Lack of capable "tradesmen"

[Pete F.]

Originally Posted by Rmarsh

Good point.
When I wanted to educate myself on construction estimating I bought a couple of books from RSMeans. For starters they break it down to four basic categories of construction, economy, average, custom, and luxury. The books were somewhat useful to me .....but I always fell back to stick by stick estimates to arrive at a number....then divided by square foot....every job was a different sq. ft. price. because of the variables. They have dozens of books on estimating...residential, remodelers guide, commercial etc.

They are not cheap....current issue in the picture is $398.

I always did quantity takeoff and then framing labor by crew days.
Like basement walls day, first floor platform 2 days, first floor walls 3 days.
Exterior and interior finish labor was based on quantity takeoff.
I used one book for labor for odd things that I was worried about covering.
The trick to estimating is making sure you cover everything and have good sub coverage, you’ll be light and heavy on things but the project manager should be able to deal with it if he has a clue.
Of course as a friend of mine says, estimating is figuring out how long it’s going to take a guy you don’t know to do something you’ve never done.
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[Rmarsh]

I always had the advantage of knowing my crew and whatever work the job entailed. But estimating labor in particular has variables.....everyday is not a 10!
Got quotes from all my subs and material suppliers every time so no guessing there.
Also did job costing as the work progressed......and compared actual costs to estimate when the job was completed. It helped me make better judgement of where I was off.
When I gave a price it was not really an estimate....and I never lowered my price when customers tried beating me down.......my prices were never padded...for negotiating purposes.....but there was extra money in there for difficult or shady customers.
Whenever I met with potential customers....i was sizing them up just as they were with me. I trust my instincts.

[Rmarsh]

The term "tradesman" refers to someone who works with their hands.... and gets them dirty. Unfortunately there seems to be a widespread assumption that it means they cant be very smart....a lot of white collar college educated folks look down their noses at us with an air of superiority.

[redlite]

Originally Posted by Rmarsh

The term "tradesman" refers to someone who works with their hands.... and gets them dirty. Unfortunately there seems to be a widespread assumption that it means they cant be very smart....a lot of white collar college educated folks look down their noses at us with an air of superiority.

Ummm. My wife. She says not why I went to college.
I say Jesus was a carpenter
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[Rmarsh]

Originally Posted by redlite

Ummm. My wife. She says not why I went to college.
I say Jesus was a carpenter
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And a jewish carpenter at that! Very few of those these days.
I knew one but he was a polish catholic....converted to get married.....never lasted.

[Rmarsh]

It all comes down to apprenticeship...training, study and repetition.
How many of todays "carpenters" have studied and understand the the function and tables on the steel square....the real one....not a speed square or phony framing square? I will tell you its not very many.

[Guppy]

Originally Posted by Rmarsh

Good point.
When I wanted to educate myself on construction estimating I bought a couple of books from RSMeans. For starters they break it down to four basic categories of construction, economy, average, custom, and luxury. The books were somewhat useful to me .....but I always fell back to stick by stick estimates to arrive at a number....then divided by square foot....every job was a different sq. ft. price. because of the variables. They have dozens of books on estimating...residential, remodelers guide, commercial etc.

They are not cheap....current issue in the picture is $398.

Way back when I had a steady diet of framing 3 bedroom ranches, I’d keep track of square foot framed by man hr. , framed, trimmed, windows, interior partitions,,,, if I remember right,,, 6 to 7 square foot per man hr., this was a great help trying to come up with an accurate bid $$$….. same for capes, full dormers, set back dormers,,, etc.

Now I fish …. :-)

[Rmarsh]

Originally Posted by Guppy

Way back when I had a steady diet of framing 3 bedroom ranches, I’d keep track of square foot framed by man hr. , framed, trimmed, windows, interior partitions,,,, if I remember right,,, 6 to 7 square foot per man hr., this was a great help trying to come up with an accurate bid $$$….. same for capes, full dormers, set back dormers,,, etc.

Now I fish …. :-)

I am in a good place right now....i make this kitchen installing gig look like childs play. No more estimating jobs for tight wads! Work hourly now so I cant be screwed with.

[Rmarsh]

Lack of capable tradesmen goes hand in hand with the lack of work ethic in the general population today.....along with the prevailing attitude that "work sucks".
If you were to run an add for construction workers how many applicants do you think would have these traits? I've hired dozens of guys and learned to keep my expectations low.
appearance, attendance, attitude, character, communication, cooperation, organizational skills, productivity, respect and teamwork
BTW.... Mike Rowe is an excellent ambassador for the trades....hes doing a lot to help with the problem.

[Slipknot]

I admire Mike Rowe right up there with Norm Abram.
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[Rmarsh]

Originally Posted by Slipknot

I admire Mike Rowe right up there with Norm Abram.
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"America is lending money it doesn't have to kids who can’t pay it back to train them for jobs that no longer exist. That’s nuts.”- Mike Rowe

We recognize that a good education doesn’t always require a four-year degree. That’s why we look for people who aren’t afraid to learn a useful skill and work their butts off, like work ethic scholarship recipients.


In the long history of bad advice, you’d have to look pretty hard to find something dumber than Work Smart Not Hard.



In 1977, a version of this poster hung in my guidance counselor’s office and was part of a recruitment campaign for college. It was bad advice then, but today, it’s just plain dangerous. Google, “Work Smart Not Hard,” and you’ll see just how far this idiotic cliché has wormed its way into our collective conscious over the last forty years. It’s repeated daily by millions of people like some timeless chestnut of conventional wisdom. Is it possible we actually believe such nonsense? You bet it is.
Consider the reality of today’s job market. We have a massive skills gap. Even with record unemployment, millions of skilled jobs are unfilled because no one is trained or willing to do them. Meanwhile, unemployment among college graduates is at an all-time high, and the majority of those graduates with jobs aren’t even working in their field of study. Plus, they collectively owe $1.5 trillion in student loans. $1.5 TRILLION! And still, we push a four-year degree as the best way for the most people to find a successful career?
The evidence suggests we’ve taken some very bad advice and tried to separate hard work from success. Consequently, we’ve become profoundly disconnected from a critical part of our workforce. The skilled part. The part that keeps the lights on. That’s just crazy. In a sane world, there should be posters hanging in high schools that reflect the reality of the situation we’re in. Wouldn’t it make more sense to promote Work Smart AND Hard?
So…with a little creative license (and no respect for the original), I’m pleased to present a new platitude with a different attitude.

- Mike Rowe

[Rmarsh]

More wisdom from a guy who gets it.
It might be sacrilegious to compare but imo right up there with the Ten Commandments.

https://www.mikeroweworks.org/wp-con...ockup_Crop.png

[Got Stripers]

No matter what job I had and like most, I’ve had a lot; I always strived to do my very best. I always earned my money and many times, I deserved far more, but was always happy to have a job. While I don’t look forward to turning 70 this May, I’m glad I lived my life when I did, I can’t imagine what this world will look like in thirty years.

[Rmarsh]

In pursuit of teaching myself all i could about home building...I first learned how to read blueprints......the next step was making my own drawings using a drafting board, scaled ruler, triangle and mechanical pencil.
When autocad came along I told my father I intended to take courses offered at a local college.
His comment to me was..."why pay someone to tell you to open a book...its something you can teach yourself...I got the program .....used the tutorials and did just that. Had a job drawing commercial millwork jobs for a few years and was very good at it ....also have drawn complete sets of house plans...but found I wasn't happy sitting at a computer all day. But my dad helped me realize how much I can learn on my own. I had the motivation...kept practicing until I got it.