Help me find answers to this scenario

[zimmy]

Originally Posted by Clammer

JL
I was also @ the meeting & a commercial R/R ask the person from the DEm if the they or the state or anyone /anywhere has evidence to back this up .
She said of all the studies & testing that has been done .............. the only harmful chemical that is coming up in fish is mercury ..........zero on lead, iron, etc ?????????????

Mercury is a chronic bioaccumulation, biomagnification issue. The coat hanger, and ingested lead for that matter, are accute threats. I can supply a veterinarian who can testify what a coat hanger does to the digestive tract of vertebrates. Would that help this committee ? The tests have not been done specifically on striped-bass with those quantities of lead digested, because you would have to capture those specific fish from the wild, which is nearly impossible or set up a controlled experiment where they are fed yo-yo rigged bait. There is plenty of scientific data of the effect of lead on vertebrates. Yo-yoing is for people with short rods.

[zimmy]

Originally Posted by tlapinski

Is there scientific data available which shows how long lead must be inside the stomach of a fish, bird or human before enough lead is absorbed into the bloodstream to become lethal?

Absorption rates in humans are known A child in Oregon died of lead poisoning within four days of swallowing a necklace that contained lead. He had syptoms within 24 hours.
In children, up to 50% of ingested lead may be absorbed (see Grant, L.D. (2009). "Lead and compounds". In Lippmann, M.. Environmental Toxicants: Human Exposures and Their Health Effects (3rd ed.). Wiley-Interscience. ISBN 0-471-79335-3).

LD50 of lead is known for many fish, birds, etc. Given the digestive system in fish, the lead is not going to pass through the digestive tract and will stay in the fish to be continually absorbed. The amount of lead in a fish that eats yoyo'd bait is going to kill most of them. I don't have any idea how many people yoyo or how many baits come free, so I can't guess how much of an issue it is for the overall population. Maybe I kill just as many fish by catch and release mortality as a person who yoyo's for meat, I don't know.

[tlapinski]

Originally Posted by zimmy

Absorption rates in humans are known A child in Oregon died of lead poisoning within four days of swallowing a necklace that contained lead. He had syptoms within 24 hours.
In children, up to 50% of ingested lead may be absorbed (see Grant, L.D. (2009). "Lead and compounds". In Lippmann, M.. Environmental Toxicants: Human Exposures and Their Health Effects (3rd ed.). Wiley-Interscience. ISBN 0-471-79335-3).

LD50 of lead is known for many fish, birds, etc. Given the digestive system in fish, the lead is not going to pass through the digestive tract and will stay in the fish to be continually absorbed. The amount of lead in a fish that eats yoyo'd bait is going to kill most of them. I don't have any idea how many people yoyo or how many baits come free, so I can't guess how much of an issue it is for the overall population. Maybe I kill just as many fish by catch and release mortality as a person who yoyo's for meat, I don't know.

Thanks! Now I am trying to recall if I ever ingested any split shot when I was younger figuring it would just pass right on through. Maybe the fact that I can't remember is a sign...

[SBASS1]

Eel-Bob?

[smac]

Originally Posted by DZ

Scenario: You’ve discovered a new and very effective method of taking large striped bass which requires you to add foreign/toxic substances into the natural bait you are using. Without adding them your secret bait will not work. Only problem is that these added substances can be very harmful, if not fatal, to bass, other fish, and wildlife that happen to eat your secret bait should it come off your hook or you happen to drop the bait overboard. Undersize bass or legal bass that you plan on releasing will also suffer or potentially perish if they've already ingested the bait. You’re now caught in a dilemma: do you continue to use this method to catch more bass than you ever have knowing that you might be causing collateral damage or by-kill to other wildlife, or do you give it up and go back to other less effective methods you’ve used in the past that produce less by-kill. What would you do?

No. Never tried yo-yoing. Never felt the need to learn and try it. Dont you know that fish practically jump in the boat out here.

[Jackbass]

If there is no science backing it up by can't bird hunters use lead shot?
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[PRBuzz]

"the authors said that numerous studies already documented adverse effects to wildlife, especially waterbirds and scavenging species, like hawks and eagles. Lead exposure from ingested lead shot, bullets, and fishing sinkers also has been reported in reptiles, and studies near shooting ranges have shown evidence of lead poisoning in small mammals.

Although fish ingest sinkers, jigs, and hooks, mortality in fish seems to be related to injury, blood loss, exposure to air and exhaustion rather than the lead toxicity that affects warm-blooded species."

USGS Release: Lead Shot and Sinkers: Weighty Implications for Fish and Wildlife Health (7/11/2008 11:29:09 AM)

[MAKAI]

I stopped fishing any method that had a high rate of gut hooking years ago. Just felt like the right thing to do. Seemed googan like tossing back bleeders.
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[zimmy]

Originally Posted by PRBuzz

"

Although fish ingest sinkers, jigs, and hooks, mortality in fish seems to be related to injury, blood loss, exposure to air and exhaustion rather than the lead toxicity that affects warm-blooded species."

USGS Release: Lead Shot and Sinkers: Weighty Implications for Fish and Wildlife Health (7/11/2008 11:29:09 AM)

I read the technical report so I could see what precipitated the above statement. http://wdfw.wa.gov/conservation/loon...eview_lead.pdf

Two things:

The studies in the technical report do not indicate that lead is non-toxic in fish. Studies of fish mortality have found injuries from catching and handling do kill fish. That is not the same as lead does not kill fish. The above statement implies that cold-blooded organisms are not affected by lead like warm blooded, but I can't find anything implicit in the report to support that, though I may have missed it.

The report lists many studies that show that ingested lead accumulates in the organs and tissues of fish that have ingested it and that there are morphological changes associated with it.

[CowHunter]

You see the Yo-Yoing topic bought up so many times on how it "hurts" the fish and how it should be banned, yet this method is only effective in such a small area targeting structure oriented fish only in certain conditions. It is limited to boat fishing only. The amount of people actually fishing this method and being effective at it is minuscule and those that are effective have every intention of killing the fish they catch. If there is so much concern of "hurting" these fish why do you never, ever see any talk of banning "snagging hooks"??? They are trebble hooks with a hunk of lead all in one! The "snagg and drop" method is used by thousands, and thousands of bouth shorebound and boat anglers! The method is used from as far north as the pogie swims to as far south as the pogie swims! The angler casts and rips the "snagging" hook through schools of pogies. There is no consideration to the collateral harm that it causes pogies, blues, bass, and other species of fish, sometimes mammal as the snagging hook cuts deep into them only to cause infection later. Eventually one of these pogies will become "snagged" then dropped, and then a fish, preferably a large bass will eat it! The angler will wait till the predatory fish has the snagged bunker deep, deep in the gut before sticking them with all their might! The fish is then dragged in and onto the beach or boat. Once in the angler kills the fish or if the fish is not to liking cut the line and release the fish because it is easier to retie a new rig or dig into the fishes gut, make a bloody mess, salvage the snagging hook and either way release it only to repeat the process.
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[Sea Flat]

I still come back to the fact that it is possible to yo-yo effectively without using all of that dangerous crap. There is plenty of info out there about how to do it, perhaps the best of both worlds for those that like the method and find it successful.

[striper junkie]

Am I the only person who doesn't know what yo yo ing is? I've heard the term many times before, but could someone give a quik overview of what it entails?
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[piemma]

Originally Posted by striper junkie

Am I the only person who doesn't know what yo yo ing is? I've heard the term many times before, but could someone give a quik overview of what it entails?
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I'm not going to get into details because it's like showing you how to shoot dope.

It's deadly.

You weight a pogie with a lead or an old spark plug. You do some other stuff and then you hook it in back of the dorsal fin. You have to be on a boat. You drop in straight down and..... get the picture.

[thefishingfreak]

Funny how all the fish caught with lead in there belly are still alive, until they are killed another way. How many fish are caught with plugs hanging out of their face? Or like was mentioned snag hooks on there bellys? Snag-drop-snap" line breaks. Ohh well tie on another snag hook on and rip it again.

It's on the books in Mass now that all the "gear" must be attached to the mainline. Problem (or complaints of a problem) solved.
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[robc22]

Originally Posted by thefishingfreak

Funny how all the fish caught with lead in there belly are still alive, until they are killed another way. How many fish are caught with plugs hanging out of their face? Or like was mentioned snag hooks on there bellys? Snag-drop-snap" line breaks. Ohh well tie on another snag hook on and rip it again.

It's on the books in Mass now that all the "gear" must be attached to the mainline. Problem (or complaints of a problem) solved.
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+1

[fcap60]

For me, this is easy.

I would not use the harmful secret bait

[zimmy]

Originally Posted by thefishingfreak

Funny how all the fish caught with lead in there belly are still alive,
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I think it would be funnier if we caught dead fish .

[Swimmer]

I never lost a fish yo yo'ing, never. Everytime I did fish this way was on a comm. license a buddy of mine held. I have never ever cut a fish open that I caught surf fishing that I filleted that I ever found lead in its gullet either. So it either isn't being done that often, or when it is done it is very effective and the angler lands the fish, or its doesn't kill the fish who ate the lead. After all how many floaters do any of us see? Anyone can query a post that I did here that explains it in a finite manner. I did yo yo in the canal once, but I got really tired trying to hold bottom, using 14 #'s of lead weight, standing in the middle of the railroad bridge using a spiral wrapped boat rod.