Burning the Koran

[JohnR]

Yeh, within the letter of the law he might be legal, hence the current predicament. Funny (not really) how the Taliban can murder young girls going to school and state religous views support such unconscionable acts yet burn a book ??

Religion of peace my arse. I would like to see / hear / read more serious denunciation of the acts of Al Quaeda by prominent Islamic leaders but we don't really get that now do we.

Still, the stupidity of this burning is enormous. And it will cost lives. And it is wholly unnecessary and stupid.

I do, however, reserve the right to draw Mohammed.














:raiders:

[RIJIMMY]

the saddest part of all of this to me is that the "main" reason most feel its a bad idea is because we "fear" that muslims will retaliate and somehow hurt innocent people or our troops. That stands against everything I believe. You may think this pastor is a wacko - but the REAL reason Americans have fought and died is for freedom and our constitutional rights. Americans should not fear retaliation for individual actions they perform under the law. IMHO - fear is all the terrorists have, and if we give into it, they win.
They won with the Dutch newspaper, they won in Spain (train bombing/Iraq pullout).

Ask yourself, do you truly beleive in this - ""I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it,"

Isnt that what makes our country great?

[The Dad Fisherman]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

the saddest part of all of this to me is that the "main" reason most feel its a bad idea is because we "fear" that muslims will retaliate and somehow hurt innocent people or our troops. That stands against everything I believe. You may think this pastor is a wacko - but the REAL reason Americans have fought and died is for freedom and our constitutional rights. Americans should not fear retaliation for individual actions they perform under the law. IMHO - fear is all the terrorists have, and if we give into it, they win.
They won with the Dutch newspaper, they won in Spain (train bombing/Iraq pullout).

Ask yourself, do you truly beleive in this - ""I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it,"

Isnt that what makes our country great?

I can agree with this....but on the flip side if some Muslim Whacko puts a bullet in his head after he does this...I'm really not going to shed any tears for this guy............and his family (well, maybe his kids).

I always tell my kids that they have choices...some good, some bad. With every choice you make comes an action, make good choices and the action usually is a good one. Make bad choices and its probably going to be a bad action....but its your choice.....make it and be willing to deal w/ what comes afterwards.

This guy is choosing to burn the Quran...have a ball. But if you get terrorized, beaten or Killed because of YOUR choice....don't come whining to me about it.

People get beaten and/or killed here in the USA every day for antagonizing the wrong person(s) for stupid reasons....

here's a match buddy......knock your self out.

[RIJIMMY]

[QUOTE=.

This guy is choosing to burn the Quran...have a ball. But if you get terrorized, beaten or Killed because of YOUR choice....don't come whining to me about it.

.[/QUOTE]

arent we sworn as a nation to protect him and uphold the constitution?
Some people choose to vote.
Some people choose to pray.
Some people choose to write inflamatory articles.
Some people choose to protest.
All protected.
this guy has a guaranteed right by the constiution and the president is sworn to uphold it.
this is tough stuff, but I think this is why he is doing it. Who do we as a country stand with, him for exercising his right or for foreign nations and/or extremists? I think the answer is a tough one, but I dont feel there is any room for debate.

[The Dad Fisherman]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

arent we sworn as a nation to protect him and uphold the constitution?

Yep, we are......

Now if a guy waltz's into Harlem and starts screaming the "N" word.....and he gets his ass kicked. Does he have the same right to be protected under the constitution....sure he does.....did he get what he deserved for being a friggin moron.......sure he did.

When do we start screaming about all the tax dollars being spent on protecting people who are doing stupid things......ya know....all this protection does cost money.

[RIJIMMY]

Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman

Yep, we are......

Now if a guy waltz's into Harlem and starts screaming the "N" word.....and he gets his ass kicked. Does he have the same right to be protected under the constitution....sure he does.....did he get what he deserved for being a friggin moron.......sure he did.

When do we start screaming about all the tax dollars being spent on protecting people who are doing stupid things......ya know....all this protection does cost money.

I agree, in the koran case, Im looking at it in a different light since its international pressure and potential international threats. If american muslims beat the crap out of him, they'd be wrong but I would feel better about it.

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

Ask yourself, do you truly beleive in this - ""I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it,"

Isnt that what makes our country great?

I posted that quote last week and had just come into this thread to post it again.

His actions are protected by the Constitution, plain and simple.

If people want to start squashing people's protected rights because the actions are offensive, let's start with those di%&#eads from the Westboro Baptist Church.

[RIJIMMY]

oh boy - just read CNN and looks like once again the Big O let me down.

I love this -
Pakistani President Asif Ali Zardari said anyone who thought of such a despicable act must be suffering from a diseased mind and a sickly soul, said spokesman Farhatullah Babar.

Zardari said it will inflame sentiments among Muslims throughout the world and cause irreparable damage to interfaith harmony and world peace.

All because someone burned a book? So spence - tell me how I dont understand muslims? Based on the above, they are superstitious, uncivilized religious wackos. Sorry, they only lose respect from me the more I learn. Im going to have a cheesburger at lunch, I really hope it doesnt disturb world peace when I insult the hindus!

[spence]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

All because someone burned a book? So spence - tell me how I dont understand muslims? Based on the above, they are superstitious, uncivilized religious wackos. Sorry, they only lose respect from me the more I learn. Im going to have a cheesburger at lunch, I really hope it doesnt disturb world peace when I insult the hindus!

I thinking you're making a gross generalization.

There are a lot of Muslims in the US and other parts of the World that while disgusted aren't going to pick up arms over this.

The issue is, and has always been, the areas where mainstream meets the fringe that feed extremism. Often this is in poor areas, although that doesn't mean the interests of the impoverished are limited just to the poor. There's certainly is a lot of mistrust of the West in many Islamic nations, which from a certain perspective on many issues is understandable.

Actions that reinforce this mistrust will almost certainly be used to stoke the flames by the fringe to embolden their position. Even many moderates will be let down by the perceived affront. Hence my comment earlier about the Chinese Finger Trap.

Does this mean we should be held captive by political correctness?

Absolutely not, but it also means we shouldn't loose sight of common sense either. A "stunt" such as this has no real value but has the potential to cause real harm. It's a shame that the story was ever covered in the first place. Let the bigots bask in their hate and it would have all passed over.

But the genie is out of the lamp and it must be addressed.

-spence

[RIJIMMY]

Originally Posted by spence

I thinking you're making a gross generalization.

There are a lot of Muslims in the US and other parts of the World that while disgusted aren't going to pick up arms over this.

The issue is, and has always been, the areas where mainstream meets the fringe that feed extremism. Often this is in poor areas, although that doesn't mean the interests of the impoverished are limited just to the poor. There's certainly is a lot of mistrust of the West in many Islamic nations, which from a certain perspective on many issues is understandable.

Actions that reinforce this mistrust will almost certainly be used to stoke the flames by the fringe to embolden their position. Even many moderates will be let down by the perceived affront. Hence my comment earlier about the Chinese Finger Trap.

Does this mean we should be held captive by political correctness?

Absolutely not, but it also means we shouldn't loose sight of common sense either. A "stunt" such as this has no real value but has the potential to cause real harm. It's a shame that the story was ever covered in the first place. Let the bigots bask in their hate and it would have all passed over.

But the genie is out of the lamp and it must be addressed.

-spence

you're wrong ( again)

- "You could have serious violence in places like Pakistan or Afghanistan" as a result of the proposal by the Gainesville, Florida-based Dove World Outreach Center, Obama said on ABC's "Good Morning America."

- The diplomat warned that if Florida Pastor Terry Jones goes ahead with his plans to burn copies of the Quran, it will set off a massive reaction in parts of the Muslim world.


- Hundreds of angry Afghans burned an American flag and chanted "Death to the Christians" on Thursday to protest plans by a small American church to torch copies of the Muslim holy book on the anniversary of the Sept. 11 terror attacks.

- "If Quran is burned it would be beginning of destruction of America," read one English-language banner held up by the protesters, who chanted "Down with America!"

- Iran's Foreign Minister Manouchehr Mottaki also warned of repercussions, saying the burning would "face reactions by the world's Muslims as well as followers of other religions," according to the official IRNA news agency.


gross generalization Spence?

[spence]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

you're wrong ( again)

- "You could have serious violence in places like Pakistan or Afghanistan" as a result of the proposal by the Gainesville, Florida-based Dove World Outreach Center, Obama said on ABC's "Good Morning America."

- The diplomat warned that if Florida Pastor Terry Jones goes ahead with his plans to burn copies of the Quran, it will set off a massive reaction in parts of the Muslim world.


- Hundreds of angry Afghans burned an American flag and chanted "Death to the Christians" on Thursday to protest plans by a small American church to torch copies of the Muslim holy book on the anniversary of the Sept. 11 terror attacks.

- "If Quran is burned it would be beginning of destruction of America," read one English-language banner held up by the protesters, who chanted "Down with America!"

- Iran's Foreign Minister Manouchehr Mottaki also warned of repercussions, saying the burning would "face reactions by the world's Muslims as well as followers of other religions," according to the official IRNA news agency.


gross generalization Spence?

Yes, gross generalizations.

You're talking about small groups of people, you're talking about signs in "English" intended for Western media consumption, and you're talking about an Iranian government employee who's going to stirr the pot as only Iranians can.

Certainly some will use the event for violence, but most likely this would be driven by those intending violence regardless...like the Taliban fighting US Troops.

We'd see demonstrations (hell, we already are) but again these are usually orchestrated and often contrived. Do the people feel passionate about it? Sure, but again, there's already resentment towards the West that this feeds into.

Think of them like a Glenn Beck rally.

-spence

[buckman]

Hell even South Park caved in like pussies.

[RIJIMMY]

we have thriving US Nazi groups - Is Israel chanting death to america?
We eat beef - are Hindus rioting in protest?
We have satanic churches - Is the Vatican threatening retaliation?

We are only worried about offending one religious group. Why? They blow themselves up and they behead people. Thats nuts.

[spence]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

We are only worried about offending one religious group. Why? They blow themselves up and they behead people. Thats nuts.

Because we're at war in two Islamic nations, Islamic nations are in proximity to many of the World's hot spots, Islamic nations hold much of the Global energy reserves and Islamic nations suffer from a lot of poverty and political oppression.

Geopolitcs have evolved for this to be the case, and we're a big player in the production.

This isn't rocket science.

-spence

[likwid]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

we have thriving US Nazi groups - Is Israel chanting death to america?

Only because we provide billions to them in funding do they not.

We eat beef - are Hindus rioting in protest?

They're too busy minding their own business. You know, what we should have been doing all along...

We have satanic churches - Is the Vatican threatening retaliation?

The Vatican really doesn't care about other religions. They're only concerned with their own and their kiddie touchers.

[Nebe]

One would think that when we say we are right and they are wrong, that by buring a bunch of copies of the koran, we are lowering ourselves right down to their level..

The guy who is doing this is what i would think we can safely call a religious extremist.

[RIJIMMY]

read this -

Press review: Who will stop 'crazy' Quran-burning priest? - CNN.com

You have to laugh. Spence/Likwid and others here is the "problem" in black and white. Muslim press/nations equating the killings, suicide bombings, and other terrorist acts with a guy burning a book. There saying he is an extremist and just as bad as their extremists.

[spence]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

read this -

Press review: Who will stop 'crazy' Quran-burning priest? - CNN.com

You have to laugh. Spence/Likwid and others here is the "problem" in black and white. Muslim press/nations equating the killings, suicide bombings, and other terrorist acts with a guy burning a book. There saying he is an extremist and just as bad as their extremists.

Remember, they're also pandering to their audience just like our media does.

-spence

[fishbones]

Originally Posted by spence

Remember, they're also pandering to their audience just like our media does.

-spence

Hey Spence. Are you gonna fish at all this fall? You owe me a plug and I was hoping to get it from you in person. Put down the bottles and binky's and grab your gear. I'll get RIJimmy to come too. If the fishing is bad, you can at least try hitting on him again.

[spence]

Originally Posted by fishbones

Hey Spence. Are you gonna fish at all this fall? You owe me a plug and I was hoping to get it from you in person. Put down the bottles and binky's and grab your gear. I'll get RIJimmy to come too. If the fishing is bad, you can at least try hitting on him again.

Already plotting, I agree a joint trip should be in order...land or sea.

-spence

[The Dad Fisherman]

I would classify him more as a Reality TV Star than an Extremist......just looking for his 15 minutes.

[buckman]

Breaking News.... Imam agrees to move mosque and Pastor calls off book burning.

[spence]

Originally Posted by buckman

Breaking News.... Imam agrees to move mosque and Pastor calls off book burning.

Buck, not breaking news...multiple news sources already reporting the Iman says it's all BS.

My guess is the FL pastor is playing games to try and come out ahead. And to think all this grandstanding is just adding fuel to the fire...

Buck, your buddy sure is a real low life.

-spence

[buckman]

Originally Posted by spence

Buck, not breaking news...multiple news sources already reporting the Iman says it's all BS.

My guess is the FL pastor is playing games to try and come out ahead. And to think all this grandstanding is just adding fuel to the fire...

Buck, your buddy sure is a real low life.

-spence

I know it's BS Spence. CNN, my go to news network, had it as "Breaking News".
Besides....Never trust an Imam

Which buddy? I have so many low life friends your going to have to name names.

[RIJIMMY]

I agree, this "stunt" once again showed the muslims true colors. Been saying that this whole thread. Barbaric religious uncivilized loons. But that will be lost to most as they focus on the crazy pastorn not the WORLDWIDE reaction. Our secretary of defense call him, the president pleads with him. The mightiest nation in the world bows to islamic fear. Osama, you've won.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[spence]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

The mightiest nation in the world bows to islamic fear. Osama, you've won.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

It's not about bowing in fear, it's about staying true to who we say we are.

This entire stunt with the pastor was such a big deal only because it came on the heels of the Islamic Cultural Center controversy in New York. That was only such a big deal because people are exploiting fear of Islam for political gain.

We can have free speech in the country and let the crazies be crazies without it being a problem. But when the Right Wing is acting like MSG, primarily to serve their own interests, then they infringe on all our rights.

Sure, we have the right to ask for responsibility from Muslims abroad, but who are we to ask if we can't even practice what we preach?

Pretty soon you're going to see the fringe Right blaming Islam for all our ills. I can see it forming as we speak.

-spence

[buckman]

Originally Posted by spence

It's not about bowing in fear, it's about staying true to who we say we are.

This entire stunt with the pastor was such a big deal only because it came on the heels of the Islamic Cultural Center controversy in New York. That was only such a big deal because people are exploiting fear of Islam for political gain.

We can have free speech in the country and let the crazies be crazies without it being a problem. But when the Right Wing is acting like MSG, primarily to serve their own interests, then they infringe on all our rights.

Sure, we have the right to ask for responsibility from Muslims abroad, but who are we to ask if we can't even practice what we preach?

Pretty soon you're going to see the fringe Right blaming Islam for all our ills. I can see it forming as we speak.

-spence

This is not about the "fringe Right". You really are clueless.

[spence]

Originally Posted by buckman

This is not about the "fringe Right". You really are clueless.

And you don't read. Remember what happened last time when you didn't read?

The scary part is you have fringes on both sides influencing a good part of the middle. They're going to lead everyone to war before you know it.

-spence

[scottw]

Originally Posted by spence

It's not about bowing in fear, it's about staying true to who we say we are.

This entire stunt with the pastor was such a big deal only because it came on the heels of the Islamic Cultural Center controversy(oh, no...he could have done this anytime and the examples above prove the reaction would be similar) in New York. That was only such a big deal because people are exploiting fear of Islam for political gain. based on what is evident worldwide and the very open threats when Islam doesn't get it way..should we not fear?
We can have free speech in the country and let the crazies be crazies without it being a problem. But when the Right Wing is acting like MSG, primarily to serve their own interests, then they infringe on all our rights. mono sodium glutomate?

Sure, we have the right to ask for responsibility from Muslims abroad, but who are we to ask if we can't even practice what we preach? where exactly have we not practiced what we preached, for the millionth time, noone has said he couldn't build the GZ Mosque only that he shouldn't build it there...I think like 80% of Americans and a large majority of New Yorkers...wow...the crazy Right Wing has really expanded

Pretty soon you're going to see the fringe Right blaming Islam for all our ills. I can see it forming as we speak.currently the oppsite is true, at least according to Rauf
-spence

you obviously can't hold all muslims as violent but a quick look around the globe show far more than a just tiny minority of radicals causing the trouble, just as Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton have claimed to speak for the black community, Rauf claims to speak for the muslim community and he nothing but a two faced weasel who works shady deals and uses fear, racism and demands for tolerance to further his agenda...hope he continues to do interviews...IT'S GREAT WHEN "MODERATE MUSLIMS" SUGGEST THAT VIOLENCE WILL OCCUR FROM "RADICAL MUSLIMS" IF THE "MODERATE MUSLIMS" DON'T GET WHAT THEY WANT

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by spence

It's not about bowing in fear, it's about staying true to who we say we are.

There are different "we" with different opinions of who we are. "We" don't have as unified opinion of who we are as the opinion Muslims, aparently, have of who we are.

This entire stunt with the pastor was such a big deal only because it came on the heels of the Islamic Cultural Center controversy in New York. That was only such a big deal because people are exploiting fear of Islam for political gain.

Politicians for or against the mosque can be accused of exploiting both controversies for political gain. But that would be a gross generalization. And the pastor's stunt could well have been an Alinskyish tactic of provoking the enemy into its typical peaceful behavior of rioting or killing.

We can have free speech in the country and let the crazies be crazies without it being a problem. But when the Right Wing is acting like MSG, primarily to serve their own interests, then they infringe on all our rights.

Wow! Talk about gross generalizations!

Sure, we have the right to ask for responsibility from Muslims abroad, but who are we to ask if we can't even practice what we preach?

What is it, again, that we are supposedly preaching?

Pretty soon you're going to see the fringe Right blaming Islam for all our ills. I can see it forming as we speak.
-spence

Gee Spence, for someone who is as familiar and approbative of Alinsky tactics as you are, how do you fail to see how Obama's team have infiltrated the fringe right, posing as right wingers blaming Islam for all our ills instead of blaming Obama?