Burning the Koran

[spence]

Welcome to the thread.

Originally Posted by detbuch

There are different "we" with different opinions of who we are. "We" don't have as unified opinion of who we are as the opinion Muslims, aparently, have of who we are.

This statement implies there's a unified Islamic position as to what America is. This clearly is not the case. Hell, there isn't even a unified Islamic position as to what Islam is.

Politicians for or against the mosque can be accused of exploiting both controversies for political gain. But that would be a gross generalization. And the pastor's stunt could well have been an Alinskyish tactic of provoking the enemy into its typical peaceful behavior of rioting or killing.

I'm not aware of much mosque support intended for political gain, given some polls it could bring political pain.

But your comment makes me think...Is a poor, uneducated teenager in Afghanistan who perhaps doesn't even have a choice to participate in a protest against Americans burning the Koran...the ENEMY?

I guess he is if you want to make it be.

Note to all: A very good book -> http://www.amazon.com/Way-World-Stor.../dp/0061430625

Wow! Talk about gross generalizations!

I think the politicization of this issue by the Right has been pretty clear.

What is it, again, that we are supposedly preaching?

We preach the rule of law, respect of life etc... which from another perspective we don't seem to follow.

Gee Spence, for someone who is as familiar and approbative of Alinsky tactics as you are, how do you fail to see how Obama's team have infiltrated the fringe right, posing as right wingers blaming Islam for all our ills instead of blaming Obama?

I don't think Dems in general have the stones to pull it off.

-spence

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by spence

Welcome to the thread.

Thanks. Probably should have stayed out of the thread, as I really didn't care if the Korans were burned or not. It would have been exciting, and the "news" loves excitement. I agree with those who think the Muslim response, if as threatened or predicted, would have been more idiotic, lawless, and to be pleaded against than the tiny group of book burners. And the Muslim response should not have been merely predicted by Muslim leaders, but they should have been the ones to demand that such responses not occur.

This statement implies there's a unified Islamic position as to what America is. This clearly is not the case. Hell, there isn't even a unified Islamic position as to what Islam is.

No, it implies that the Islamic position re America is not necessarily unified, but more unified than our opinions of who we are. That's, admittedly, just a guess based on the bulk of the "reports" that we get, and the supposition that Islamic societies are not as diverse as ours is. I should have excluded American Muslims from my statement since I view them as part of the disunified perceptions we have of ourselves--which is the real point of my response to your saying "it's about staying true to who we are."--and which you didn't answer.

My real implication is we are divided in this country, maybe more so than ever, and staying true to who we say we are will result in a different true for a different we--even to the point of being diametrically opposed. Vive la diversity.

And the we that oppose the GZ Mosque or wish to burn Korans may disagree fundamentally with the we who oppose them. But they don't disagree on a constitutional basis.

I'm not aware of much mosque support intended for political gain, given some polls it could bring political pain.

There might be some political game from American Muslims, various immigrants, and those who think it's mean spirited and un-American to oppose the mosque. And there is, as you say, the big possibility of backlash pain. But there would be more political gain to oppose the Koran burners as typical right wing nuts.

But your comment makes me think...Is a poor, uneducated teenager in Afghanistan who perhaps doesn't even have a choice to participate in a protest against Americans burning the Koran...the ENEMY?

I don't think the book burners were thinking of the poor Afghan kid who wouldn't participate in a protest, but they might have been thinking about the thousands, maybe tens of thousands, or hundreds of thousands of whackos who would protest.

I guess he is if you want to make it be.

As I said, I didn't care one way or the other.


I think the politicization of this issue by the Right has been pretty clear.

I don't think it's been all that clear. What you may consider politicization may be an honest opinion of a different minded we.

We preach the rule of law, respect of life etc... which from another perspective we don't seem to follow.

What laws have been broken? Which lives have been taken?

I don't think Dems in general have the stones to pull it off.
-spence

So WE have different perspectives on Dem stones. Over the past several years, it has appeared to this we that the Dems have exercised more balls, in every way, than the Republicans, who have so often acted like eunuchs. I think the latter's fear of "main stream" press has contributed to their castration.

[RIROCKHOUND]

Originally Posted by detbuch

Gee Spence, for someone who is as familiar and approbative of Alinsky tactics as you are, how do you fail to see how Obama's team have infiltrated the fringe right, posing as right wingers blaming Islam for all our ills instead of blaming Obama?

Wow.
your stuff must be strong! it is making you a bit paranoid though....

[scottw]

Originally Posted by RIROCKHOUND

Wow.
your stuff must be strong! it is making you a bit paranoid though....

yeah, that's crazy, things like that have never happened....

"...in the spring of 1972, at Tulane University...students asked Alinsky to help plan a protest of a scheduled speech by George H. W. Bush, then U.S. representative to the United Nations - a speech likely to include a defense of the Nixon administration's Vietnam War policies. The students told Alinsky they were thinking about picketing or disrupting Bush's address. That's the wrong approach, he rejoined, not very creative - and besides causing a disruption might get them thrown out of school. He told them, instead, to go to hear the speech dressed as members of the Ku Klux Klan, and whenever Bush said something in defense of the Vietnam War, they should cheer and wave placards reading, ‘The KKK supports Bush.' And that is what they did, with very successful, attention-getting results."


Planting major falsehoods has been a favorite Alinsky strategy from the start. His acolyte, Barack Obama, learned his Industrial Areas Foundation lessons on deceiving for power while on a side trip during his Harvard years, then taught the Alinsky power tactics at the University of Chicago.

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by RIROCKHOUND

Wow.
your stuff must be strong! it is making you a bit paranoid though....

I guess my stuff is stronger than I thought. I assumed it was obvious that, with a scenario which hasn't happened, I was demonstrating absurdity with absurdity. Certainly, infiltrating to deceive is a tactic, as Scott points out, that has been used. Sarcasm, irony, do need some illusion of credibility. I didn't think anyone would take it seriously. It was, after all, a response to Spence's remark--"Pretty soon you're going to see the fringe Right blaming Islam for all our ills. I can see it forming as we speak." That you didn't see paranoia in that statement is curious.

[RIJIMMY]

spence, you've lost it.
They can burn the bible, torah, koran, whatever - separation of church and state......right?
Practice what we preach? we preach individual FREEDOM!!!!!!!!!!
responsibility from muslims abroad???? for stoning people, for suicide bombers? for all kinds of inhumane tasks. THIS GUY WAS BURNING A F"IN BOOK!!!
He wasnt doin one damn thing to ANYONES freedom to practive their religion.

welcome to america, dont like it? hurt your feelings? spend a month in Saudi Arabia and try to get a beer and pick up a girl. You'll be thrown in jail or beheaded.

[spence]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

spence, you've lost it.

Nope, still in control.

They can burn the bible, torah, koran, whatever - separation of church and state......right?
Practice what we preach? we preach individual FREEDOM!!!!!!!!!!

From an outside perspective many think we preach individual freedom when we choose, and that our beliefs don't apply to them. Why else would we let Israel punish Palestinians, ship off children and old men to GITMO and inflict tens or hundreds of thousands of civilian casualties all in the name of Freedom?

Is anyone more free as a result?

Agree or disagree this is a very real and very common viewpoint outside of the US, and not just by Muslims. Hell, just go north a few hours to CANADA, 'ey.

responsibility from muslims abroad???? for stoning people, for suicide bombers? for all kinds of inhumane tasks.

You're generalizing again.

THIS GUY WAS BURNING A F"IN BOOK!!!
He wasnt doin one damn thing to ANYONES freedom to practive their religion.

As I said above, the real issue here isn't about the pastor. The white elephant in the room is how American's fear and mistrust of Islam is being exploited.

welcome to america, dont like it? hurt your feelings? spend a month in Saudi Arabia and try to get a beer and pick up a girl. You'll be thrown in jail or beheaded.

Ahh, the old "we must be right because we're better than them" defense.

I think I'd rather lead by example.

-spence

[scottw]

[QUOTE=spence;793807]Nope, still in control.



that was awesome

In control like Chris Mattews on a "the right sucks and is ruining the world" rant

[RIJIMMY]

Originally Posted by spence

Nope, still in control.



From an outside perspective many think we preach individual freedom when we choose, and that our beliefs don't apply to them. Why else would we let Israel punish Palestinians, ship off children and old men to GITMO and inflict tens or hundreds of thousands of civilian casualties all in the name of Freedom?

Is anyone more free as a result?

Agree or disagree this is a very real and very common viewpoint outside of the US, and not just by Muslims. Hell, just go north a few hours to CANADA, 'ey.


You're generalizing again.


As I said above, the real issue here isn't about the pastor. The white elephant in the room is how American's fear and mistrust of Islam is being exploited.


Ahh, the old "we must be right because we're better than them" defense.

I think I'd rather lead by example.

-spence

the fear and mistrust of islam is not being exploited - its rationale is being highlighted. did anyone in their right mind thing the reaction would be different? DEATH TO AMERICA!!!!
and for the record, our beliefs do not apply to them. thats why we have different laws. dont turn this into some broad reaching discussion, this is a guy in Florida wanting to do something that insults muslims and they turn it into a worldwide incident because. NONE OF THE WORLDS FREAKIN BUSINESS.

[RIJIMMY]

Quote:
responsibility from muslims abroad???? for stoning people, for suicide bombers? for all kinds of inhumane tasks.

You're generalizing again.

really? Are their LAWS in Iran that permit stoning? Are there state sponsored (Libya, Iran, Previously Iraq) agencies that support suicide bombers? See, you have the "vicitm" mentality hat on, you are wrong. Do women have rights in musliom countries? Its not generalizing its FACTS. I dont write their laws, maybe you do? tell me spence, if I go to Saudi Arabia and yell Allah sucks ******, how long will I live? thats not a generalization, its a fact.

[scottw]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

tell me spence, if I go to Saudi Arabia and yell Allah sucks ******, how long will I live? thats not a generalization, its a fact.

WHEN THEY CUT YOU HEAD OFF...DON'T GO CRYING TO THE DAD FISHERMAN....

[RIJIMMY]

Originally Posted by scottw

WHEN THEY CUT YOU HEAD OFF...DON'T GO CRYING TO THE DAD FISHERMAN....

Dad F has been pretty sane on this issue. Suprisingly its spence who is way out there.

[The Dad Fisherman]

Originally Posted by scottw

WHEN THEY CUT YOU HEAD OFF...DON'T GO CRYING TO THE DAD FISHERMAN....

Actually, if you go to Faizabad and get in the middle of this and yell Allah Sucks.........and they cut your head off, don't come crying to me.

[RIJIMMY]

just a few crazy radical......

A crowd, which a government official estimated at 10,000, poured out of mosques into the streets of Faizabad, the capital of Badakhshan in Afghanistan's northeast, after special prayers for Eid al-Fitr, the end of the Muslim fasting month of Ramadan.

One protester was shot dead when a smaller group attacked a German-run NATO base in Faizabad, hurling stones at the outpost, a spokesman for the provincial government said.

Afghan security forces rushed to the scene to restore order, and three police were hurt when stones the crowd was hurling hit them, the spokesman said.

A spokesman for the NATO-led International Security Assistance Force in Kabul the force is aware of the Faizabad protests and were checking the incident.

Eight Christian aid workers were killed by unidentified gunmen in remote and rugged Badakhshan last month. wow - where was the muslim uproar, aid workers????Several hundred gathered in a northern district of Kabul, while about 2,000 marched on a government building in western Farah, officials and witnesses said. There were also protests in nearby Badghis in the northwest and Ghor and Herat in the west.

Similar protests over perceived desecration of Muslim symbols have led to dozens of deaths in Afghanistan in recent years, including after a Danish newspaper published a cartoon depicting the Prophet Muhammad in 2005.
'We Will Attack U.S. Bases,' Muslim Cleric Warns

In eastern Nangahar, tribal chiefs threatened to attack NATO bases near the Pakistan border if Jones went ahead with the plan. "If they do this, we will attack American bases and close the highway used by convoys supplying American troops," a cleric named Zahidullah told Reuters.
At mosques in the capital, clerics also labeled the plan dangerous. "Muslims are ready to sacrifice their sons, fathers and mothers for Islam and the Koran," one preacher said at one Kabul mosque to cries of "Allahu Akbar" (God is Greatest). silly, dont they know its only the radical fringe, just ask spence!

The polls are seen as a key test of stability in Afghanistan before Obama conducts a war strategy review in December. Obama has said the plan, dismissed by conservatives and liberals alike as an attention-seeking stunt, would be a "recruitment bonanza" for al Qaeda.

[JohnnyD]

The biggest issue with the people arguing in this thread is that you're trying to rationalize the motivations of people who base their actions on an irrational topic - religion.

The Crusades, Jihad, the Taiping Rebellion the longest and deadliest of wars in human history, all motivated by one premise - you don't believe in the same religious figure as I do or you call him by a different name, therefore you should die.

[RIJIMMY]

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

The biggest issue with the people arguing in this thread is that you're trying to rationalize the motivations of people who base their actions on an irrational topic - religion.

The Crusades, Jihad, the Taiping Rebellion the longest and deadliest of wars in human history, all motivated by one premise - you don't believe in the same religious figure as I do or you call him by a different name, therefore you should die.

EXACTLY !! and ALL of these cultures have moved on except one! Just one......and the only religion in the world that we have a modern day potential for war and violence is ________________

[The Dad Fisherman]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

EXACTLY !! and ALL of these cultures have moved on except one! Just one......and the only religion in the world that we have a modern day potential for war and violence is ________________

Freikin Lutherans....those bastards

[spence]

RIJ, you're posting nonsense too quickly. I can't keep up...at least ScottW is pacing himself. Scott, thank you...

My favorite was your evidence that all Muslims are crazy, by citing a presently inflamed, already extreme part of a war torn country that's seen little but death and destruction for the past 30 years.

Why can't these people just pull themselves up by their bootstraps?

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

EXACTLY !! and ALL of these cultures have moved on except one! Just one......and the only religion in the world that we have a modern day potential for war and violence is ________________

And from another perspective American and Russian bombs caused far more death and destruction than any actions taken in the name of Islam the last 30 years.

Instead of focusing on the religion, you should try taking a look at the history and present geopolitical environment that has shaped the modern world.

Most of the Islamic countries we see as higher risk didn't even exist or pretend to self govern until the 1940's. The influence of crumbling Colonization (followed immediately by the Cold War) combined with the abundance of fossil fuels (not to mention strategic geographic locations) on regional policies can't be ignored when trying to understand the situation or possible outcomes.

But you Jimmy just want them to let bygones be bygones and move along already.

Who's going to cut my head off again?

-spence

[RIJIMMY]

Originally Posted by spence

RIJ, you're posting nonsense too quickly. I can't keep up...at least ScottW is pacing himself. Scott, thank you...

My favorite was your evidence that all Muslims are crazy, by citing a presently inflamed, already extreme part of a war torn country that's seen little but death and destruction for the past 30 years.

Why can't these people just pull themselves up by their bootstraps?


And from another perspective American and Russian bombs caused far more death and destruction than any actions taken in the name of Islam the last 30 years.

Instead of focusing on the religion, you should try taking a look at the history and present geopolitical environment that has shaped the modern world.

Most of the Islamic countries we see as higher risk didn't even exist or pretend to self govern until the 1940's. The influence of crumbling Colonization (followed immediately by the Cold War) combined with the abundance of fossil fuels (not to mention strategic geographic locations) on regional policies can't be ignored when trying to understand the situation or possible outcomes.

But you Jimmy just want them to let bygones be bygones and move along already.

Who's going to cut my head off again?

-spence

um, er, ah, um - whats that have to do with some guy buring a book?

[scottw]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

um, er, ah, um - whats that have to do with some guy buring a book?

they are victims

[scottw]

Originally Posted by JohnnyD

The biggest issue with the people arguing in this thread is that you're trying to rationalize the motivations of people who base their actions on an irrational topic - religion.

The Crusades, Jihad, the Taiping Rebellion the longest and deadliest of wars in human history, all motivated by one premise - you don't believe in the same religious figure as I do or you call him by a different name, therefore you should die.

wiki

Immediate cause

The immediate cause of the First Crusade was the Byzantine emperor Alexios I's appeal to Pope Urban II for mercenaries to help him resist Muslim advances into territory of the Byzantine Empire.

*Barry Soetoro should order NASA to build the Ground Zero Mosque...after all, he did order it NASA's prime objective to make the muslim world feel good about themselves and it will probably look kinda like a rocket...right?

[RIJIMMY]

This is what I dont get. This is from the imam who was negotiating with the wacky pastor.

The imam said he feels Jones is a "good person at heart" who simply got himself into a difficult position and could not back down despite calls from Christian and world leaders.

"He could not back down, and I felt that it's my responsibility, as the Muslim leader in central Florida, to go up to him and speak one-on-one with him and explain that he's putting American lives in danger and he should reconsider."

So, why is the imam saying American lives are in danger and asking the pastor to stop instead of saying to the muslims worldwide that this act does not impact our religion and is the work of a small group of people. Then say that we are a peaceful religion and should not harm anyone.
The Imam agrees that PEOPLE OF HIS RELIGION will kill people. And it appears its ok???? Whats the real "wrong" here, buring the Korans or killing people as a result????? For me, this is the core of the problem with the Muslim "voice". They do not speak up about the atrocities that are commited in their religions name. Here is a perfect example. The message - dont do it because mulsims in the world will kill americans. Huh????

[buckman]

I hope the book burning won't risk the lives of our troops. At least not as much as the Obama supported release of Gitmo pictures.

[spence]

Originally Posted by buckman

I hope the book burning won't risk the lives of our troops. At least not as much as the Obama supported release of Gitmo pictures.

Funny, and all the while I thought it was the subject matter of the photos which was the problem.

-spence

[buckman]

Originally Posted by spence

Funny, and all the while I thought it was the subject matter of the photos which was the problem.

-spence

No.

Hmmm, wonder if I go back to that thread,which side of the fence you were on.

Can we at least agree that Islam has a problem with terrorism that other religions don't seem to have. You can't fix the problem if you won't confront the truths.

[spence]

Originally Posted by buckman

Can we at least agree that Islam has a problem with terrorism that other religions don't seem to have. You can't fix the problem if you won't confront the truths.

From a Western perspective, Islam absolutely has a problem with radicalization and terrorism, and I'd say that many Western or more liberal Muslims would also share this view.

But I don't think this is a product of Islam as much as Islam has been a contributing factor. Certainly there's an element of piety to Islam that's much stronger than in most mainstream religions, and this can exacerbate geopolitical issues.

Our religious wackos are probably no more crazy than theirs, but the ground rules outside of the First World (and to a lesser degree) are quite different than what we're used to.

Just as you can't comprehend living under Sharia, they can't comprehend the First Amendment. Remember that...

-spence

[Nebe]

Lol. And a sacred scroll
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[scottw]

yup...

The Washington Examiner reveals some creative tax filing by Imam Rauf and reveals who is funding him..


Feisal Abdul Rauf, the New York imam and State Department envoy who wants to build a controversial new mosque at Ground Zero, applied for - and received - tax-exempt status from the IRS in 1998 for another mosque about 10 blocks from the Ground Zero site, stating that he was already holding prayer services there for up to 500 daily worshippers.


But when the Investigative Project on Terrorism checked out the information Rauf provided to the government on his IRS 1023 form, they discovered that 201 W. 85th Street was a 17-story Manhattan apartment building with no public spaces large enough to accommodate 500 daily worshippers. And Apartment 10 E was a one-bedroom, 800-square-foot unit that would have trouble holding even 50.


In their 1998 tax filing, Rauf and his wife, Daisy Khan, former director of the American Sufi Muslim Association, said that they wanted to build "a large scale prayer center in New York City...The center will include a mosque (prayer place) where every Friday and daily large congregation prayers and meditation centers will be held." However, IPT says, "ASMA records don't indicate that the center was ever built."[snip]


A recent financial statement by ASMA reported donations from the United Nations Population Fund, the Dutch government, MDG3 Fund, the Hunt Alternatives Fund, Carnegie Corp., the Rockefeller Brothers Fund, and the Qatar government.

[buckman]

Originally Posted by scottw

yup...

The Washington Examiner reveals some creative tax filing by Imam Rauf and reveals who is funding him..


Feisal Abdul Rauf, the New York imam and State Department envoy who wants to build a controversial new mosque at Ground Zero, applied for - and received - tax-exempt status from the IRS in 1998 for another mosque about 10 blocks from the Ground Zero site, stating that he was already holding prayer services there for up to 500 daily worshippers.


But when the Investigative Project on Terrorism checked out the information Rauf provided to the government on his IRS 1023 form, they discovered that 201 W. 85th Street was a 17-story Manhattan apartment building with no public spaces large enough to accommodate 500 daily worshippers. And Apartment 10 E was a one-bedroom, 800-square-foot unit that would have trouble holding even 50.


In their 1998 tax filing, Rauf and his wife, Daisy Khan, former director of the American Sufi Muslim Association, said that they wanted to build "a large scale prayer center in New York City...The center will include a mosque (prayer place) where every Friday and daily large congregation prayers and meditation centers will be held." However, IPT says, "ASMA records don't indicate that the center was ever built."[snip]


A recent financial statement by ASMA reported donations from the United Nations Population Fund, the Dutch government, MDG3 Fund, the Hunt Alternatives Fund, Carnegie Corp., the Rockefeller Brothers Fund, and the Qatar government.

Is his wife's name really Daisy ??? I love that. Maybe she works at one of the local stripper clubs.

[spence]

Are you serious? The man and his wife sound like they're cleaner than most members of Congress.

The funding is definitely suspicious though. CarnegieCorp? Rockefeller Fund? The Dutch Government???

I did have to look up the MGD3 Fund. Here's what found on the homepage.

‘It’s unacceptable that people are discriminated and subordinated because of their gender.’ Bert Koenders, Dutch Minister for Development Cooperation



‘Gender Equality and the Empowerment of Women’, the third Millennium Development Goal is a priority of the Dutch government. More action is needed to truly create a society where men and women are equal and enjoy the same rights and opportunities. Women struggle for equal rights, economic justice and a safe environment. Often with limited financial means but with a strong commitment and interest. For themselves, their families and their communities. Worldwide there is a fight against poverty, but special attention needs to be given to violence and discrimination against women.



Concrete action is called for to achieve equality between women and men. As a result Dutch NGO’s, companies and the Ministry of Foreign Affairs have decided to put their back into the fund: MDG3 Fund: Investing in Equality. Each provides a unique contribution to the realization of Millennium Development Goal 3.

This must be some insidious plot to enact Sharia Law through...um...

What was your point again?

-spence