Incredible - No liberal bias, huh?

[scottw]

Originally Posted by Chesapeake Bill

North Carolina has a strong economy becasue they don't pay their workers squat. .

that's pretty funny

[Chesapeake Bill]

Scott,

I think he's a lunatic. I suspect he fishes with as much passion as he writes on this board.

NC is one of four states that does not tax federal retirements. Much of the growth in that state has been retirees moving there so they can experience reduced taxes. As far as wages, outside of RTP workers do not make much. Look at the jobs that are offered on Monster and compare the salaries.

Anyway, you focused on one minute point rather than discuss the value (if you can call it that) that unions bring to a region. Don't get me wrong. I am not defending them. Merely pointing out how the economy changes as a result of their actions, often to the good of the citizens who are not represented (also often to the detriment especially when the jobs go offshore as in textiles).

Also, as a 14th generation dutchman who can trace his lineage to the 1640's in the Hudson Valley (and who also grew up just a stone's throw from Lancaster County) if you want to know about the "Penn's Woods Germans" I'd be happy to discuss. I agree that the history lesson is at best amusing.

[scottw]

Originally Posted by Chesapeake Bill

Scott,

Anyway, you focused on one minute point rather than discuss the value (if you can call it that) that unions bring to a region. Don't get me wrong. I am not defending them. Merely pointing out how the economy changes as a result of their actions, often to the good of the citizens who are not represented (also often to the detriment especially when the jobs go offshore as in textiles).

seems to me that the highly unionized regions are all buckling from their inability to pay current union wages and benefits and in addition have no way to pay the unfunded obligations that have been promised, that includes some private sector unions as well, you can say that it was politicians that allowed this in the public sector but they were working in conjunction with union bosses, a cozy symbiotic relationship that resulted in reelection and protected status....whatever positive that you'd like to attribut to unions in the form of baseline wages?...the net is a huge loss that we will be feeling for some time...these same unions have actively advocated as a block and provided enormous amounts of funding for politicians who have expanded many of the other massive entitlements that threaten our future..."often to the good of the citizens who are not represented" those not represented will be paying the maxed out union credit card and all that it has purchased for a very long time...

[justplugit]

Originally Posted by Chesapeake Bill

Scott,



Also, as a 14th generation dutchman who can trace his lineage to the 1640's in the Hudson Valley (and who also grew up just a stone's throw from Lancaster County) if you want to know about the "Penn's Woods Germans" I'd be happy to discuss. I agree that the history lesson is at best amusing.

I'm in, always up for learning history.

[scottw]

Bluest states also most in debt, highly unionized and solidly Democrat (But that's all coincidental, right?)

By: Mark Tapscott 02/28/10 4:00 AM
Editorial Page Editor Follow Him @mtapscott

.Forbes magazine has completed a comprehensive look at "The Global Debt Bomb" and in the course of compiling the results found this very interesting tidbit:

"The five states in the worst financial condition--Illinois, New York, Connecticut, California and New Jersey--are all among the bluest of blue states. The five most fiscally fit states are more of a mix. Three--Utah, Nebraska and Texas--boast Republican majorities and two--New Hampshire and Virginia--skew Democratic."

But wait, it's actually more serious than that when you look at the 10 states in the worst financial condition, according to Forbes:

"Of the 10 states in the worst financial condition, eight are among a total of 23 defined by Gallup as "solidly Democratic," meaning the Democrats enjoy an advantage of 10 percentage points or greater in party affiliation. These states include the ones listed above as making up the bottom five, plus Massachusetts, Ohio and Wisconsin.

"Of the three other basement-dwellers, Kentucky is defined as "leaning Democratic" (a five- to 10-percentage-point Democratic advantage) and the remaining two--Louisiana and Mississippi--are termed politically "Competitive" (less than a five-percentage-point advantage for either party). Louisiana tilts slightly Democratic and Mississippi slightly Republican."

Forbes quotes an Illinois political science professor who explains why these rankings turn out as they do:

"Why do Democratic states appear to be struggling more than Republican ones? It comes down to stronger unions and a larger appetite for public programs, according to Kent Redfield, professor emeritus of political studies and public affairs at the University of Illinois' Center for State Policy and Leadership.

"'Unions in general have more influence in Democratic-controlled states,' he says. 'This isn't to say that unions are bad, but where they're strong you have bigger demands for social services and coalitions with construction companies, road builders and others that push up debt.'"

Read more at the Washington Examiner: Bluest states also most in debt, highly unionized and solidly Democrat (But that's all coincidental, right?) | Mark Tapscott | Beltway Confidential | Washington Examiner

[RIJIMMY]

Originally Posted by Chesapeake Bill

Scott,

I think he's a lunatic. .

are you not following Zimmy's posts? He puts in incorrect info, I correct him and he goes on off on a tangent. heres a quick recap

Zimmy stated:

our country's 400 yr history.
- makes no sense. plenty of evidence above

Jamestown was founded on "principles"
- nope, business venture. Zim as agreed after 20 posts.

The Pennsylvania Dutch came here for religious freedom
- nope, thats like saying the massachusetts indians. No one was in another country and called themselves that. If he said dutch, germans or whatever, then it would make sense.

[zimmy]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

The Pennsylvania Dutch came here for religious freedom
- nope, thats like saying the massachusetts indians.

I was gonna stay away, but the funniest friggin thing is the Massachusetts Indians were part of the Wampanoag tribe. There is absolutely nothing wrong with saying Massachusetts Indians This is certainly enlightening stuff

[scottw]

Originally Posted by zimmy

I was gonna stay away, but the funniest friggin thing is the . This is certainly enlightening stuff

nope....this was the funniest friggin thing and also the most absurd...

"Again, all these issues are really complex.
Also, based on policies, Reagan would be a democrat today, not tea party. "ZIMMY

don't stay away Zimmy, you and Jimmy have developed some real chemistry...

[zimmy]

Originally Posted by scottw

nope....this was the funniest friggin thing and also the most absurd...

"Again, all these issues are really complex.
Also, based on policies, Reagan would be a democrat today, not tea party. "ZIMMY

don't stay away Zimmy, you and Jimmy have developed some real chemistry...

hey DN, how many times did he raise taxes? What did he do with illegal immigrants? Department of veterans affairs? Then how about JHWB? Raised taxes. JWB- huge expansion. You really are not very competent with your arguments.

[scottw]

Originally Posted by Chesapeake Bill

Scott,


NC is one of four states that does not tax federal retirements. Much of the growth in that state has been retirees moving there so they can experience reduced taxes.

businessfacilities.com 2010 state rankings

Economic Growth Potential
1. South Carolina
2. Tennessee
3. Virginia
4. North Carolina
5. Texas
6. Arizona

Best Business Climate
1. Texas
2. Virginia
3. Utah
4. South Carolina
5. Tennessee
6. North Carolina

Workforce Training Leaders
1. Louisiana
2. Georgia
3. New Mexico
4. Florida
5. North Carolina

probably as a result of all of those retirees moving there for tax reasons those southern states are a disaster

10/15/10 - North Carolina ranked 3rd by Forbes for Best States for Business

Gov. Bev Perdue on Oct. 14 announced Forbes magazine is ranking North Carolina as the 3rd Best State for Business in America. North Carolina improved from last year’s Forbes ranking of fifth. In addition, the Governor announced that recent statistics from the Federal Bureau of Labor and Statistics show North Carolina is the 3rd best state for declining unemployment and 4th in the nation for job creation.

In the Forbes rankings, North Carolina scored third in Business Costs and Regulatory Environment and ninth in Growth Prospect. Forbes scored the states on six measures including business cost, labor supply, regulatory environment, economic climate, growth prospect and quality of life.

let's see...North Carolina...or Michigan, RI...etc...?

[zimmy]

Originally Posted by scottw

businessfacilities.com 2010 state rankings



let's see...North Carolina...or Michigan, RI...etc...?

funny thing, statistics. NC top tier in business climate, but when you look directly at how that translates for the citizens, bottom third or so in most categories

From US census bureau and NCstate website
Rank

Unemployment
41 NORTH CAROLINA 9.9%

Per Capita income
36 NORTH CAROLINA

Home ownership
32 North Carolina 69.4%

Graduation Rate
37 NC 71.4%

SAT rankings
Participation.
11 NC
Reading and Writing
41 NC
Math
35 NC

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by zimmy

funny thing, statistics. NC top tier in business climate, but when you look directly at how that translates for the citizens, bottom third or so in most categories

From US census bureau and NCstate website
Rank

Unemployment
41 NORTH CAROLINA 9.9%

What does this number have to do with unions? Are you suggesting that unionization would raise the employment rate in Norh Carolina? Is 9.9 percent some dramatically high figure compared to the national average? In my great union State of Michigan 9.9 percent would look good.

Per Capita income
36 NORTH CAROLINA

Per Capita income is not necessarily an indicator of union success. A great deal of average income is boosted by non-union, greedy capitalist types and financial sector positions such as in New England. What may be more telling in the "translation" for citizens than Per Capita income is the cost of living. Of the 10 States with the lowest cost of living, 8 are right to work states.

Home ownership
32 North Carolina 69.4%

Percentage of home ownership in North Carolina is not far off from the middle. It beats the percentage in highly touted States such as New York, New Jersey, Illinois, and California. What is the connection between unionization and home ownership?

Graduation Rate
37 NC 71.4%

Again, this figure is not so far off from the middle, and, again, what does unionization have to do with it? So, if everybody joined a union, the graduation rate would rise? Should we start demanding everbody get a degree of some sort so they can get a union job?

SAT rankings
Participation.
11 NC
Reading and Writing
41 NC
Math
35 NC

Again, what's this got to do with unions?

[scottw]

Originally Posted by detbuch

Again, what's this got to do with unions?

maybe Zimmy's statistics indicate that the government schools and unionized teachers are doing and have been doing a crappy job in preparing North Carolina's children to participate in it's growing economy?

this is where it began, I don't know how we ended up at SAT scores...

Chesapeak Bill "I can, however, say that if you look at the current economic situation in southern states (North Carolina is a good example) the average worker makes squat. Why? Becuase there is no union group to set an eaxample for what is the baseline. Good or bad, the unions have helped out non-union workers by establishing baseline salaries. Do you really think hourly wages woudl be where they are without at least one union getting a contract that establishes the standard for what is fair? If so, you are kidding yourself. Without that corporate greed would take hold "

[Chesapeake Bill]

Scott,

Read my entire post. I'm not trying ot defend unions. I'm merely stating how they have changed economies...both good and bad. I can't argue that they have gone overboard in many states and companies. I can argue that in the states where unions had strongholds (meaning contracts) the prevailing wage was higher--for good or bad. I say good or bad becasue sometimes having a higher wage is bad. An example is my state where they seem to not want any business base and to make that point they keep taxing us as if the last one just left.

[scottw]

Originally Posted by Chesapeake Bill

Scott,

Read my entire post. I'm not trying ot defend unions. I'm merely stating how they have changed economies...both good and bad. I can't argue that they have gone overboard in many states and companies. I can argue that in the states where unions had strongholds (meaning contracts) the prevailing wage was higher--for good or bad. I say good or bad becasue sometimes having a higher wage is bad. An example is my state where they seem to not want any business base and to make that point they keep taxing us as if the last one just left.

I did and I understand, I'm just not willing to grant unions in the modern era, credit for "lifting all boats"...they may have served a purpose long ago but the have worked in their own interest and in most cases to the detrement of those who are not in unions, they have chiseled out sections of the economy and used those entities, whether government or private business as their own hosts on which to feed, the union corporate structures are large bureaucratic machines that use the political system and thug tactics to increase revenue and membership while producing nothing more than preferential treatment for it's members and political donations for their tools in government....whatever positives this society and economy has derived from union actions are far outweighed by the massive debt that we now find hanging over our heads in order to accomodate and placate what is a relatively small segment of our society that whields tremendous influence ....which is obvious if you look at the various state capitols and the actual amount of $$$ that went from the stimulus directly to keep union members employed for the last two years

[scottw]

UNIONS THREATEN BUSINESS
By Charlie Sykes
Mar 10, 2011



March 10, 2011
Mr. Tom Ellis, President
Marshall & Ilsley Corporation
770 N. Water Street
Milwaukee, WI 53202
SENT VIA FASCIMILE AND REGULAR MAIL


Dear Mr. Ellis:
As you undoubtedly know, Governor Walker recently proposed a “budget
adjustment bill” to eviscerate public employees’ right to collectively bargain in
Wisconsin. ..

As you also know, Scott Walker did not campaign on this issue when he ran for
office. If he had, we are confident that you would not be listed among his largest
contributors. As such, we are contacting you now to request your support.

The undersigned groups would like your company to publicly oppose Governor
Walker’s efforts to virtually eliminate collective bargaining for public employees in
Wisconsin. While we appreciate that you may need some time to consider this
request, we ask for your response by March 17. In the event that you do not
respond to this request by that date, we will assume that you stand with
Governor Walker and against the teachers, nurses, police officers, fire fighters,
and other dedicated public employees who serve our communities.


In the event that you cannot support this effort to save collective bargaining,
please be advised that the undersigned will publicly and formally boycott the
goods and services provided by your company. However, if you join us, we will
do everything in our power to publicly celebrate your partnership in the fight to
preserve the right of public employees to be heard at the bargaining table.
Wisconsin’s public employee unions serve to protect and promote equality and
fairness in the workplace. We hope you will stand with us and publicly share that
ideal.

In the event you would like to discuss this matter further, please contact the
executive Director of the Wisconsin Professional Police Association, Jim Palmer,
at 608.273.3840.

Thank you in advance for your consideration. We look forward to hearing from
you soon.

James L. Palmer, Executive Director
Wisconsin Professional Police Association
Mahlon Mitchell,President
Professional Professional Fire Fighters
Jim Conway, President
International Association of Fire Fighters Local 311
John Matthews, Execuctive Director
Madison Teachers, Inc.
Keith Patt, Executive Director
Green Bay Education Association
Bob Richardson, President
Dane County Deputy Sheriffs Association
Dan Frei, Prersident
Madison Professional Police Officers Association

[Chesapeake Bill]

Police and Fire are excluded. Why would they sign on the letter? Where is the original with signatures to give some credibility to the letter?

I never said tehy "lifted the boat." I said they caused change. Not all unions are large evil McDonald type conglomerates that you portait. Many work closely with their management to find solutions to economic problems and even take concessions when times are tough. Its easy to put everyone in one basket so you can hate them. That seems to be the christian thing to do--then we can crucify the infidels or burn them at the stake.

[scottw]

Originally Posted by Chesapeake Bill

Police and Fire are excluded. Why would they sign on the letter? Where is the original with signatures to give some credibility to the letter? you doubt this?

I never said tehy "lifted the boat." I said they caused change. Not all unions are large evil McDonald...who is evil McDonald? type conglomerates that you portait. Many work closely with their management to find solutions to economic problems and even take concessions when times are tough. Its easy to put everyone in one basket so you can hate them. hate? if you want to see hate just look at your union bretheren and their cohorts around the country That seems to be the christian thing to do--then we can crucify the infidels or burn them at the stake. huh?

I think you went a bit off the thracks there Bill

[Chesapeake Bill]

Originally Posted by scottw

I think you went a bit off the thracks there Bill

First, If you read previous posts you can see that I am not pro or anti union. In many cases they are just as greedy as large corporations and the leaders who run them. I consider McD's a large greedy corporation. A corporation that supports leaders only to gain favors such as exemptions from health care. Given their options they would pay their employees garbage. You can't blame them. They are capitalists. The same way you can't blame people for wanting more wages and benefits. Each uses the tactics they feel will get them to that end. Look at the NFL and the "union" (if you can call it that). Both are positioning to gain maximum economic advantage regardless of what they bring to the table.

Secondly, you fail to address the point that not all unions are bad. Nowhere did I try and defend the union activists any more than I tried to defend the governor. My personal opinion is that both sides are so polarized it really does not matter what anyone thinks.

Third, you keep throwing stats on North Carolina that show it has business potential. Why would I argue that. If you allow businesses to run rampant over their employees and give them lots of tax breaks of course it will look as though it is a great place to go as a business. I didn't see a stat that showed it was a leader in job development (just potential).

Your turn to continue gathering the lions...

[scottw]

Originally Posted by Chesapeake Bill

.

Third, you keep throwing stats on North Carolina that show it has business potential. I didn't see a stat that showed it was a leader in job development (just potential).

...

Federal Bureau of Labor and Statistics show North Carolina is the 3rd best state for declining unemployment and 4th in the nation for job creation...

this is getting boring....reading is fundamental

[scottw]

Originally Posted by Chesapeake Bill

I consider McD's a large greedy corporation. A corporation that supports leaders only to gain favors such as exemptions from health care. Given their options they would pay their employees garbage. You can't blame them. They are capitalists.

Secondly, you fail to address the point that not all unions are bad.

name a good one(union)...this is not a point that you are making but rather a vague generalized statement....how should I "address" it...."all unions are not good?"......I've pointed out that the damage being done far outweighs any benefit and good being done, you mentioned:

"the value that unions bring to a region. Don't get me wrong. I am not defending them. Merely pointing out how the economy changes as a result of their actions, often to the good of the citizens who are not represented "

can you point to something more specific? I know that as a result of the Wisconsin "action" millions of taxpayer dollars have had to be spent to clean up the mess, you might call that economic stimulus?...Obama would....but how have "citizens who are not represented" drawn benefit from union actions?. Last year, Oregon's unions spearheaded a successful battle to pass ballot measures 66 and 67, which collectively raised business and income taxes in the state by an estimated $727 million annually. Led by $2 million from the Oregon Education Association and $1.8 million from the Service Employees International Union (SEIU), unions contributed an estimated 75% of the nearly $7 million raised to promote the tax increases, according to the National Institute on Money in State Politics .

are all capitalists bad Bill?

btw...anecdotal story since you like that stuff, and this one is completely factual...my wife spent more than a month at the Ronald McDonald house in Prov. when our oldest was born prematurely...which happened to coincide with the nurese's strike at Women and Infants...while enjoying the benefits of a comfortable place to recover which was established by a greedy corporation in close proximity from which to travel back and forth to the hospital on foot at all hours of the night to take care of our child we simultaneously enjoyed having to wear special badges when entering and leaving the hospital which identified us, and her particularly as she was not always able to have an escort, to the strikers and supporting thugs surrounding the hospital, the badges were suppose to identify her as a patient so that she would not be harassed and attacked as she left the premesis and were not always acknowledged by the mob...the replacement nurses were subject to harassment, threats, violence and vandalism of their vehicles with every changing shift....I guess you can't blame them...they're unionists...right?

[The Dad Fisherman]

Hooked on Phonics...

[Chesapeake Bill]

Yep, You aren't changing my opinion and I'm not changing yours. Time to move on... See ya..

[zimmy]

El Presidente de los Estados Unidos Jorge W. Bush Defends Immigration Policy

[scottw]

Originally Posted by Chesapeake Bill

Yep, You aren't changing my opinion and I'm not changing yours. Time to move on... See ya..

that should tell you a lot about your "opinion", you simply make statements of opinion with no evidence to back it up beyond some anecdotal beliefs, so I provide facts that clearly disprove your opinion..... and you stand by your "opinion"......is this some odd form of enlightenment where you ignore reality and forge ahead in delusion?

[zimmy]

Interesting points Detbuch. One of my reasons for posting the statistics was specifically to show that using rankings as Scott did doesn't necessarily tell much of the real story. There are dozens of reasons NC falls where it does. I love the place and would love to live in most of the areas I have been to down there. I am curious to know how much of the DC per capita income actually stays in the DC school district. I know a bunch of people, including relatives who work in the city and live outside or even as far as Annapolis. Their kids definitely wouldn't go to the city schools, but the suburbs have very well respected public schools. I have said it many times in these pages and I think it is worth reiterating, trying to connect very complex problems just to unions or one political party is typically not only factual incorrect, but useless.

[JohnnyD]

Oh man, this is a S$#t show I'm glad I've avoided.