patriots streak stopped 2day - Page 2 - Striper Talk Striped Bass Fishing, Surfcasting, Boating

Raider Ronnie · 01-03-2005, 09:12 PM

Marino didn't have Jerry Rice either!!!

BigFish · 01-03-2005, 09:15 PM

Pretty naive view from someone I thought had some football knowledge Ron.....you and one other guy in here can't seem to give credit where credit is due!

Because Montana happened to be surrounded by a great team somehow makes him more fortunate than talented?

Favre has not had great teams? Bradshaw? Tarkenton? The list is endless....Marino had some pretty great teams Ron and you know what....he could not rally his troops and take them to the promised land like a truely gifted, talented and great quarterback can!

Bledsoe has numbers coming out of his butt, but he can't get it done and neither could Marino!

Raider Ronnie · 01-03-2005, 09:22 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BigFish
[B]...Marino had some pretty great teams Ron and you know what....

Great teams?
Name one of them!!!
He had one of the greatest centers and a few other good linemen!!! a GREAT Punter (Reggie Roby) also!!!
As for Favre, he had about 4 great years in a row !!!
And if the Pats had a clue how to NOT kick off to Desmond Howard, he would not have won a superbowl.
It didn't hurt that he had Reggie White and Sean jones and a few othere on the defense!!!

TheSpecialist · 01-03-2005, 09:50 PM

Stats aside, how could you objectively decide who is the best quarterback? Personally Brady could be the worst QB in the league for all I care, as long as THE TEAM keeps winning SuperBowls.

BigFish · 01-03-2005, 10:06 PM

My mind is a little blurry cause it was so long ago, but didn't Marino and one of his recievers share the record for the most touchdown connections all-time between a QB and a reciever?

I will do my homework Ron and force feed you the info....but I am sure you will have some lame reason as to why Marino could not win a Superbowl anyway.....I can give you the best reason why he did not win one.........Joe "Cool" Montana!

Vectorfisher · 01-03-2005, 10:16 PM

Bigfish in your earlier post you bring up QB rating, well I already told you I did not think Ben R was great he has not been time tested however he did rate a 98.1 in his Rookie season! Does that make him great? And do you know what Brady's rating is this year?? And did you know this is his highest QB rating since he has started???An Islander and everyone else who thinks Corey Dillon makes a huge difference in that game, did you really watch that game?? The Steelers manhandled the Patriots on both sides of the ball, if you have it on tape look again, the Pats don't win that day with or without him it wasn't there day

BigFish · 01-03-2005, 10:26 PM

Food for thought Ron....Marino had a tandem consisting of two of the best recievers in NFL history in Mark Clayton and Mark Duper for most of his career......guess thats why Marinos passing numbers are so "padded"! Who was carrying who on whos back?

1984 season the Dolphins started the season 11-0....went on to the Superbowl against the 49'ers and I remember watching that one well....the great Marino was anemic! He could not start a fire with a flamethrower that day......I remember he looked so nervous and flustered in that one. He had a team that season every bit as good as SF and he lost because he could not beat the best. (Period)

For the record....I am not knocking Marino as a quarterback, simply trying to make my point to Ron that Marino failed to get it done.

There are great quarterbacks....like Marino, who have all the passing records and numbers and such.....but no ring.

Then there is the best quarterback....Montana, who has some of the best passing stats of any quarterback ever, holds just as many records as Marino and his career numbers are almost as good......difference is he has 4 rings on his finger....he earned them......he was the coolest ever under pressure and handled a two minute offense better than any other quarterback ever has.....and that was the one thing Marino did not possess.......coolness under pressure!

BigFish · 01-03-2005, 10:31 PM

VF...you can't be a great quarterback after only 12 games and no Superbowl appearances......I was simply using the QB rating to make my point.

Anyone who tells me that Brady is not a great Quarterback will be considered a fool in my book!

Bledsoe, with all the "numbers" talent in the world with almost the same team and coaching could not get it done! Brady did....twice! And he ain't done yet my friends not by a longshot! He is the only other QB I have ever seen as cool in the pocket as Montana.....how many other "decent" quarterbacks have 2 Superbowl rings and MVP awards? How many great quarterbacks have 2 Superbowl rings and 2 MVP awards? Riddle me that Batman!

TheSpecialist · 01-03-2005, 10:54 PM

I bow to you master of the pigskin.....

Vectorfisher · 01-04-2005, 07:54 AM

Ahh BF let's face it Brady is good not great

afterhours · 01-04-2005, 08:15 AM

two super bowl wins, two super bowl mvp's, 6-0 record in post season. brady's record speaks for itself. ( not to mention 31-4 and counting in past two seasons ).

The Dad Fisherman · 01-04-2005, 08:22 AM

I think you guys are confusing Talent with Greatness. A Great Quarterback is presented w/ an oppportunity in the face of great adversity and rises to the occasion. A talented Quarterback just keeps putting up numbers.

For this reason Peyton Manning should not be considered as a Great QB. He has been presented with great opportunities but has done nothing w/ them. Until he does he is just a VERY VERY talented QB.

Same w/ Marino, The guy was the most talented QB to ever play the game but Greatest? You need to rise up and Take charge of the opportunities presented to you....he didn't

Say what you want about Brady, but he was given an opportunity 3 seasons ago and grabbed it and took his team to a championship....and he did it in the final seconds of the superbowl.....twice as a matter of fact.

Montana has done that too. he was presented w/ an opportunity and he shined.

It doen't matter what your season long stats are, it matters what you do at the moment of truth that dictates your greatness. Until Peyton wins the big one and rises to the occasion he can't be considered one of the greatest. He DID orchestrate the greatest season by a QB though.

There that should ad some fuel to the fire

BigFish · 01-04-2005, 08:36 AM

TDF....you absolutely encapsulated the very essence of what greatness means....though the few here who are bitter because the Patriots sit upon the top of the football world will never give in to simple reasoning.

Your definition is perfect, logical, and reasonable. I am done trying to teach the blind to see....for they can't!

Maybe one more Superbowl win and they will be unable to deny what is fact!

afterhours · 01-04-2005, 08:47 AM

well said TFD!!

Mike P · 01-04-2005, 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Raider Ronnie
I think James is MUCH overated,

OK, so that means he's among the AFC leaders in rushing because he has a great O-line opening the holes for him, right?

Which might also explain why Peyton doesn't get sacked a lot and has time to set up and throw, right?

So--is Peyton carrying the whole team on his back

BigFish · 01-04-2005, 09:35 AM

Lets pig-pile on Raider Ron!

Vectorfisher · 01-04-2005, 03:54 PM

Ok so if then Ben R takes the Steelers to the bowl and wins he is GREATER than Brady, Montana and all the others because he didnt lose a single game and went into the superbowl and won???? WHy not say he is the greatest if he accomplishes this because is there anyone that has done this?

afterhours · 01-04-2005, 04:41 PM

VF- how can you compare ben to montana, brady, and all the others

you got the good stuff?

BigFish · 01-04-2005, 04:54 PM

Ben might....and I say "might" just be a flash in the pan...lets see him play like Brady has his first 3 years, put up the same numbers Brady has and win 2 Superbowl rings and 2 Superbowl MVP awards like Brady has and then we can talk about how "great" Ben is!

Can't you see how uneven the scales are VF?

Brady has been here and Ben just got here....that is all the difference we need to talk about right now!

afterhours · 01-04-2005, 04:59 PM

ther's no doubt that ben is having an excellent rookie year. he's showing a lot of POTENTIONAL not greatness. like BF said - let's talk after 3 years.

Vectorfisher · 01-04-2005, 05:04 PM

My comments were based on TDF's post about talent and greatness

Raider Ronnie · 01-04-2005, 06:56 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Dad Fisherman
[B]I think you guys are confusing Talent with Greatness. A Great Quarterback is presented w/ an oppportunity in the face of great adversity and rises to the occasion. A talented Quarterback just keeps putting up numbers.

For this reason Peyton Manning should not be considered as a Great QB. He has been presented with great opportunities but has done nothing w/ them. Until he does he is just a VERY VERY talented QB.

Same w/ Marino, The guy was the most talented QB to ever play the game but Greatest? You need to rise up and Take charge of the opportunities presented to you....he didn't

Say what you want about Brady, but he was given an opportunity 3 seasons ago and grabbed it and took his team to a championship....and he did it in the final seconds of the superbowl.....twice as a matter of fact.

Montana has done that too. he was presented w/ an opportunity and he shined.

It doen't matter what your season long stats are, it matters what you do at the moment of truth that dictates your greatness. Until Peyton wins the big one and rises to the occasion he can't be considered one of the greatest. He DID orchestrate the greatest season by a QB though.

Well put!!!
But,
Being surrounded with talent allows you to "Rise to the occasion)

BigFish · 01-04-2005, 07:06 PM

Oh please.....just another excuse monger!

I don't know any quarterbacks Ron that have won a single game all by themselves!

Give up the props already.

Any quarterback has won because he has a good supporting cast to one degree or the other.

The Dad Fisherman · 01-05-2005, 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Vectorfisher
Ok so if then Ben R takes the Steelers to the bowl and wins he is GREATER than Brady, Montana and all the others because he didnt lose a single game and went into the superbowl and won???? WHy not say he is the greatest if he accomplishes this because is there anyone that has done this?

I don't think it makes him the GREATEST....but its a hell of a start. He pulls off a few of these during his career and you can start throwing around his name w/ montana.

Its definitely the greatest Rookie performance IF he pulls it off (Lets not put the cart before the horse). And he also needs to be one of the reasons they win the superbowl......handing off to the "Bus" doesn't qualify you as a great QB.

15 games does not constitute a career either. he needs a little longevity.

You have to remember he didn't just lead his team to the superbowl...he was the MVP of both of them. Last year the Pats leading rusher had only 600+ yards...yet they won 14 in a row enroute to winning the superbowl, a lot of which was on Brady's arm.

I don't think Brady is one of the greatest ever....yet....but he is definitely well on his way. Once he wins another....Superbowl....that will pretty much do it

Basically........Big Ben can never be considered greater than Brady until he has MORE than 2 rings and 2 MVP's.....thats just basic logic right there

Vectorfisher · 01-05-2005, 12:52 PM

<<Basically........Big Ben can never be considered greater than Brady until he has MORE than 2 rings and 2 MVP's.....thats just basic logic right there>>

TDF I totally disagree!! That is crap just because Brady was fortunate enough to fall into the right team/coaching staff and get by in 2 superbowls wins that another Quarterbacl can ever be considered better, BULLSHEEET so you are saying Marino wasn't better than Brady????? You need your head examined for that analogy

The Dad Fisherman · 01-05-2005, 02:10 PM

As far as I'm concerned he is........Marino was one of the Most Talented to play the game but the Greatest??? Its all up to interpretation. Which would you...as a fan... rather have on your team, A Record Breaker or a Superbowl Winner? I know which one I want.

And Brady didn't actually "Get By" in 2 superbowls. he ran the 2 minute drill to WIN both superbowls. A little different. I also said I don't consider Brady great....yet. The only reason I made that statement was because you seem to already have Big Ben enshrined in Canton....

Oh and I used to have my head examined on a weekly basis.....but the bartenders insisted that I tip them better if i was going to continue my therapy.

Ahhhh Playoff Time

BigFish · 01-05-2005, 02:36 PM

Montana shattered records and won the ring 4 times.....he is a lock in my mind for the greatest ever!

Vectorfisher · 01-05-2005, 04:07 PM

TDF you must be misreading all of my posts because I have said more than once I do not think he is a great Quarterback he still has much to prove, however you cannot takeaway the fact he is setting records and has had a phenomenal season to date.

BigFish · 01-05-2005, 05:44 PM

Big Ben had a phenominal season without a doubt.....and outside of beating the Patriots, I wish him well and can't wait to see what his future holds.

You got a diamond in the rough VF....just a little more seasoning and he may just be a full blown "GEM"!

And hey...what if Ben caps his season with a ring? I hope the Pats win of course but if he did do that......he will be on his way to greatness.

28inches · 01-05-2005, 07:55 PM

Montana's got the four rings, but Unitas called his own plays. That's gotta count for something. Tonite, I'm saying Johny U is the greatest ever...next time I think about it, I'll pick Montana.