Striped Bass, the condition of the fishery

[inTHERAPY]

This "IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT JAN. 14 2009 – LEGISLATORS WORKING WITH STRIPERS FOREVER HAVE FILED GAME FISH LEGISLATION IN THIS SESSION OF THE MA LEGISLATURE" has caused me to reflect on the condition of our striped bass fishery. I think many of us can agree that the fishery is not what it once was, after restoration. I'm not looking to finger point toward comm. guys, trophy seasons, rec guys, trawlers, environmental factors, etc.
I am wondering "what can be done about it". As long as fishermen are within their legal right to take fish, that fact can not be changed. So, that being said, I guess the fact of the matter comes down to state and federal agencies protecting the fishery for us. How does one go about making a difference?
Please take the time to read the entire attachment by Jim White. Your thoughts are much appreciated. Art

[Flaptail]

This year we saw many fish in the Buzzards Bay fishery with signs of infection. Again though, I think Stripers Forever has missed the point entirely. Stress induced deseases such as Myco bacteriosis have a much more profound effect on the stock if the stock cannot find the nutritional resources it needs to sustain itself, namely forage species such as Menhaden, River Herring, squid, crabs , lobsters and the myriad smaller species such as silversides, sandeels, anchovies and mullet.

Why elevate the bass to gamefish status only to watch it's stock numbers soar then be unable to feed itself? Human populations have demonstrated this is untenable over the centuries. One only has to look to china, India, North Korea and a host of African countries to see what affect over population verses the ability to adeqautely find or produce the staples of life have on a population. Starvation is a hard way to go for any animal including humans or fish.

The report by Capt. White acknowledges assumptions, responsible reporting on any given theory must always rely on fact not assumptive theory. This then leads to groups like Stripers Forever to take this assumptive "model" and spin it to thier cause.

That the fish are under some kind of stress is plainly evident, the cause of it calls for prudent action with solid facts and not rushing to action on a "carpe diem" basis.

The call to action should start in intelligent analysis with all factors considered. The most important factor in this investigation should be the state of the basses forage species. One shouldn't cry wolf without hard data and should do so without assumptions.

[Crafty Angler]

Well said again, Flap...

Whoops, this is how it started the last time....

Relative to legislative actions to protect the fishery, I've almost finished reading Striper Wars - and at this point I think I can say at least the Prologue was accurate for the most part in terms of the basic biology and reproduction cycles...and after that it begins to swirl around the drain at a increasingly faster rate in some of the following chapters.

There are some real leaps of logic in the book regarding conservation that are glaringly obvious to me if you actually know the stories beforehand as well as a number of other important points that Russell either passes over quickly or ignores altogether. You do have to pick and choose through material wisely I guess -

Anyway, from my perspective, Flap has hit it dead on the nuts - fix the forage base first to reduce the stress if you want a more robust stock. And that's a very tall order.

Given the importance of the subject, let's try to keep the discussion gentlemanly and intelligent - while most of us are in the grips of the shack nasties, at the very least, we can agree to disagree.

We've got a good collection of pretty smart guys here at S-B from a lot of different disiplines and backgrounds and perhaps we can come up with an idea for an effective solution beyond what has already been proposed.

[inTHERAPY]

Well put gentlemen. So far so good. I am in no way a proponent for Stripers Forever. That is a totally different discussion. Issues of particular concern are the facts that ASMFC has not acknowledged any health isssue, claiming stocks to be in good health through 2015 (!), and the really low YOY class fish at 3.9. I may be incorrect but isn't the number considered "healthy" 8.0

[MakoMike]

Originally Posted by inTHERAPY

Well put gentlemen. So far so good. I am in no way a proponent for Stripers Forever. That is a totally different discussion. Issues of particular concern are the facts that ASMFC has not acknowledged any health isssue, claiming stocks to be in good health through 2015 (!), and the really low YOY class fish at 3.9. I may be incorrect but isn't the number considered "healthy" 8.0

As I recall anything over around 5 is considered good. 8 is very good and those were the kind of numbers that brought the bass back. Recent years have seen very low YOY indexes, but, those fish wouldn't have entered the breeding population yet anyway. ASMFC has said NOTHING about 2015, or any year beyond 2009. All they have said is that the stck is still in good shape as of 2008.

[inTHERAPY]

Originally Posted by MakoMike

As I recall anything over around 5 is considered good. 8 is very good and those were the kind of numbers that brought the bass back. Recent years have seen very low YOY indexes, but, those fish wouldn't have entered the breeding population yet anyway. ASMFC has said NOTHING about 2015, or any year beyond 2009. All they have said is that the stck is still in good shape as of 2008.

The source, Capt. Jim White's article in the RISAA newsletter, Myobacteriosis, paragraph 8, has a quote from ASMFC say SOMETHING about 2015. I have included the article as an attatchment in the first post. have you read it and know that quote to be false. Art

[JohnR]

Couple different tracks with the same total problem - condition of the fishery and stocks.

Closing the commercial fishery is not going to do much to help the stock - just rearranges the deck chairs a little. It is an allocation issue. If you want to reduce pressure on the fish, reduce the take by all parties.

Forage, Pogies FohRevvah! - This is what we need - protect the forage!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jim White's take on Myco - yes, there are a lot of assumptions. Sadly Fisheries Managements deals a lot in assumptions. Assuming () that things are half as bad as Jim assumes, than we have a problem. This NEEDS to be looked into and factored into the stock assessments.

Sorry, I'm not big on Gamefish Status and I really don't have a dog in that fight. I really think Stripers Forever could do far more good for the Stripers we all want to keep for Forever if they focused their attention on the fish, not who gets to pursue them.

[Crafty Angler]

Originally Posted by Crafty Angler

...Whoops, this is how it started the last time....

...Given the importance of the subject, let's try to keep the discussion gentlemanly and intelligent - while most of us are in the grips of the shack nasties, at the very least, we can agree to disagree...

Well, it sounded good on paper, anyway.........

[Slipknot]

Originally Posted by Flaptail

Why elevate the bass to gamefish status only to watch it's stock numbers soar then be unable to feed itself?

May I also add that with those increased numbers, their predators(seals) will flourish even more by chowing on more bass than they already do now, and why is that? because seals have been given free reign gamefish status, no I mean protection. We will be eating seals soon, because that's all that's left

[maddmatt]

Originally Posted by Slipknot

May I also add that with those increased numbers, their predators(seals) will flourish even more by chowing on more bass than they already do now, and why is that? because seals have been given free reign gamefish status, no I mean protection. We will be eating seals soon, because that's all that's left

seal tastes good.... boilem , mashem, put them in a stew.

[Canalman]

"The new Massachusetts Striped Bass Conservation Bill prohibits the sale of wild striped bass in the Commonwealth and sets a recreational daily bag limit of one striper measuring between 20 and 26 inches, or alternatively, one fish of 40 inches or greater per angler."

This is a direct quote from their press release

[Clammer]

Dave ;;

I agree & disagree ;;

that bill or whatever is only in Mass . so yes it will put the mass commercials OOB / & with a slot / have it more difficult to keep a bas s . But lets be realistic
I don,t know all the numbers especially by state .. RI,s commercial R & R season is a joke / 5 fish a day per week /with the days being Sunday Thru Thursday . & the spring season closing in two weeks or less / while the fall season can start as 3 or 5 fish a day / then they close it short again / even if the fish arn,t coming in / then they open it again & in the last few years its been open longer /because by then they can,t reach the yearly Quota so they have opened it to draggers .
The traps are part of the quota & the size they are allowed to sell is smaller than the R&R .
IMO .. do you really thing stopping just MA , R&R from commercial fishing & a slot is going to turn this around .
For the most part / Ma commercial season was a bust . not many boats did 30 per day / & for those that did there were plenty that couldn,t get 5 /
After all this is said & done / how is this going t change the status of the striper population .
Millions & millions of pounds will still be taken by rec,s up & down the coast & add the commercial dragging that is allowed down south ... It looks ike from here .. that its a sword thru the Ma R&R & a band aid to the mass REC,s
have have no interest in Mass commercial tooooo F #$%^&*( old to play that game anymore ;
bait or no bait . it does have some effect /but the actual reduction of the stripers [again] is a combination of all of the above / plus pollution issue .s & disease ;;;
the C/B had a 25 year plan to clean it up / but as I said before it was a recommendation //& not a law / so the fencing that was suppose to keep the actual [%$%$%$%$} from farm animals washing into the small creeks & streams & eventually into the C/b system . never happened & now 25 years lTER & AROUND 6 BILLION DOLLARS LIGHT / THEY are talking about doing approx the same thing . / by excluding the famers / mostly the chicken farmers ;

If anyone has worked on a dragger of anysize [even] for a week / then they have seen what they catch & what by catch / undersize / off season fish are sholved back over the side ;;;

this is a whole lot larger than Stripers forever going to try & make it a game fish in JUST Mass .

that would do as much good as pouring a 8oz . glass on beer in a 55gal. barrel that has a whole in it ;;;

Just my honest opinion & observation of being on the water 50 years .. not 3 months on weelends .,.,

Carry on MIKE

[RIROCKHOUND]

Either 1 fish @36"
OR a slot limit like Maine coast wide.
1 @ either 20-26" or over 40" NO more 2 fish...
Fix the forage (which does not mean ban ALL menhaden fishing)
Tighter regulations on pirates/poachers.

[JohnnyD]

Originally Posted by RIROCKHOUND

Tighter regulations on pirates/poachers.

This is one that I strongly agree with. Everyone still remember the news article from a few weeks ago - $500 fine for a few tons of bass, and the third offense that week alone.

When I'm at the canal, I appreciate that the Rangers drive up and down checking people's catch, pulling the measuring tape out. Even still, you find people keeping shorts all the time at the canal. It's certainly impossible to catch everyone, but how about we make it really bad for the ones that are caught. At the very least, "You have 3 shorts in your cooler, and this is not your first offense... Thanks for the pickup truck and nice fishing gear."

Some people might say that fines would be ineffective because some people keeping shorts may be poor. Fine, take all of their gear and every piece of fishing equipment in their truck.

[NIB]

Originally Posted by RIROCKHOUND

Either 1 fish @36"
OR a slot limit like Maine coast wide.
1 @ either 20-26" or over 40" NO more 2 fish...
Fix the forage (which does not mean ban ALL menhaden fishing)
Tighter regulations on pirates/poachers.

If our stocks are in trouble do you think it is wise to take a fish that has not yet had the chance to spawn..And easier to catch..
Perhaps a slot of 1 @ 28-34 inches would be better along with one over 45 inches.A truer trophy size type allotment.

I happen to agree I think the stocks are off.I think there are many reasons why from the big trawlers taking herring and mackerel and the like to seals who are ravenous feeders of the forage fish also to the condition of the waters in the breeding grounds.The Hudson fishery is in no great shakes either.The herring run which coincides with the migratory spawning run of the bass is gone....I think at this point any step towards conservation is a good one. We have to start somewhere and build off of it.You cannot ask the herring boats to stop taking the forage till we do what we can on our end as rec's to protect the fishery.
I think one only has to look at the situation of the cod stoicks to see the management of the waters of the GOM need some serious attention..I have seen too many fisheries disappear to never return..

[RIJIMMY]

Flap and Crafty, I am ignorant to this whole subject and really rely on what educated people say on the topic, however I don't understand the fix the bait logic. I guess I see tons of bait. Menhaden have made a major comeback, we've had some massive squid runs over the last 5 yrs or so. What issues do you see with the bait? I think nature has a way of fisinxg that. If the amounts of the striped bass were to suddenly increase, wouldnt they just seek new species to forage on? Theres plenty od snapper blues, crabs, etc?
Not arguing, just done understand the logic.
If I was king for a day, I'd make a 1 fish limit and no commercial. Selfishly just so there are more fish to catch for me. I dont understand the science

[FishermanTim]

I believe the forage / baitfish issue is not just for the northeast, but the entire eastern seaboard. If the fish spawning down south are starving due to overfishing for menhaden, it will directly affect the future stock of fish that will eventually migrate here each spring.
Underfed, weak and diseased fish will drop out of the spawning cycle, decreasing the YOY each season.

I agree that just (over)regulating the striper catches isn't going to fix the stocks overall health. Something needs to be done to keep the menhaden, herring, squid and other baitfish IN THE BASS'S LIFECYCLE and not on our grocery/baitshop shelves.

[Justfishin']

I've been saying the same damn thing since I joined the site seven years ago-and I've been jumped on for it. But I don't care. Monitor and regulate the forage base throughout the gamefishes range. Limit the comm. fishing to people who fish for a living, not weekend warriors who want to make a quick buck yo-yoing. And, like it or not, we probably need to have a recreational licensing program to help pay for monitoring the increasing number of anglers.(and poachers)

[MAKAI]

Gotta admit human involvement is all over this problem. Pollution,big buisness, commercials and recs. We all have our hands in the pie. Personally I blame it all on the seals, including the economy,Iraq,liberals,etc.

[Back Beach]

Anecdotally speaking here, but starvation is about the last culprit I would suspect right now. In fact I saw more well fed fish in 2008 than I've seen in 20 plus years of fishing. Probably the abundance of bunker I would guess.

[MAKAI]

Not where we used to fish Mike. Most were pretty lean. However when trolling squid bars with mark out on stellwagon, very fat fish would come up into the spread, good eats out there I suppose. Some of my best bass were caught on the 130's, shame.

[JohnR]

Originally Posted by Back Beach

Anecdotally speaking here, but starvation is about the last culprit I would suspect right now. In fact I saw more well fed fish in 2008 than I've seen in 20 plus years of fishing. Probably the abundance of bunker I would guess.

Good point, Mike. Often times, we equate the quality of fish with what we experience personally. This may or may not be representative of the big picture. paraphrasing you a little

[MikeToole]

Having fished for stripers for over 45-years and doing about 100 trips a season I have experienced about the same results as Steve put in his post. Being at the northern end of the stripers range I think we may see issue before others. Over the last six years I've seen a real decrease in the number of fish. Last season there were more bigger fish then I've seen in any season but the drop in the number of small fish was scary. This is about the same as I saw in New Jersey when I lived there just before the stock collapse.

Unlike others I am a strong supporter of making stripers a game fish. The reason mainly is how do you convince fisherman to let stripers go when others are catching them for money. It is a standard reason I here from people who keep every legal fish they catch. Also from an economic stand point and human standpoint the most important group in the quest for stripers is the recreational fisherman. The money coming from the sale of stripers is nothing compared to the money spent by recreational fisherman. Plus, if you made stripers a game fish then I think more people would be open to stricter limits.

It is often said that the striper recovery shows what good management can do. To me the recovery should be looked at a miracle. If that large young of the year class had not come out of no where the recovery either never would have happened or it would have been much slower. Just look at what is happening up on the grand banks with cod.

[bill huki]

You can trust the govt and thier scientists. Before you do go to fisheries meetings for a few years. Look the people sitting at the tables in front in the eye and make a judgement.

Consider how the country has done the past 8 years with the experts in charge.

Just food for thought.

[CaptMike]

I don't know if gamefish status is the answer but I wouldn't mind it to be honest. Managing the menhaden will definitely help but killing fewer bass is the surest way to increase the population. Whether this is done by cutting back the rec or comm amount taken is academic it just needs to be done. I imagine the easiest way would be to cut back both, this way neither side feels shortchanged. Other steps to manage the chesapeake as well as forage also need to be taken but I think as far as Striped Bass are concerned killing fewer of them is the first and surest way to help them.

[EarnedStripes44]

he's right about the cheasapeake. The health of the largest estuary in the United States is comparable to a morbidly obese woman.

[Canalman]

Not sure if somebody already said this because I got sick of reading all the posts, but the bill proposes the closure of the commercial fishery and imposing a slot limit on the recreational angler (exactly the same as Maine's).

To say that closing the commerical fishery won't help is ludicrous! If you take the privillege of taking 30 fish per day away from the best striper anglers in the world you're going to save a lot of fish.

Anyone who thinks that Stripers Forever is going to then run with this and take away striper fishing or something silly like that is lost in space. Just like people who are afraid the president is going to take away guns or something like that, their ideas have to be voted upon and therefore no one person or oragnizations beliefs can be forced into law. I hear the voices of some people who are going to miss taking a few weeks off from work in the summer to go fishing everyday if this bill passes in this thread.

It has already been proven that fisheries managers and fishermen have no idea how to fish with care and that we have no problem (or qualms about) pushing fish stocks to their breaking point. There are just about no inshore cod left anywhere south of Plymouth (to my knowledge) and the cod stocks in the Maritimes have not recovered after a 10 year moratorium. Our fishermen are very good at what they do and these voices in here sound eerily the same as those that echoed out in the years before the last collapse.

How can you say that closing the commercial fishery won't work? It worked last time! And it's at least a step right direction, if we get people used to the idea of conserving a commercially harvested fish, it might be easier to turn them on the menhaden and sea herring.

Preserving the species should be 100 times more important than making some extra cash this summer. Yes I had my commercial license last year, but it just gave me a sick feeling killing all those fish and I have chosen not to renew it this year.

I say close it up, and bring on the slot limit, we haven't tried that combo yet and we need to save these fish, and we shouldn't wait until it looks really bad.

If you don't like Stripers Forever, (I have no opinion about them btw), then someone needs to form a new organization, because they are the only people actively fighting for anything releated to the striped bass in the mainstream anyway. Maybe RFA should get involved? Or maybe all of us should stop crying online and make a step for own future instead of just sitting by and then sobbing over the results?

Was that too cut throat?

[MakoMike]

One fact that all you guy screaming about the menhaden need to take into account. When stripers are first born and in their larval stages in the chessie and hudson, menhaden are their biggest predators.

[FishermanTim]

As is the american eel.
Isn't funny that when they get larger they turn the tables?

[MagicWand]

Originally Posted by MakoMike

One fact that all you guy screaming about the menhaden need to take into account. When stripers are first born and in their larval stages in the chessie and hudson, menhaden are their biggest predators.

Nature knows what it,s doing. It,s been doing it for millions of years. And now your going to step in with a better plan. laughable..priceless.