No mental health issue in america.

[Pete F.]

1967 – Jayne Mansfield is killed when her car runs under the rear end of a tractor trailer. Since then, all trailers have a DOT bar at the rear to keep cars from going under them.
1982 – Seven people die when Tylenol packaging was tampered with. Since then, it takes a PhD, channel locks, and a sharp object to get into a bottle of pills.
2001 – One person attempts to blow up a plane with a shoe bomb. Since then, all air travelers have to take off their shoes for scanning before being allowed to board.
Since 1968 – 1,516, 863 people die from guns on American soil. Since then, the problem apparently can’t be solved except with thoughts and prayers. AND JU$T WHY DO YOU THINK THI$ I$???

[PaulS]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

Since 1968 – 1,516, 863 people die from guns on American soil. Since then, the problem apparently can’t be solved except with thoughts and prayers. AND JU$T WHY DO YOU THINK THI$ I$???

That comment and reading others after every shooting like this remind of the Onion headline a few months ago which was something like

"Mass shootings can't be stopped says the only nation to have mass shootings"

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

1967 – Jayne Mansfield is killed when her car runs under the rear end of a tractor trailer. Since then, all trailers have a DOT bar at the rear to keep cars from going under them.
1982 – Seven people die when Tylenol packaging was tampered with. Since then, it takes a PhD, channel locks, and a sharp object to get into a bottle of pills.
2001 – One person attempts to blow up a plane with a shoe bomb. Since then, all air travelers have to take off their shoes for scanning before being allowed to board.
Since 1968 – 1,516, 863 people die from guns on American soil. Since then, the problem apparently can’t be solved except with thoughts and prayers. AND JU$T WHY DO YOU THINK THI$ I$???

C'mon man . . . you keep trotting out small selective lists of statistics out of the millions of stats as if that was supposed to give us a hint on the easy solution to something that doesn't even meaningfully relate to other things which are not difficult to fix. making cars safer, commercial flying, making pill bottles tamper proof don't necessarily correlate to murder. What's the easy solution to stop some crazy person from driving his truck into a crowd of people? How do you stop an airplane pilot from deliberately crashing his plane? How do you stop someone from overdosing on pills?

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

1967 – Jayne Mansfield is killed when her car runs under the rear end of a tractor trailer. Since then, all trailers have a DOT bar at the rear to keep cars from going under them.
1982 – Seven people die when Tylenol packaging was tampered with. Since then, it takes a PhD, channel locks, and a sharp object to get into a bottle of pills.
2001 – One person attempts to blow up a plane with a shoe bomb. Since then, all air travelers have to take off their shoes for scanning before being allowed to board.
Since 1968 – 1,516, 863 people die from guns on American soil. Since then, the problem apparently can’t be solved except with thoughts and prayers. AND JU$T WHY DO YOU THINK THI$ I$???

"AND JU$T WHY DO YOU THINK THI$ I$???[/"

Because like it or not, nowhere in the constitution does it say pill bottles must be easy to open, nor does it say you cannot be asked to take your shoes off at the airport. But it does say something about the right to keep and bear arms not being infringed. We don't get to ignore the parts of the constitution we don't happen to like at the moment. If we want to change the constitution, there is a mechanism to do that. But we can't pretend that it doesn't say what it says.

The other challenge, is that regardless of what we do with gun control, there are tens of millions of guns out there, and we cannot confiscate the ones that are out there.

Politically, we are paralyzed because neither side seems willing to budge from a rigid ideological stance.

[Pete F.]

Historically when a small group insists on a right and gun owners are increasingly becoming a smaller and smaller group they end up losing it.
Don't think that a constitutional amendment is impossible.
I would rather give up some of my guns than all and when only 30% of the households own guns and only 10% of those give a s--t you can easy end up in a situation like the UK. Not having semi-automatics would punish my shoulder in duck season but not that bad. Lots of people go hunting in Canada.

[basswipe]

No wonder we're doomed.The amount of misinformation and plain ignorance here is incredible.

The right is misinformed and the left is just plain ignorant.

[JohnR]

Originally Posted by spence

Any so why aren't they used in mass shootings? Is it because they don't have the killing power afforded all those "cosmetic" options or perhaps as Jim says just don't have the sex appeal a killer is looking for?

Easy access to assault weapons is but part of the problem but it is part of the problem.

I don't know why they are or are not used in mass shootings but it is mechanically and functionally just about the same gun. Shoots the same round at the same speed with the same single shot per trigger.

It is not an assault weapon, BTW. The AR destination stands for "Armalite"

Originally Posted by Rockfish9

My condolences to the families that lost loved ones...I hate politics and stay as far away from it as I can...everyone need to meet and "dance in the middle of the floor" if anything is to be done.. great line guy's!... but I cant help but notice one thing..

Most of these extremely sick individuals don't walk into the police station or an army barracks ( fort hood the exception) and pull this crap.. I wonder why.

Yes - they are sick kid "lost boys" with mental health issues, sometimes but not always from troubled homes.

Even several of the terrorist incidents (Hood, Pulse) had people that exhibited some question to mental stability.

In the end, we need to do something. Too many kids die every day on the streets, too many people commit suicide, and schools should be safe. The problem is most often and intersection between mental illness and access to something to kill people with, either bomb, firearm, or a vehicle. Maybe we should focus on the underlying problems: Mental Illness, and political and religious motivations.

To treat law abiding people as the enemy is not the solution. But it is great for votes.

[zimmy]

Originally Posted by JohnR

To treat law abiding people as the enemy is not the solution. But it is great for votes.

To equate any attempt to alter gun laws with the intent to save lives as an attempt at taking away all gun rights is not the solution. But it is great for votes.

Also, in almost every recent mass murderer, the person was a law abiding person up until the guy gunned down kids, teachers, concert goes, club dancers, etc. There are certainly ridiculous components of gun laws, but gun laws are not inherently ridiculous.

I like guns. I tagged along on hunting trips from as young as 5 or 6 and love to shoot. I am now convinced the founders "messed' up.

Supreme Court decision in US v. Miller 1939 2nd amendment intent and implication was for weapons related to a "well regulated militia" only. Based on everything I have read about the lead up to the second I am convinced that is what the founders intendedband as such is antiquated. The concern of the founders was the shift of security from State militias to federal forces. Leads to the question, in modern times, do well regulated state militias that provide protection against the federal army exist and should the intent to protect them dictate modern gun policy?
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[Slipknot]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

Historically when a small group insists on a right and gun owners are increasingly becoming a smaller and smaller group they end up losing it.
Don't think that a constitutional amendment is impossible.
I would rather give up some of my guns than all and when only 30% of the households own guns and only 10% of those give a s--t you can easy end up in a situation like the UK. Not having semi-automatics would punish my shoulder in duck season but not that bad. Lots of people go hunting in Canada.

You would give up some? There is your problem right there, Once they take those some, now there are fewer they will have to come for later. They are picking away bit by bit right under your noses under the guise of safety. Check out how things are in Australia, criminals get guns mailed to them in the mail and law abiding citizens cannot defend themselves because they gave up their guns. Are you going to bring a knife to a gunfight? or become a victim? or a slave to your tyrannical government?

Freedom comes at a cost

the choice of freedom was made in this country 250 years ago

[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by Slipknot

You would give up some? There is your problem right there, Once they take those some, now there are fewer they will have to come for later. They are picking away bit by bit right under your noses under the guise of safety. Check out how things are in Australia, criminals get guns mailed to them in the mail and law abiding citizens cannot defend themselves because they gave up their guns. Are you going to bring a knife to a gunfight? or become a victim? or a slave to your tyrannical government?

Freedom comes at a cost

the choice of freedom was made in this country 250 years ago

You didn’t read what I wrote you need to pick your battles, or the 90% of Americans who don’t agree with you can take the right from you and I by amendment as it was given to us 227 years ago
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[Slipknot]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

You didn’t read what I wrote you need to pick your battles, or the 90% of Americans who don’t agree with you can take the right from you and I by amendment as it was given to us 227 years ago
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

I get what you are saying but I am not handing over anything period

[PaulS]

What is the murder rate in Australia compared to the US?
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[Sea Dangles]

It is sad Jim,just terrible. I would hesitate to refer to any murder as garden variety though. And certainly what goes on in Chicago is more palatable than the mass murder epidemic we are experiencing as of late. But it is still an atmosphere of disrespect. I love guns but refuse to hang this on the constitution like others and dismiss these instances of bloodshed as legal or acceptable because of our outdated measures of good intention. There has to be a middle ground where we can still maintain civility and respect, but protect the innocent victims whose numbers keep growing but are squelched out by our patriotic defenders of freedom. Freedom to get weapons regardless of mental state. Freedom to get weapons just to go kill innocent bystanders. Trust me, if their children were victims they would sing a different tune. This is a terrible scene that plays out with more regularity and it is heartbreaking for our society. I would caution you to hang the cause of these incidents on liberalism,it seems too shallow and insecure in a climate like we are experiencing as a nation. Rise above this type of accusation and digg deep for solutions.
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[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Sea Dangles

It is sad Jim,just terrible. I would hesitate to refer to any murder as garden variety though. And certainly what goes on in Chicago is more palatable than the mass murder epidemic we are experiencing as of late. But t is still an atmosphere of disrespect. I love guns but refuse to hang this on the constitution like others and dismi
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

"It is sad"

That's exactly what it is.

"I would hesitate to refer to any murder as garden variety though.'

I hear you, but you know what I meant...regular street crime, which while it doesn't make the headlines of mass shootings, claims way more lives.

"I love guns but refuse to hang this on the constitution like others"

There are no easy solutions. Just a good time to hug my kids and take them to see the Harlem Globetrotters tomorrow. Have a good long weekend.

[Sea Dangles]

The answer is to make it more difficult to get firearms. Stop making stupid rules that do nothing,10 rounds,bumpstock....Just make the process to acquire the firearm more selective. Right now in MA it takes about 20 minutes to buy a firearm,this is in a state considered to have strict gun laws. It must be time to pay more attention. If I had to wait a day,week,or month in order to make an impulse or nutjob think twice about his urge to kill it would be worth it.
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[JohnR]

Originally Posted by zimmy

To equate any attempt to alter gun laws with the intent to save lives as an attempt at taking away all gun rights is not the solution. But it is great for votes.

Also, in almost every recent mass murderer, the person was a law abiding person up until the guy gunned down kids, teachers, concert goes, club dancers, etc. There are certainly ridiculous components of gun laws, but gun laws are not inherently ridiculous.

I like guns. I tagged along on hunting trips from as young as 5 or 6 and love to shoot. I am now convinced the founders "messed' up.

Supreme Court decision in US v. Miller 1939 2nd amendment intent and implication was for weapons related to a "well regulated militia" only. Based on everything I have read about the lead up to the second I am convinced that is what the founders intendedband as such is antiquated. The concern of the founders was the shift of security from State militias to federal forces. Leads to the question, in modern times, do well regulated state militias that provide protection against the federal army exist and should the intent to protect them dictate modern gun policy?
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

I disagree. The founding fathers knew what they were doing. But they did put in a mechanism to repeal the 2A. Get 34 states to repeal it in a Constitutional Convention. But then you will see the breakup of the USA.

What we need? Better background checks. And a system of restraining order for those suffering from mental health issues.

Originally Posted by Sea Dangles

The answer is to make it more difficult to get firearms. Stop making stupid rules that do nothing,10 rounds,bumpstock....Just make the process to acquire the firearm more selective. Right now in MA it takes about 20 minutes to buy a firearm,this is in a state considered to have strict gun laws. It must be time to pay more attention. If I had to wait a day,week,or month in order to make an impulse or nutjob think twice about his urge to kill it would be worth it.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

You have to have a FID car in Mass first, THEN you get to some of the most restrictive gun rules in the nation.

[spence]

Originally Posted by Sea Dangles

The answer is to make it more difficult to get firearms. Stop making stupid rules that do nothing,10 rounds,bumpstock....Just make the process to acquire the firearm more selective. Right now in MA it takes about 20 minutes to buy a firearm,this is in a state considered to have strict gun laws. It must be time to pay more attention. If I had to wait a day,week,or month in order to make an impulse or nutjob think twice about his urge to kill it would be worth it.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

That certainly is part of the solution. Unfortunately *any* measures to restrict *any* part of the process is viewed as an instant ride down the slippery slope to a dystopian militarized state devoid of liberty.

We're better than that.

Why would we have a federal registry for automatic weapons and not for some semi-auto which have proven in Vegas to be able to hit over 500 people in the span of a few minutes? Why can someone with the extreme track record of illness and violence be able to just walk in and purchase an assault weapon in a few minutes?

Why don't other Western countries have the same issues we do?

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

That certainly is part of the solution. Unfortunately *any* measures to restrict *any* part of the process is viewed as an instant ride down the slippery slope to a dystopian militarized state devoid of liberty.

We're better than that.

Why would we have a federal registry for automatic weapons and not for some semi-auto which have proven in Vegas to be able to hit over 500 people in the span of a few minutes? Why can someone with the extreme track record of illness and violence be able to just walk in and purchase an assault weapon in a few minutes?

Why don't other Western countries have the same issues we do?

"Unfortunately *any* measures to restrict *any* part of the process is viewed as an instant ride down the slippery slope to a dystopian militarized state devoid of liberty"

It's the inly issue I know of, on which it's almost impossible to have a rational conversation with staunch conservatives.

"Why don't other Western countries have the same issues we do?"

In terms of the mass killings? Great question. We have a very small number of very sick folks who are way more violent than the sickest folks in other countries, I guess. It's not an indictment of most Americans, just the sickest.

[wdmso]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

"Unfortunately *any* measures to restrict *any* part of the process is viewed as an instant ride down the slippery slope to a dystopian militarized state devoid of liberty"

It's the inly issue I know of, on which it's almost impossible to have a rational conversation with staunch conservatives.

"Why don't other Western countries have the same issues we do?"

In terms of the mass killings? Great question. We have a very small number of very sick folks who are way more violent than the sickest folks in other countries, I guess. It's not an indictment of most Americans, just the sickest.

Jim .. Fear sells guns and ammo the NRA is a Fear broker ..(look at the sales under Obama..) The NRA and Fox news promotes the Mutually Assured Destruction theory (only a good guy with a gun mantra) ,there will be a rush to buy and ammo if there is any gun control talk... its sad of all the things that go into mass shooting that the right loves to throw into the conversation( and manny are correct ) the one thing always absent in their analysis is mention of the gun and and the ease to get one and the availability of guns in America

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by wdmso

Jim .. Fear sells guns and ammo the NRA is a Fear broker ..(look at the sales under Obama..) The NRA and Fox news promotes the Mutually Assured Destruction theory (only a good guy with a gun mantra) ,there will be a rush to buy and ammo if there is any gun control talk... its sad of all the things that go into mass shooting that the right loves to throw into the conversation( and manny are correct ) the one thing always absent in their analysis is mention of the gun and and the ease to get one and the availability of guns in America

"Fear sells guns"

You can say that again.

"Its sad of all the things that go into mass shooting that the right loves to throw into the conversation( and manny are correct ) the one thing always absent in their analysis is mention of the gun and and the ease to get one and the availability of guns in America"

Agreed.

And the left intentionally leaves out the violence that the entertainment industry bombards our kids with, and the horrific effect that the breakdown of the nuclear family has.

Everyone in the Dakotas has guns, but there is no crime. Because they care about each other. THERE'S THE ANSWER, to care about each other like they do. But Obama calls them bitter clingers, and Hilary calls them deplorable. And no one on the left (including the media except Foxnews) questions Obama and Hilary when they say these things.

That impedes progress, just as much as when the right says we need more guns. Both sides are thoughtlessly rigid in their ideology, both sides are close minded as can be. Both sides prevent solutions. Because we elect people based on how pretty and popular they are, or how much money they promise us, instead of electing people who care.


"

[zimmy]

You are correct John in what we need, though I don't think it is limited to those two things. The NRA funded politicians fight those two things tooth and nail and propagandize that they are the first step to the government taking all guns. I also suggest reading as much as you can about the lead up to the second amendment. No doubt in my mind that 200 years and pervasive political propaganda has distorted the intent of the founders.
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[Sea Dangles]

John, that is not exactly jumping through hoops, guns can be dangerous you know. Believe it or not, the state of Mass actually makes you take drivers education classes and then you have to pass a written exam and then a road test to get a license. And that is just to drive a car! Imagine if there were similar requirements to get a little firearm. I know, crazy talk. It should be as easy as getting milk and eggs. Certainly not as difficult as buying cigarettes.
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[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Sea Dangles

John, that is not exactly jumping through hoops, guns can be dangerous you know. Believe it or not, the state of Mass actually makes you take drivers education classes and then you have to pass a written exam and then a road test to get a license. And that is just to drive a car! Imagine if there were similar requirements to get a little firearm. I know, crazy talk. It should be as easy as getting milk and eggs. Certainly not as difficult as buying cigarettes.
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Great post.

Want to reduce mass killings?

Have our schools do a better job of identifying the small number of children who are lonely, isolated, or bullied. Get these kids some love and some help. I am convinced that in many cases, being alone/bullied in school, is the breeding ground for the mass shooters.

Let's encourage a return to traditional family values, encourage more families to have a parent at home to keep an eye on things. Instead of running around 24 hours a day for kids activities, take time to have supper together and talk to your kids, and listen. Turn the devices off.

Curb the violence we bombard our kids with on TV and in video games

get to church once in awhile, and listen to what's being said.

Encourage more families to have 2 parents.

Be more proactive about locking up the violent mentally ill.

Have a rational conversation about bump stocks and high capacity magazines.

If we do all these things, mass killings will decrease. If we don't do these things, they won't decrease.

[wdmso]

I have said it before the NRA is going to cost its membership dearly . with their NO as a stance on everything gun related ... be part of the solution or the solution will be nothing your going to like ....

some one posted the constitution is for limited Government and seems unlimited fire arms as well ... they want it both ways

[Sea Dangles]

That really makes no sense at all Jim. There is a culture here in the US that is inciting this crap somehow. If you don't consider this epidemic an indictment of our country then you may as well just say you are part of the problem too. I am past the point of denial,something is wrong.
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[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Sea Dangles

That really makes no sense at all Jim. There is a culture here in the US that is inciting this crap somehow. If you don't consider this epidemic an indictment of our country then you may as well just say you are part of the problem too. I am past the point of denial,something is wrong.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

I think I did a rotten job of trying to articulate my point, sorry.

"There is a culture here in the US that is inciting this crap somehow"

I agree, but I don't know what it is. Why is our culture different from, say Germany or England? They watch the same movies, listen to the same music, right? Or look at the Dakotas. Everyone has guns, but except for what you watch on "Fargo", there is zero gun crime. Why is that?

"If you don't consider this epidemic an indictment of our country"

I don't think we have an epidemic of mass shootings. I mean one is way too many, but it's not common.

Street crime, on the other hand (like what happens in Chicago every weekend), is an epidemic and it's very easy to point to the causes.

"I am past the point of denial, something is wrong"

Oh I agree something is seriously wrong. I think our culture and moral compass need a major tune up, a return to 1950s family values, minus the racism.

[spence]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

I agree, but I don't know what it is. Why is our culture different from, say Germany or England? They watch the same movies, listen to the same music, right? Or look at the Dakotas. Everyone has guns, but except for what you watch on "Fargo", there is zero gun crime. Why is that?

Because it's not true. Death by firearms in the Dakota's is in the lower third of all states but it's double NY, NJ, RI, MA, HI etc...

Worst offenders were all heavy Trump states. Go figure.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

Because it's not true. Death by firearms in the Dakota's is in the lower third of all states but it's double NY, NJ, RI, MA, HI etc...

Worst offenders were all heavy Trump states. Go figure.

When you cherry pick the way you look at the data, sometimes you can make it say what you want.

When you normalize gun deaths by state, with gun ownership by state (which is the correct way to look at it if you want to know if guns are the cause of gun deaths), deaths are very low in the Dakotas.

"I don't think it has anything to do with the breakdown of the family either Jim."

Of course you don't. That would mean conservatives have a point, and you'll never, ever concede that.

Parents who are engaged with their kids and who give a sh*t about their kids, are aware of whether or not their kids, however they got there, are at the point of snapping.

[Sea Dangles]

Originally Posted by spence

Because it's not true. Death by firearms in the Dakota's is in the lower third of all states but it's double NY, NJ, RI, MA, HI etc...

Worst offenders were all heavy Trump states. Go figure.

Spence, thanks for proving that you are just as guilty. This spree has no party affiliation. Don't associate it in such a way. Very shallow agenda Jeff
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[spence]

Originally Posted by Sea Dangles

Spence, thanks for proving that you are just as guilty. This spree has no party affiliation. Don't associate it in such a way. Very shallow agenda Jeff
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Pffffttt...the causes might not be partisan but the desire to work on the problem most certainly is.