.

Some examples:

His opposition's "theory is the economy grows from the top down . . . if the wealthy investors are doing well, then everybody does well." No, not just wealthy investors, most of us have some investments of some kind. If investments are doing well, it is a sign that the ecomony is doing well. Some investments, including those by wealthy investors may not do well . The economy may do well anyway. Investments, as a whole, do well when that in which is invested does well. But the economy is symbiotic. It requires more than wealthy investors, but it does well with them and with the investment of others. "Trickle down" requires a down as well as an up from which it trickles, and that obviously implies the necessity of the down, not an elimination of it. If you want to make a class warfare argument, then you separate all the elements and point to the element of your choice (that which gives you the most votes), and "fight" for it.

He goes on "So if we spend trillions of dollars on more tax cuts mostly for the wealthy, that's somehow going to create jobs, even if we have to pay for it by gutting education and gutting job training programs and gutting transportation projects, and maybe seeing middle-class folks have a higher tax burden." More class warfare rhetoric--"gutting" various programs and projects some of which are not doing what their supposed to do, or not performing well, or are not really Federal Government responsibilities, and would be done better by some States and would actually empower the middle class in those States by giving it the power to accept or reject or improve those programs.

He goes on: "they believe if you tear down all the regulations that we've put in place . . . that somehow the economy is going to do much better. So those are their two theories. They've got tax cuts for the high end, and they've got rollback regulation. . .Now here is the problem. You may have guessed--we tried this. We tried this in the last decade and it did not work." More warfare rhetoric--"tear down all the regulations"--who wants to "tear" them ALL down. Actually tax cuts have historically worked to improve the economy not only in the past ten years but the last 30, and 50, and more. And many regulations were actually added, including even in the "past ten years." I don't point this out to endorse Bush, merely to point out the gibberish that we who read the transcript are supposed to discover to be the true message of Obama.

He says: "I believe that the way you grow the economy is from the middle out." More class warfare. Choose a section to divide, then promise to fight for it, not for everybody.

Then he changes his mind: "I believe that you grow the economy from the bottom up." Well, maybe he considers the middle class the bottom.

He says: "I believe when working people are doing well, the country does well." DUH! And none work harder than business owners.

He says: "I believe in fighting for the middle class because if they're prospering, all of us will prosper." Good old divide and conquer class warfare.

He goes on about taxes going up on 98% if Congress doesn't act and calls the extension of Bush taxes a cut when it is merely a status quo. But he doesn't want the status quo for the top 2%, so for them he wants a tax hike. So, net, his opposition wants to maintain the status quo, no tax hikes, but, net, he wants a tax hike. More class warfare.

Then he goes on about the Repubs trying for the 33d time to repeal the HCB which he says the SCOTUS declared constitutional. But it did so as a tax. So he is massively raising taxes on the middle class that he fights for. And he goes on and on about what he's done for us which, including the maintence of tax cuts for 98%, being what people need to succeed--government action, tax those who do well so that they don't do too well and don't tax the rest so they presumably will do well--and it all depends on government not the individual.

So not taxing what he considers the engine of economy, the middle class, is an admission that taxing our economic engine is anti-growth. It's just that he views the train of cars as the engine, and the engine as an obstruction to the train rather than what pulls it.

[Jim in CT]

To the progressives/liberals here -

Let's consider the successful entrepeneur Obama is targeting with his rhetoric and proposed tax hikes. He's talking about folks whose taxable income is above $250,000. To get taxable income over $250,00, let's say your gross income is $300,000.

Here is my question to you. How much of that guy's income do you think it's reasonable for the government (federal, state, local) to confiscate in taxes? What percentage shuold that guy be able to keep?

I keep hearing liberals say "well, tax rates on the rich were more than 70% when Eisenhower was president, and the wealthy Americans got by OK...". Obama himself has used this argument. It's completely dishonest for 2 reasons. First, there were many loopholes and deductions then that don't exist today (for example, back in the day, credit card interest was a deduction), so that virtually no one payed that top rate. Second, other taxes exist today that didn't exist then. In CT, there was no state income tax then. Today, there is an average income tax of 5.5%. So we need to consider total tax burden.

I can't believe that anyone thinks that the public has a right to more than 40% of what anyone else makes.

[Piscator]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

To the progressives/liberals here -

Let's consider the successful entrepeneur Obama is targeting with his rhetoric and proposed tax hikes. He's talking about folks whose taxable income is above $250,000. To get taxable income over $250,00, let's say your gross income is $300,000.

Here is my question to you. How much of that guy's income do you think it's reasonable for the government (federal, state, local) to confiscate in taxes? What percentage shuold that guy be able to keep?

I keep hearing liberals say "well, tax rates on the rich were more than 70% when Eisenhower was president, and the wealthy Americans got by OK...". Obama himself has used this argument. It's completely dishonest for 2 reasons. First, there were many loopholes and deductions then that don't exist today (for example, back in the day, credit card interest was a deduction), so that virtually no one payed that top rate. Second, other taxes exist today that didn't exist then. In CT, there was no state income tax then. Today, there is an average income tax of 5.5%. So we need to consider total tax burden.

I can't believe that anyone thinks that the public has a right to more than 40% of what anyone else makes.

You can include Alternative Minimum Tax to the list.....aka extortion

Governments cute little way to force you to work a little less, make less money and be less productive………

[RIJIMMY]

Originally Posted by Piscator

You can include Alternative Minimum Tax to the list.....aka extortion

Governments cute little way to force you to work a little less, make less money and be less productive………

exactly. Also, take into account that many deductions or benefits taxpayers get are reduced the more % you make. For example - parents can take a % of 5k for daycare while they work. but the more $$ you make the % gets less and less. Resulting in a higher % of tax paid aka rate. There are many examples of this. All of which are not captured when you discuss tax rates. Rates are one component.

[zimmy]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

exactly. Also, take into account that many deductions or benefits taxpayers get are reduced the more % you make. For example - parents can take a % of 5k for daycare while they work. but the more $$ you make the % gets less and less. Resulting in a higher % of tax paid aka rate. There are many examples of this. All of which are not captured when you discuss tax rates. Rates are one component.

We have been down this road before. The effective tax rates across the board are about as low now as any time in the last 70 years. That takes into account all deductions, loopholes, etc. It is all taxes paid divided by gross income. People can look into it. This link only goes 1979 to 2007, but the numbers haven't changed much in the last 5 years, but one could look it up here http://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/fil...edtaxrates.pdf if they wanted.

Historical Effective Federal Tax Rates for All Households

It understand it FEELS good to complain about taxes being so much higher today, but the facts don't back it up.

[RIJIMMY]

Originally Posted by zimmy

We have been down this road before. The effective tax rates across the board are about as low now as any time in the last 70 years. That takes into account all deductions, loopholes, etc. It is all taxes paid divided by gross income. People can look into it. This link only goes 1979 to 2007, but the numbers haven't changed much in the last 5 years, but one could look it up here http://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/fil...edtaxrates.pdf if they wanted.

Historical Effective Federal Tax Rates for All Households

It understand it FEELS good to complain about taxes being so much higher today, but the facts don't back it up.

zimmy if you saw what I pay in taxes you'd crap your pants. the % is significantly higher than the average taxpayer.

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

zimmy if you saw what I pay in taxes you'd crap your pants. the % is significantly higher than the average taxpayer.

I feel your pain. How do you think I feel as a business owner when you include all the other taxes I'm required to pay in addition to income tax? Touched almost 50% when I did all the math out a couple years ago.

[striperman36]

I'll pay in 4 states this year. Not all reciprocial

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by zimmy

We have been down this road before. The effective tax rates across the board are about as low now as any time in the last 70 years. That takes into account all deductions, loopholes, etc. It is all taxes paid divided by gross income. People can look into it. This link only goes 1979 to 2007, but the numbers haven't changed much in the last 5 years, but one could look it up here http://www.cbo.gov/sites/default/fil...edtaxrates.pdf if they wanted.

Historical Effective Federal Tax Rates for All Households

It understand it FEELS good to complain about taxes being so much higher today, but the facts don't back it up.

Most states did not have an income tax before. Many states did not have sales taxes. Most towns did not have car taxes before (here in CT, I pay my town $900 a year in "car tax" for my 3 year old minivan and my 6 year old Accord).

We need to look at TOTAL tax rates. That's what really matters. I presume you chose not to look at total tax rates, because doing so would refute the point you were making...

Zimmy, Johnny D says his rate touched 50% recently. How does that fit into your data?

[sburnsey931]

I am a Business owner in Mass. 10 years as a Commercial Drywall Company.
It's not glamorous but it's what I do.
Every job I get is a competive bid against a number of similar firms. Then further negotiated. I then proceed to build say Walmart or say maybe an offfice building. I have to purchase the material and provide the manpower to complete the job profitably. Oh yeah I finance the job also......at best in 90 days I'll start to see a monthly payment on the job. Most smaller jobs are completed out of pocket. the joke is every morning I wake up and say" I'm all in". the risks are high. After I make this gross profit of 17-20% I pay my matching FICA of 7.5%on my payroll, though I think I get a 1.5% break(bush tax cut). then 7% workers comp then 3% liability and don't forgot 12% uneployment on the first 14k per man...I have 30. I have 3 trucks and office estimator and secratary. My monthly gas bill is $1600. When it is all said and done we strive for 8-10% net profit. Depending on volume I will owe 33-35% federal plus my social security being self employed and then my mass state tax.
in the end I get 5% of the money or 1/2 the profit......It's sad but true.
Personally I would think employing 30 men would be enough of a contribution.
I pay about a 100k in just matching FICA yearly...that's more than most.
now if I do well in a given year......They would llike me to "contribute" more.
As the risk taker/owner I should be encouraged not discouraged or worse made to be the greedy owner.
The real problem as I see it the american worker is lazy and unproductive.
They think they are great...why because you showed up.....ya right.....
I always say you have no problem sticking your hand out friday for your check....well I have no problem on tuesday asking for you to work.....
everyone knows people they work with that do nothing all day...if they never showed up again the company would be just fine.... maybe they spend the day on the internet or talk to the girlfriend or my favorite...just brag all day how they don't do anything...
They are the problem...the keep costs high and force companies to build their products elswhere. Or the local tax on real estate is so high because when you hire a 24 year old fire fighter you will pay for him until he dies.....
I tell my 3 sons 1 thing ...work hard...it doesn't matter what someone else does...the system will flush them out...just like if my company can't compete and be profitable the system will flush it out...
Lately a lot of people are having a hard time finding work and corporate profits are up... sounds like the system is working....