Gun Owners.. Ball is in your court

[Nebe]

There's been a decline because many people have probably realized that religion isn't really a free ticket to heaven. Children today learn far more early in life that there is no Easter bunny Santa Claus either.
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[Nebe]

I'm sorry if I'm sounding like a #^&#^&#^&#^& but what grinds my gears is anyone who thinks what they believe would be better for someone else.
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[ecduzitgood]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

The fact that you would deny that (in the case of most religions, certainly in the case of Christianity and Judaism), displays your ignorance and/or hatred.

Any huge group of people will have a few evil apples, I don't think there are any exceptions to that. But those evil people aren't inspired by anything that is taught as a cornerstone of their faith.

For example, there was obviously a huge problem with Catholics and pedophiles (more accurately, with Catholics and homosexual predators, but we aren't supposed to say that, either). But those crimes were not inspired by anything that's in the Catholic Catechism.

You don't have to be spiritual to be a good person. But it helps tip the scales in a good way. That's true. You can deny that and ridicule it, or ask if there is anything we can extrapolate from that. Go to a Catholic charity some time, and ask those people why they are volunteering there, instead of sitting home watching TV.

True Christians don't, by and large, shoot people for no good reason. Many of them will tell you that their faith is a big reason why they feel obligated to care about others, but you can't admit that, because it doesn't serve your political agenda.

If I had to constantly deny irrefutable empirical evidence in order to justify my beliefs, that would cause me to take a long, hard look at what I believe, and why. And where I get my information from.

Bingo.....Remember when John McCain, a former Democrat who switched parties and became Republican ran for president they said he was too old. Well Both Bernie Sanders and Joe Biden are older than McCain was when he ran. I wonder when they are going to say they are too old to be president? Even Hillary if elected will become older than John McCain was while she is in office. What are the chances her age will become an issue if she becomes president and runs for a second term.
It seems to me they insulted John McCain but nobody cared.
It is obvious the party affiliation and it's agendas is all that matters to the Democraps.
That's one of the reasons I want Obamacare renamed properly to what it is Democare since it's the Democrats that made everyone purchase a product or face penalties. Renaming it Democare would remind everyone who caused their cost of living to increase...the Democrats.
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[tysdad115]

Originally Posted by Nebe

I'm sorry if I'm sounding like a #^&#^&#^&#^& but what grinds my gears is anyone who thinks what they believe would be better for someone else.
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Spot on, and if you don't happen to agree with their view your either racist or insensitive.

[Slipknot]

Originally Posted by spence

This is the most illogical thing I think I've read on this site…and that counts all Jim's posts...

If you really believe what you just said, then you are a lost cause for sure.

How is it illogical?

Do you think the existence of guns make some people into mass murderers?

[The Dad Fisherman]

Originally Posted by Nebe

http://www.usa.com/south-dakota-stat...crime-rate.htm
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Don't know if you noticed on the link you posted, but Hate crimes have been going down in South Dakota and as of 2013 was actually below the national average.


....and FYI.....Fargo is in North Dakota

[Nebe]

Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman

Don't know if you noticed on the link you posted, but Hate crimes have been going down in South Dakota and as of 2013 was actually below the national average.


....and FYI.....Fargo is in North Dakota

I did not notice that and good eye.

Here's North Dakota.
The hate crime index there is going up!
http://www.usa.com/north-dakota-stat...crime-rate.htm
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[Fishpart]

Originally Posted by Nebe

I'm sorry if I'm sounding like a #^&#^&#^&#^& but what grinds my gears is anyone who thinks what they believe would be better for someone else.
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I think that if you look at Progressives you will find this is exactly the case!! It is implemented through the Soft Tyranny of making people believe Merry Christmas and Illegal Alien are hate speech.

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman

Don't know if you noticed on the link you posted, but Hate crimes have been going down in South Dakota and as of 2013 was actually below the national average.


....and FYI.....Fargo is in North Dakota

Yeah, he noticed it in 5 posts above this. And he tried to wash it away with a lame reason that has little, if anything to do with observable reality. He said:
"There's been a decline because many people have probably realized that religion isn't really a free ticket to heaven. Children today learn far more early in life that there is no Easter bunny Santa Claus either."

I don't know of any religion which provides a free ticket. Rather, you have to work, at least in most religions, for the ticket. Religion in name only doesn't cut it. And neither the Easter Bunny nor Santa Claus are Christian doctrines. They are cultural and commercial fictions used to promote little bits of happiness and lots of profitable transactions. Whatever relation they have to Christianity is a distant in name only. Even less than that.

On the other hand, if there were a religion that provides a free ticket to "heaven," Socialism would fit that bill. As well, to a great degree, would its little cousin Progressivism.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Nebe

I'm sorry if I'm sounding like a #^&#^&#^&#^& but what grinds my gears is anyone who thinks what they believe would be better for someone else.
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I wouldn't presume to tell you how to live, because you are doing great and certainly would never bother anyone.

But the gang bangers in Chicago? It's not appropriate to tell them to stop living like feral animals? It's not better to suggest a more productive culture to embrace?

But you nailed it, liberals are very reluctant to say those things. I don't want to offend anyone or be preachy, but I'm not wrong when I say those people need to change their values. And until they do, we will never be able to address the violence that ensues. Never.

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Nebe

Why does the Dakotas have one of the highest levels of hate crimes in the country ? What is the number 1 reason for murder in the world? What tool is used to control people for Political domination for thousands of years ??

Think hard now.
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Why do Michigan and D.C. have higher rates of hate crimes than North Dakota? And why is Connecticut included in the top ten states in highest rate of hate crimes? Is religion the reason? And those three states have some of the strictest gun control laws.

If the precursor to a hate crime is a bias against a group or belief, then your bias against religion could, if you were prone to criminal behavior, make you a potential hate criminal. Religion is one of the targets of hate criminals.

And when religion is used as a tool by tyrants for control of people rather than a way of life by those people, then it is the tyrant, not the religion that is to blame. Just as it is the killer, not the gun, who is to blame.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Nebe

What is the number 1 reason for murder in the world? Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

In this country, religiously motivated murders amount to nothing, excluding Islamic jihadists. Two weekends in a row, there were 50+ shootings in Chicago. Religion had very little to do with it. The majority of gun crimes in this country are committed by people who have absolutely nothing in common with the Judeo-Christian principles upon which the country was founded. You think genuine Christians are committing a meaningful amount of street crime in this country, and that their religion is the motivation for doing so? I'd love to see evidence to support that.

[spence]

Originally Posted by Slipknot

How is it illogical?

If criminals don't care about laws why do people argue the death penalty is a deterrent?

If 50+% of gun deaths are non-assisted suicides, and there's no specific law prohibiting it, how are these people criminals?

And finally, what's a more effective weapon to inflict mass casualties, a knife or a gun?

It's moot now anyway, Jim's comment about North Dakota just put him back in first place

Do you think the existence of guns make some people into mass murderers?

On their own no, but look at this most recent shooting and it's looking quite likely that the family attitude toward guns was a factor.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

If criminals don't care about laws why do people argue the death penalty is a deterrent?

If 50+% of gun deaths are non-assisted suicides, and there's no specific law prohibiting it, how are these people criminals?

And finally, what's a more effective weapon to inflict mass casualties, a knife or a gun?

It's moot now anyway, Jim's comment about North Dakota just put him back in first place


On their own no, but look at this most recent shooting and it's looking quite likely that the family attitude toward guns was a factor.

"Jim's comment about North Dakota just put him back in first place "

Can you be specific? Some folks here seem to think that tighter gun restrictipons will reduce gun violence. I said that the statistics of gun crime and gun ownership seem to contradict that, especially when you compare places like DC/Chicago to the Dakotas. My claim is that people who live in the Dakotas are proof that you can have lots of guns and very little gun crime. Why is that not a valid thing for me to say? Population density?

As always pal, it's very easy to lob an insult and run away.

[tysdad115]

Jim ,you should know by know that if you disagree with a #^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^& you are wrong.

[Rockport24]

Also to address the argument of "no one is taking away your guns"
While its true no one is taking them away, try to get one in Massachusetts, as many of already said, it's aint that easy! And if you happen to live in say, Boston, you could be waiting a very long time before the police department gets around to approving your LTC. If you believe in the 2nd amendment (which I know anti-gun folks don't so why am I even mentioning it) this is a problem, especially if you are a law-abiding citizen that has every right to defend yourself. What if a person fears for their or their families life because they live in a chit hole neighborhood and can't get a gun due to all this red tape? I'd say that's undue hardship and "suffering"

[scottw]

Originally Posted by spence

If criminals don't care about laws why do people argue the death penalty is a deterrent?

the death penalty is not a law...it's a severe punishment for breaking the law...do i need to explain the difference to you?

[The Dad Fisherman]

Originally Posted by spence

If criminals don't care about laws why do people argue the death penalty is a deterrent?.

Its not a deterrent, it akin to taking out the trash.

Originally Posted by spence

And finally, what's a more effective weapon to inflict mass casualties, a knife or a gun?.

A Bomb, Poison, or maybe driving an out of control car into a crowd

[spence]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

"Jim's comment about North Dakota just put him back in first place "

Can you be specific? Some folks here seem to think that tighter gun restrictipons will reduce gun violence. I said that the statistics of gun crime and gun ownership seem to contradict that, especially when you compare places like DC/Chicago to the Dakotas. My claim is that people who live in the Dakotas are proof that you can have lots of guns and very little gun crime. Why is that not a valid thing for me to say? Population density?

As always pal, it's very easy to lob an insult and run away.

Actually, we don't really know what the statistics say because the NRA doesn't want any statistics to be gathered.

When the CDC was studying this in the 1990's they found that firearms in the household made it 300 times more likely to be shot and 5 times more likely a gun death by suicide.

Comparing gun law in Chicago to North Dakota makes no sense at all. It's not like we have borders, or equal demographics.

[scottw]

Originally Posted by spence

Actually, we don't really know what the statistics say because the NRA doesn't want any statistics to be gathered.

When the CDC was studying this in the 1990's they found that firearms in the household made it 300 times more likely to be shot and 5 times more likely a gun death by suicide.

Comparing gun law in Chicago to North Dakota makes no sense at all. It's not like we have borders, or equal demographics.

please make it stop...I heard a car in the driveway makes it 437 times more likely you'll get in a car accident

[Sea Dangles]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

In this country, religiously motivated murders amount to nothing, excluding Islamic jihadists. Two weekends in a row, there were 50+ shootings in Chicago. Religion had very little to do with it. The majority of gun crimes in this country are committed by people who have absolutely nothing in common with the Judeo-Christian principles upon which the country was founded. You think genuine Christians are committing a meaningful amount of street crime in this country, and that their religion is the motivation for doing so? I'd love to see evidence to support that.

See the Army of God for a fine example of Christian values. In central Africa the good Christians destroy mosques, in the name of God of course.
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[tysdad115]

Originally Posted by scottw

please make it stop...I heard a car in the driveway makes it 437 times more likely you'll get in a car accident

That car will never kill anyone if a person doesn't use it.
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[ecduzitgood]

Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman

Its not a deterrent, it akin to taking out the trash.




A Bomb, Poison, or maybe driving an out of control car into a crowd

Add arson to the list and even though it's a stretch drunk driving. Imagine a bus driver being under the influence or for that matter a fuel tanker being driven while under the influence. Being a dart player I would suggest irresponsible bartenders over serving also.
And if we want to really reach how about people who knowingly expose others to deadly diseases, and heck some folks might even suggest second hand smoke. I know some of these are a stretch but they do cause a multitude of deaths everyday and we are not just talking about the occasional rampage shooter when it comes to taking guns away from law abiding citizens.
How many undocumented immigrants cause deaths each year? Technically they are illegal already aren't they.
I might even include drug dealers and even food or prescriptions that are handled or manufactured improperly and served or sold to the public in quantity since folks want to suggest it's not the person it's the tool or object they use.

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[tysdad115]

They aren't illegal to the left Ed,they are votes.
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[ecduzitgood]

Originally Posted by tysdad115

They aren't illegal to the left Ed,they are votes.
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That's true so perhaps we should put the left on the list also
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[ecduzitgood]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prev...auses_of_death
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Some interesting facts about suicide
http://lostallhope.com/suicide-statistics

http://lostallhope.com/suicide-stati...ethods-suicide

http://lostallhope.com/suicide-metho...lethal-methods

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

Actually, we don't really know what the statistics say because the NRA doesn't want any statistics to be gathered.

When the CDC was studying this in the 1990's they found that firearms in the household made it 300 times more likely to be shot and 5 times more likely a gun death by suicide.

Comparing gun law in Chicago to North Dakota makes no sense at all. It's not like we have borders, or equal demographics.

"Actually, we don't really know what the statistics say because the NRA doesn't want any statistics to be gathered."

Actually, we do know what the statistics say, because they are released by the FBI. According to those statistics, gun ownership is much higher in the Dakotas than it is in Chicago and DC, yet gun crimes are much lower there. You are entitled to your own opinions, you are not entitled to your own facts. I posted the FBI states in an earlier post, and they are not ambiguous.

"Comparing gun law in Chicago to North Dakota makes no sense at all. It's not like we have borders"

Not gun law. Gun ownership. Gun ownership is low in Chicago, and they have 50 shootings a weekend now. The fact that we have open borders suggests what?

"or equal demographics"

You almost stumbled onto the truth there. It's not gun ownership that determines gun violence rates. It's the character of the people who own the guns.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Sea Dangles

See the Army of God for a fine example of Christian values. In central Africa the good Christians destroy mosques, in the name of God of course.
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There's nothing in Christian teaching that commands this. Zip. I'm not talking about bloodthirsty lunatics. I'm talking about your neighbors who go to Church and volunteer their time at local charities.

Yawn.

[Sea Dangles]

I may be alone in my perception but this is like the Muslims that don't take ownership of all the trouble that has resulted due to radicals or extremism. They didn't endorse the 9/11 tragedy but they cheered the act from the shadows. There are some "normal" Catholics doing the same when planned parenthood gets targeted and I suspect Jim is one of them. Some day he will be working intersections in the city with a bullhorn and leaflets.....
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[detbuch]

Why does this Oregon mass shooting put the ball in the gun owners court? The same arguments that were put forth in previous discussions of gun control are repeated here. The latest incidence doesn't put the ball in any court. It just keeps the ball bouncing.

And then the ball eventually starts to be knocked into other courts such as poking at religion. And we get the usual contradictory swipes such as "what tool is used to control people for political domination" which disregards the opposing question "which tool (same one) is used to resist or escape from political domination. Or "what grinds my gears is anyone who thinks what they believe would be better for someone else" from someone who has said that if everyone followed his two commandments--be cool and don't be a jerk--the world would be a better place. Or implying that some Catholics, similar to Muslims who cheered 9/11 in the shadows, are cheering attacks on planned parenthood in the shadows--as if there is something peculiar to religious believers that is not shared by the rest of humanity. For example, some atheists cheering, in the shadows, various attacks on Christianity. It is probably a trait shared by most people to cheer for the home team, and be glad to see the enemies get poked. It is not a tenet of Christianity or atheism to wish harm to others, but there are so-called Christians and atheists who secretly cheer that harm.

None of that stuff is putting the ball in any court re gun control.

There is, however, a shadowy agreement that the problem goes beyond guns. Nebe says "it is the American way of life that is the problem." Jim in Ct says "It's culture and values." Spence wants to get at the "root cause."

It seems to me, however, that the court that gun control is being played on is not the gun owners court, nor any real agreement on true responsibility, but the court of politics. Who can milk the issue for votes, for power.