Trump

[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by detbuch

While net surfing, saw the headline "Analysis: Donald Trump calling Vladimir Putin a 'genius' was no mistake". It is a CNN article, but I read it anyway, to see what spin they put on it.

And yeah, they did, big time. Spinning into lying. It's that Buck Sexton and Clay Travis podcast that we've discussed on this forum. The article paints Trump as a Putin devotee with whom he sides, even against our country.

Right off the bat, in the headline, they lied. In the interview, Trump did not say that Putin was a genius. He used "genius" in the colloquial manner that he often does to describe really clever things or opinions--this time to comment on Putin's invasion--"This is genius"--which doesn't amount to calling Putin a genius. It's a common expression to describe a particular thing or action, not an unconditional judgment of the doer's mental capacity. And Trump's "Oh, that's wonderful" was pure Trumpian sarcasm. And being "smart" is not an indication of being morally upright or even of being right. Complimenting someone as being smart or doing something smart is not in itself an approval of his character. "I'd say that's pretty smart. He's taking over a country -- really a vast, vast location, a great piece of land with a lot of people, and just walking right in."-- "for two dollars' worth of sanctions." Saying it was "smart" to do that for almost nothing in retribution is not, as a transaction, incorrect. Obviously, Putin miscalculated if he thought the response would be puny in comparison to what he'd get--so he might not be as smart as Trump suggests.

And Trump, the article does not mention, said that the invasion was a disaster.

The article goes on: Then, in a speech at the annual Conservative Political Action Conference last weekend, Trump, again, repeated his praise of Putin. "Yesterday reporters asked me if I thought President Putin was smart," he said. "I said, 'Of course, he's smart,' to which I was greeted with 'Oh, that's such a terrible thing to say.'" I like to tell them, 'Yes, he's smart." Trump obviously likes to poke back at his Press adversaries--they either don't get what he's doing, or they intentionally spin it their way.

The article goes on and links to some timeline, I suppose of Trump praising Putin. I've seen enough selective timelines re Trump to not bother wasting time on it--select what you can spin and disregard the vast residuum of other things Trump has said or done or accomplished. To paint a picture. To create a narrative.

I don't say any of this to "defend" Trump. I would be perfectly happy if he was no longer an issue--whether he was convicted of an actual crime, or was not elected the candidate in the next primary. I am pointing out what is being done on a larger scale to take this country to a place that I do not think is good. And I think Trump is the scapegoat to distract us from the real danger. Paint him as the danger to "our Democracy" while the real culprit, the whole corporate/government/media complex is becoming our ruling class and needs to be exposed. Honest information is needed to fight it. Lies, false narratives, will not help us maintain what is left of our Republic.


https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/polit...?ocid=msedgntp

Oh, the just kidding sarcasm baloney

Trump, is bought and paid for by Putin.
Has been for years

When he lied during the campaign saying that “I have nothing to do with Russia, no deals, no loans, no nothing”
“Russians make up a pretty disproportionate cross-section of a lot of our assets. We see a lot of money pouring in from Russia.”
Eric Trump
“Well, we don’t rely on American banks. We have all the funding we need out of Russia.”
Don Jr
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

Oh, the just kidding sarcasm baloney

Sarcasm is sarcasm. Trump employs a lot of it on a consistent basis. He did so in the Sexton and Travis podcast. It's what he does--whether you think its baloney or not, it's what he does.

Trump, is bought and paid for by Putin.
Has been for years

When he lied during the campaign saying that “I have nothing to do with Russia, no deals, no loans, no nothing”
“Russians make up a pretty disproportionate cross-section of a lot of our assets. We see a lot of money pouring in from Russia.”
Eric Trump
“Well, we don’t rely on American banks. We have all the funding we need out of Russia.”
Don Jr
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

If you have money flowing in and out of Switzerland or Germany, does that mean that Switzerland or Germany own you? For that matter, if your money is tied up in American banks, does that mean you are Biden's puppet?

According to the NY Times, there is no evidence that Trump owes money to Russia: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/13/t...to-russia.html

[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by detbuch

If you have money flowing in and out of Switzerland or Germany, does that mean that Switzerland or Germany own you? For that matter, if your money is tied up in American banks, does that mean you are Biden's puppet?

According to the NY Times, there is no evidence that Trump owes money to Russia: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/13/t...to-russia.html

So you’re claiming that the Trumpkins were lying when they made those claims, interesting
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

So you’re claiming that the Trumpkins were lying when they made those claims, interesting
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

They may have been lying. I don't know specifically what they referring to. I don't know why you would be concerned with someone lying. It's a tactic you use a lot. It's not uncommon. Politics is an arena rich in lies. We are daily lied to by politicians, "intelligence" agencies, news medias, corporations, preachers, ad agencies and all manner of things and people who or which seek to influence us to do or think or believe something.

That's not to say that I think it's a good thing. If the Trumps are guilty of punishable offences, it would be good that they be punished.

But that applies to all the others as well. Many of whom want to punish Trump. My larger concern are the lies perpetrated to transform this country into a centralized power state. It appears to me that this is obviously happening, and the lies to cover it up are so persuasive, or we are so gullible, or we are so needy to hang on to the benefits we are promised and so trusting that we will get them that the lies are OK--no different, perhaps, than those we tell in order to get others to love us, or comfort us, or satisfy our pleasure.

So if Trump's lies are the central, important biggy for you, I can understand your need to daily bang the drum. But when you lie, distort, twist, deceive in order to expose what you consider his lies, and you repeat the lies of those who use Trump as one of their scapegoats to achieve the power to transform this nation into an authoritarian state that proscribes what rights we can have rather than protecting our constitutional unalienable rights, then it's a biggy for me to expose the lies and distortions of you and those you parrot.

[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by detbuch

They may have been lying. I don't know specifically what they referring to. I don't know why you would be concerned with someone lying. It's a tactic you use a lot. It's not uncommon. Politics is an arena rich in lies. We are daily lied to by politicians, "intelligence" agencies, news medias, corporations, preachers, ad agencies and all manner of things and people who or which seek to influence us to do or think or believe something.

That's not to say that I think it's a good thing. If the Trumps are guilty of punishable offences, it would be good that they be punished.

But that applies to all the others as well. Many of whom want to punish Trump. My larger concern are the lies perpetrated to transform this country into a centralized power state. It appears to me that this is obviously happening, and the lies to cover it up are so persuasive, or we are so gullible, or we are so needy to hang on to the benefits we are promised and so trusting that we will get them that the lies are OK--no different, perhaps, than those we tell in order to get others to love us, or comfort us, or satisfy our pleasure.

So if Trump's lies are the central, important biggy for you, I can understand your need to daily bang the drum. But when you lie, distort, twist, deceive in order to expose what you consider his lies, and you repeat the lies of those who use Trump as one of their scapegoats to achieve the power to transform this nation into an authoritarian state that proscribes what rights we can have rather than protecting our constitutional unalienable rights, then it's a biggy for me to expose the lies and distortions of you and those you parrot.

So apparently everyone’s politics are based on the lies they choose to believe and repeat, except for the truth that comes from YouTube
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

So apparently everyone’s politics are based on the lies they choose to believe and repeat, except for the truth that comes from YouTube
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

What I am interested in is preserving and maintaining our constitutional republic. I understand that within its structure of freedom humans will act human. Which includes lying. And telling the truth. And, within that structure, we will protect the freedom of individuals to do those and many creative, beautiful, inspiring, inventive, (and even dumb) things that centralized authoritarian states will not tolerate and will punish if they do not fit within the regulations they impose in order to achieve some probably impossible "equity" if they pretend to "liberate" the people, or, otherwise, if they merely want to dictatorially hang on to power.

I believe that the Progressivism you favor is the false promise of those who think that "liberation" can only be achieved through the power of an authoritarian, unlimited, central state.

[Pete F.]

Your “liberation” has resulted in the highest healthcare costs in the world, a poverty rate far higher than the United States ranking by gdp and a democracy rating that is now categorized as flawed.
Yes, tell me how with zero governmental interference all would be well
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

Your “liberation” has resulted in the highest healthcare costs in the world, a poverty rate far higher than the United States ranking by gdp and a democracy rating that is now categorized as flawed.
Yes, tell me how with zero governmental interference all would be well
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

The Constitution gives enough leeway for the government to "interfere". And after a century of excessive government "interference" beyond its constitutional limitations we are in a condition you don't seem to approve of.

Yet you seem to think that if we just go whole hog and let the government do whatever interference it claims will fix it, then it all will be good. Or at least we all will have the same equal high quality government mandated "healthcare." Probably not. Corrupt Government is easily bribed by those evil one percenters that you don't like and who lord it over the rest of us. No doubt, however, they will see to it that the government they are in bed with will get good democracy ratings.

And it's not my liberation. It's yours. Your the one who wants authoritarian government. The Constitution protects enough of our freedoms if the politicians rule within its bounds. But . . . healthcare . . . we just won't get the proper statistics by world ranking if we don't let the government do what's necessary, in the minds of authoritarian equity seekers, to equalize the global statistics of the global community. No doubt the benevolent dictators will see to it that the statistics will show that they know best, that they have given us what we really need, and will show that they deserve their exorbitant rewards.

[Pete F.]

Almost immediately after Trump was inaugurated, the first people he invited to the Oval Office were the Russians Sergei Lavrov & Sergey Kislyak. Trump was literally giddy during the visit. Today Lavrov threatens nukes. Never forget.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

Almost immediately after Trump was inaugurated, the first people he invited to the Oval Office were the Russians Sergei Lavrov & Sergey Kislyak. Trump was literally giddy during the visit. Today Lavrov threatens nukes. Never forget.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Not worth remembering.

[Pete F.]

Remember when Trump actually proposed creating an “impenetrable Cyber Security unit” with Vladimir Putin?
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[Pete F.]

John Bolton says that he, Pompeo and Esper were “appalled” at how Trump treated Ukraine, that he believes that Trump was going to pull the US out of NATO in his 2nd term, and that is what Putin was waiting for before moving forward with plans to invade Ukraine.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

Remember when Trump actually proposed creating an “impenetrable Cyber Security unit” with Vladimir Putin?
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

He obviously wanted to overthrow the U.S. government and make America a Russian satelite.

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

John Bolton says that he, Pompeo and Esper were “appalled” at how Trump treated Ukraine, that he believes that Trump was going to pull the US out of NATO in his 2nd term, and that is what Putin was waiting for before moving forward with plans to invade Ukraine.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

I remember Bolton, Pompeo, and Esper being trashed as dangers to democracy by the legacy Progressive Democrat puppet mainstream media.

[Pete F.]

“Trump mused to donors…we should take our F-22 planes, ‘put the Chinese flag on them and bomb the #^&#^&#^&#^&’ out of Russia. ‘And then we say, China did it, we didn't do, China did it, and then they start fighting with each other and we sit back and watch.’”
Now consider the destruction associated with the BLM protests
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[wdmso]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

“Trump mused to donors…we should take our F-22 planes, ‘put the Chinese flag on them and bomb the #^&#^&#^&#^&’ out of Russia. ‘And then we say, China did it, we didn't do, China did it, and then they start fighting with each other and we sit back and watch.’”
Now consider the destruction associated with the BLM protests
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Pete that was just hyperbole didn’t you know that! LOL

And The vote counter is oftentimes more important than the candidate and the Republicans are going to have to get a lot tougher,
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

“Trump mused to donors…we should take our F-22 planes, ‘put the Chinese flag on them and bomb the #^&#^&#^&#^&’ out of Russia. ‘And then we say, China did it, we didn't do, China did it, and then they start fighting with each other and we sit back and watch.’”
Now consider the destruction associated with the BLM protests
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

He's Putin's puppet.

[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by detbuch

He's Putin's puppet.

Rest easy, the guy who said to rake the forest and water-bomb the cathedral and nuke the hurricane is here to tell us exactly how he would win a war against Russia
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[Got Stripers]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

Rest easy, the guy who said to rake the forest and water-bomb the cathedral and nuke the hurricane is here to tell us exactly how he would win a war against Russia
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Now that’s funny!

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

Rest easy, the guy who said to rake the forest and water-bomb the cathedral and nuke the hurricane is here to tell us exactly how he would win a war against Russia
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Putin must have ordered his puppet to say those things.

[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by detbuch

Putin must have ordered his puppet to say those things.

Actually that he’s stupid enough to make and believe those claims is how he qualified to be Putin’s Puppet.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

Actually that he’s stupid enough to make and believe those claims is how he qualified to be Putin’s Puppet.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

so Putin waited until after his puppet was gone, to invade and alienate russia from the entire western world

makes sense.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

Actually that he’s stupid enough to make and believe those claims is how he qualified to be Putin’s Puppet.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

That makes no sense. You wouldn't want your puppet to be unpredictable and stupid and threaten your security through stupid blunders that could blow up in your face. You don't want your puppet to be an uncontrollable mad man, stupid enough, insane enough, to bring you down in unpredictable ways.

Are you saying you believe Trump was telling the "truth"? So when and how can you tell when he really means what he says, or being sarcastically funny, or sarcastically sarcastic, or lying, or just plain totally stupid no matter what he says?

[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

so Putin waited until after his puppet was gone, to invade and alienate russia from the entire western world

makes sense.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

The story of Putin is a little more complicated than this

Former National Security Advisor John Bolton says 'Putin was waiting' for Trump to withdraw the United States from NATO in his second term
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

The story of Putin is a little more complicated than this

Former National Security Advisor John Bolton says 'Putin was waiting' for Trump to withdraw the United States from NATO in his second term
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

And many other people say Putin was waiting for a weakling to be POTUS.

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

And many other people say Putin was waiting for a weakling to be POTUS.

And he invaded while the U.S. is still a part of NATO. So the idea that he was waiting for us to withdraw is a crock.

And Europe is doing more to bring Putin down now. Putin invading Ukraine has awakened the EU up to the fact that it has to be strong enough to defend against Russia with or without the U.S., or with less dependence on us and more backbone of its own.

Putin may well have waited for a weaker US in tandem with what he saw as a weak disunited Europe. Certainly before Ukraine and other European countries joined NATO.

[Pete F.]

Putin expected Trump to be re-elected. He and his apparatchiks had done everything in their power to assure it. His ministers had told him it was assured. He expected Trump to withdraw from NATO.

When that plain failed to come to fruition, he made choices based on his worldview and the information presented to him.

For that I think Andrei Kozyrev has an insightful look at Putin.

“ First of all, I want to examine where the questioning of Putin’s rationality started. I think it began because most people, particularly in the West, view his decision to invade Ukraine as utterly irrational. I disagree. It’s horrific, but not irrational.”
“ To understand why the invasion was rational for Putin, we have to step into his shoes. Three beliefs came together at the same time in his calculus:
1. Ukraine’s condition as a country
2. Russian military’s condition
3. The West’s geopolitical condition”

“1. Ukraine’s condition. Putin spent the last 20 years believing that Ukraine is not a real nation and, at best, should be a satellite state. Maidan ended any hope of keeping Ukraine independent and pro-Kremlin. He thought the West was behind it.
If Ukraine’s government cannot be kept independent and pro-Kremlin covertly, as he likely concluded, then he will overtly force it to be. He also started to believe his own propagandists that Ukraine is run by a Nazi-Bandera junta. Perfect pretext to “de-Nazify” Ukraine.

2. Russian military. The Kremlin spent the last 20 years trying to modernize its military. Much of that budget was stolen and spent on mega-yachts in Cyprus. But as a military advisor you cannot report that to the President. So they reported lies to him instead. Potemkin military

3. The West. The Russian ruling elite believed its own propaganda that Pres. Biden is mentally inept. They also thought the EU was weak because of how toothless their sanctions were in 2014. And then the U.S. botched its withdrawal from Afghanistan, solidifying this narrative.

If you believe all three of the above to be true and your goal is to restore the glory of the Russian Empire (whatever that means), then it is perfectly rational to invade Ukraine.

He miscalculated on all three, but that doesn’t make him insane. Simply wrong and immoral.

So, in my opinion, he is rational. Given that he is rational, I strongly believe he will not intentionally use nuclear weapons against the West. I say intentionally because indiscriminate shelling near a nuclear power plant can cause an unintentional nuclear disaster in Ukraine.

I will take it a step further. The threat of nuclear war is another example of his rationality. The Kremlin knows it can try to extract concessions, whether from Ukraine or the West, by saber-rattling its last remaining card in the deck: nuclear weapons.
The ultimate conclusion here is that the West should not agree to any unilateral concessions or limit its support of Ukraine too much for the fear of nuclear war.”
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[Got Stripers]

One stars in the Budweiser commercials and the other is a horses arse, staring only in the reality show running in is messed up mind.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by detbuch

And he invaded while the U.S. is still a part of NATO. So the idea that he was waiting for us to withdraw is a crock.

exactly.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[Pete F.]

PUTIN’S PLAN SHOWS WHY HE DIDN’T INVADE UKRAINE UNDER TRUMP.

The “peace deal” he just offered is the same kind of deal trump allies were trying to get for Putin.

As long as what Putin wanted was on the table, there was no need to invade.

According to the Mueller report, and a sloppily redacted filing by Manafort, Pauly Walnuts and sanctioned Russian spy Kilimnik worked on the “Ukraine Peace Plan”. According to documents, the plan was to put Yanukovic back in power in Ukraine and carve it up for Putin.

Manafort worked for Yanukovich - trying to make him a more likable guy. He was paid by Deripaska who eventually sued him, but when Manafort got the job grooming trump to install him for Putin, Manafort indicated he would make Deripaska “whole”.

Van der Zwaan - son-in-law of Alfa Bank mogul German Khan, was indicted by Mueller for lying about on behalf of Yanukovich by bad mouthing his opponent, Tymoshenko without registering as a foreign agent.

Kilimnik also had another “Ukraine peace plan” in the works called “The Mariupol Plan”. So while Manafort was trying to install Donald, he was helping Russian-backed separatists with a plan that would hand Ukraine back to Putin. Is this making more sense now?

Another “peace plan” was worked on by Cohen, Flynn, and Artymenko. And we all remember Manafort, along with Dearborn and Mashburn #^&#^&#^&#^&ing up the Ukraine language in the GOP platform in Cleveland.

So Russia was helping donald win the election while his allies were putting together plans to drop sanctions and hand Ukraine over to Putin. Manafort was there for all of it, and donald pardoned him. And when Ukraine wasn’t down with the plan, donald withheld aid.

Rudy and his pals got Yovanovitch out of the way and worked to extort Zelenskyy for fake dirt on Biden so donald could stay in power and continue to pursue Putin’s plan for Ukraine. But donald lost. With the trump “peace plan” off the table, Putin invaded.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device