Almost didn't post this

[spence]

Originally posted by Eben
I guess it might be for NAV instument training...(no windows on the bridge) Kind of like flying blind

Sounds like perfect metaphor for the entire Bush foreign policy

-spence

[Iwannakeeper]

Here here cheif. I speak specifically about the freedoms we here enjoy. And I want to thank you and every other serviceperson that reads this thread. There is a great bumper-sticker out there, and someone here uses it as their signature.

If you can read this thank a teacher
If it is in english thank a soldier

Well, I personallly would like to thank every soldier for providing the freedoms that I so enjoy.

To address wealth redistribution - it has nothing to do with running the Government. I would happily pay 10% of my salary toward defense and running this country. I am pissed that I have to pay towards welfare and social programs. I do not care if an ART student can't find a job, I do not want my hard earned money going to a grant so he can study the color yellow.

Thanks again to any and all active and inactive US military personel.

-IWK

[spence]

Originally posted by Iwannakeeper
To address wealth redistribution - it has nothing to do with running the Government. I would happily pay 10% of my salary toward defense and running this country. I am pissed that I have to pay towards welfare and social programs. I do not care if an ART student can't find a job, I do not want my hard earned money going to a grant so he can study the color yellow.

Inotgonnagetakeeper,

If everyone paid 10% we still wouldn't have enough money to fund the critical government functions like defense.

And if the size of the US Government is a problem for you, how can you support Bush who has not used his VETO on a single bill that has crossed his desk. The budgetary increases in social spending under Bush are massive. Bush is doing nothing to curtail spending and now our children are going to be footing the bill for a mountain of debt we may never dig out from.

And regarding those like MYSELF who studied YELLOW at an ART SCHOOL using Federally subsidized loans. Education isn't only for the rich, and if it wasn't for federal aid only the rich would be going to college.

Today I pay as much in Federal taxes as I made when I graduated in 1994. My country helped me then, and now I'm returning the favor.

-spence

[KLMulder]

Originally posted by Iwannakeeper


To address wealth redistribution - it has nothing to do with running the Government. I would happily pay 10% of my salary toward defense and running this country. I am pissed that I have to pay towards welfare and social programs. I do not care if an ART student can't find a job, I do not want my hard earned money going to a grant so he can study the color yellow.


-IWK

I agree with you 100%. I have nothing against artist's, if fact I admire Eben's work. You do some great stuff with glass and this is in no way directed at you. There are allot of things I would love to do for a job but they can't pay the bills. I should not be someone else's responsibility to support me so I can do what I want to. I have been self employed most of my life ( up 1 1/2 years ago ) and busted my hump to get by. I was in the lowest tax bracket and guess what, I paid NO Taxes. that's right NO TAX. Why? Because the government said I did not make enough to pay, if fact they gave me more back than I paid in. THIS IS JUST PLAIN WRONG!!! Then you get to listen to the Dem's cry about the tax cuts and bring out there tired old war horse class war fare to try to scare people into believing the Rep's are screwing them and only giving tax cuts to the rich. It's a cart full of BS, every bracket had a rate reduction with the exception of the lowest which do pay any. How could you give me a tax cut if i already paid nothing??? I am not rich but I do understand that the richest 1% ( Dem catch fraise ) pay the majority of the tax that is collected. Keep going Dems, keep bashing them and see where your BS social programs go when they all get pissed and move out of country and pay there tax to someone else.

I need a break from all of this. I'm starting to get aggravated, i enjoy talking to all of you and don't want to take this to a personal level.

KL

[Iwannakeeper]

Spence,

1. no need to make personal attacks. I am not name calling. and I did not mean my comments regarding art to be taken offensively. I address in more detail in item 4 below. I like what I have seen of Eben's work as well. And I encourage and would buy some of Eben's work. But if Eben is getting my tax dollars to subsidise his art, then I am unhappy. I want to make the decision if I buy his work. Let the free market dictate the value of his work, not the government subsidies.

2. I do not like Bush's spending policies and have never indicated that I have. But in this day with the threat of terrorism even Left wing Liberals like Ed Koch are backing Bush. So regardless of what I think of his spending, I want a war-time Commander-in-chief, not a UN Cow-Towing Liberal.

3. 10% was an off the cuff remake. You are correct, the studies have shown a flat 15% with no deductions and loopholes would adaquately subsidise the current government.

4. I do not begrudge anyone's education. Anyone and everyone is eligible to take out LOANS, allow me to repeat that LOANS. Some people qualify for GRANTS to get an education. I am speaking of people who get grant money and it is used as a salary while then work on their Yellow project. No one should be getting a free ride. which is why I disagree with Publicly funded grants. there are enough privately funded grants. We do not need to use tax dollars from hard working Americans to hand-over to the un-initiated. When I went to college, it took 2 loans on top of the "PRIVATE" scholarships I received. and it took a long friggin time to pay off the loans. but I, with the assistance of my family secured the loans and payed them off. no public money was used in the funding of my schooling. Yet I pay an absurd amount in taxes every year.

5. Also in regards to the Governments size and spending, are you trying to imply that Kerry is going to down-size the government? That somehow my paycheck is going to be fatter if Kerry were in office? I am not sure how you could come to that point given no one even know what kerry will do other than waffle.

You can rebut or whatever - but I have had enough. I do not come here to debate politics. I am going to read about fishing....then I am going fishing. I am not posting to this thread further.


Again - this is suppose to be a discussion not a personal attack. If my previous comments are offensive, they are being mis-interpretted. I do not mean them as personal attack, merely an example of where I feel the government spending is erroneous.

[spence]

Originally posted by KLMulder
I was in the lowest tax bracket and guess what, I paid NO Taxes. that's right NO TAX. Why? Because the government said I did not make enough to pay, if fact they gave me more back than I paid in. THIS IS JUST PLAIN WRONG!!!

I assume you gave it back then?

Then you get to listen to the Dem's cry about the tax cuts and bring out there tired old war horse class war fare to try to scare people into believing the Rep's are screwing them and only giving tax cuts to the rich.

KL, the vast majority of tax revenue reduction is returned to the top few percent of wage earners. The benefit seen by the middle class is relatively minor, while the overall cost of living has gone up tremendously.

In general I have no problem with the rich getting more back as they do pay the brunt of the tax burden. But the problem is that the current economic environment doesn't support continued tax cuts for the rich.

Our beloved country can't support the current budget, Bush's fiscal policy is creating a massive debt load that isn't sustainable. When the baby boomers start to retire en masse in 4 years it's going to be like an atom bomb was dropped on our economy. Bush is ignoring the situation entirely.

The idea that tax cuts are always good because they stimulate the economy is the stuff of cheesy high-school Republican club debates.

In the 1990 Gulf war we paid 5% of the bill, today we are fronting 90%, over 200 Billion dollars so far. We are looking at a 450 Billion dollar defecit this year alone with over 7 Trillion dollars of debt. Some economists forcast the debt load is really 10 times higher when you factor in age distribution and the problem looming with Social Security and Medicare in a few years.

So while Bush continues to give even deeper tax cuts, against the advice of the Treasury Secretary (who they fired) and even against the wishes of Repubican Senators like John McCain, we are forced to borrow money to equip our troops.

You guys need to get beyond Reaganomics 101 and take a look at the real problems facing this country. Realize that Bush is doing his best to keep that blanket pulled tightly over your head.

-spence

[spence]

Originally posted by Iwannakeeper
1. no need to make personal attacks. I am not name calling. and I did not mean my comments regarding art to be taken offensively.

I didn't take it personally as I don't think you knew I had a BFA, although your notion that an Art degree is somehow less deserving is quite absurd.

-spence

[maddog2020]

After reading this - I know why I don't come in that often.

My wife believes we shot down the airliner that supposely crashed into the ground. It is some gut feeling she has.

My parents are immigrants and I am first generation in the USA. All I can say is: I LOVE this country and would die defending it. I have always had the utmost respect for the police, fire dept and the military. You know I try to treat each person with the same amount of respect until they prove for me to do otherwise. I hope that I may understand all this madness before I die.

What happened to the kids in Russia is even more terrible - those who rigged the explosives & those who shot the kids in the back as they were fleeing deserve the most painful and worse death I could ever wish upon a human being.

I am amazed at what man can to do to each other. This saddens my heart. I hope that when our children are older that they can feel safe again.

[Nebe]

Originally posted by Iwannakeeper
Spence,

1. I like what I have seen of Eben's work as well. And I encourage and would buy some of Eben's work. But if Eben is getting my tax dollars to subsidise his art, then I am unhappy. I want to make the decision if I buy his work. Let the free market dictate the value of his work, not the government subsidies.

First of all... I dont call myself an artist. I'm a craftsman.
trust me, I bust my ass to make $$ I'm not poor and you'd be very suprised at the volume of work that i sell at my shop.. The glass that i've posted here has really just been stuff that i've made for fun on my lunchbreak, the work that i make to survive is very utilitatian functional work, which is very marketable.. as far as me getting tax dollars to make work is rediculous. the government see's me as a small business and treats me as such. That being said, i will say that because I offer a luxury item to the public, i do depend on peoples disposable income... so when I see that the americans are becoming more and more squeezed of thier income, that means that I will suffer...maybe this wll help some understand my political stance. I also have a newborn who has me really thinking about what this planet will be like in 50 years
There are artists out there that do get grants to do large scale work from fed funds... for instance there is the national endowment for the arts...This fund was set up to give talanted artists the funds to create public arts projects that are solely for the benifit of the public, and to enhance our culture. I gotta say that Bush has cut that program back quite a bit.... maybe even erradicated it.

Again... i pay taxes, i own a business, and i make a profit. oh.. i have healthcare for myself and i own a house and 2 cars.... things are good for me, but i know that they could be better

[spence]

Originally posted by Eben
Again... i pay taxes, i own a business, and i make a profit. oh.. i have healthcare for myself and i own a house and 2 cars.... things are good for me, but i know that they could be better

Eben, you're not getting a Van Staal

[Iwannakeeper]

Eben,

Where do you sell your glass works? I would be interested. I have a mild interst in glasswork, but the little woman is crazy about glass. she went through a Morano (SP) phase. I would love to introduce her to some local Craftsman's work.


I know I said I wouldn't post again, but what the hell.

-IWK

[RIJIMMY]

Eben, you should post your website, its pretty cool



oh yeah....kerry sucks

[Nebe]

bush swallows sorry had to.. couldnt resist

um i dont want to be called a spammer, but you asked, so heres my website... its not current work, but its a good idea of the work i do on a daily basis (since the baby showed up its every other day)...

www.ebenhortonglass.com

[chris L]

I meant what I said
And I said what I meant:
An elephant's faithful
One hundred percent!
You can throw me in jail,
Lock me up in a zoo...
But I won't desert my egg
And I will not abandon Who!

[Bliz]

Eben... you would enjoy www.letsroll911.org

[Hooper]