A Day Without Immigrants!

[ScottC]

And your comparing speeding with with illegal imagration, not to meationt he other stupid somment I didn't bother to read BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[The Dad Fisherman]

Originally Posted by ScottC

Another redicluous comment, and it is not a different thread, I used the war specifically bacause you said out coasts would be unguarded, and I proved it is not due to them being is iraq already, very simple.

Cutters on land huh hahahaha.

I just realized I am aruging with delusional people!

I am done

How is that a ridiculous comment...you're the one who brought up the idea of taking a fighting force that was built for protecting our shores....on the WATER, and using them to protect the Borders....on LAND.

....and putting even more of a strain on the Coast Guard isn't exactly going to help strengthen the defense of our coasts either.

Drug Trafficking is running rampant, our nation's Seaport security is a joke, and we are currently in a war on terrorism. and you want to use our fighting men to round up Pedro and his family for trying to sneak in for the chance at picking onions for below minimum wage.

....and I'm Dilusional

[spence]

Not stupid at all, Skippy was bashing lawbreakers...I was just reminding him that he has something in common with illegal aliens...

They are both guilty of commiting a civil offence.

-spence

[striprman]

Ship them all back to where they came from.

[ScottC]

Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman

How is that a ridiculous comment...you're the one who brought up the idea of taking a fighting force that was built for protecting our shores....on the WATER, and using them to protect the Borders....on LAND.

....and putting even more of a strain on the Coast Guard isn't exactly going to help strengthen the defense of our coasts either.

Drug Trafficking is running rampant, our nation's Seaport security is a joke, and we are currently in a war on terrorism. and you want to use our fighting men to round up Pedro and his family for trying to sneak in for the chance at picking onions for below minimum wage.

....and I'm Dilusional

Yes you are, the Coast guard are specifically trained to guard borders, you take them ALONG WITH The OTHER FORCES ( I put that in caps so you selective reading would pick it up) And asign them to our southern borders. You take the CG and have them train the National guard currently deployed in Iraq to protect out borders on land.

And I guess you don;t think drugs come through our southern borders right! HAHAHAHAHAAHAHAH

[ScottC]

Originally Posted by spence

Not stupid at all, Skippy was bashing lawbreakers...I was just reminding him that he has something in common with illegal aliens...

They are both guilty of commiting a civil offence.

-spence

If you do not know te difference, then you have no place in this thread, see, all the wise cracking you do might seem funny to you, but it makes you seem like you have no real imput, and to me, it erodes your integrity and portrays you as a jester. And what do jesters do? Act silly for the amusment of others.

[stripersnipr]

Spence, I'm a little confused by your point on speeding. Using that rationale are you justifying illegal behavior because other people do it? Or is your point that if you commit small civil infractions you deserve no right to an opinion on a far more serious crime such as illegal border crossing? (yes it is far more serious than speeding) Or are you actually infering that speeding is no more serious than illegal border crossing? You make some good solid points but this doesn't seem to be one of them.

[riarcher]

In light of all the above,,, I thought some of you may find this,,, interesting?


Working in Mexico


The following from a director with SW BELL in Mexico City who wants to share his experience.

I spent five years working in Mexico.

I worked under a tourist visa for three months and could legally renew it for three more months. After that you were working illegally. I was technically illegal for three weeks waiting on the FM3 approval.

During that six months our Mexican and US Attorneys were working to secure a permanent work visa called a FM3. It was in addition to my US passport that I had to show each time I entered and left the country. Barbara's was the same except hers did not permit her to work.

To apply for the FM3 I needed to submit the following notarized originals
(not copies) of my:

1. Birth certificates for Barbara and me.

2. Marriage certificate.

3. High school transcripts and proof of graduation.

4. College transcripts for every college I attended and proof of graduation.

5. Two letters of recommendation from supervisors I had worked for at least one year.

6. A letter from The St. Louis Chief of Police indicating I had no arrest record in the US and no outstanding warrants and was "a citizen in good standing."

7. Finally; I had to write a letter about myself that clearly stated why there was no Mexican citizen with my skills and why my skills were important to Mexico. We called it our "I am the greatest person on earth" letter. It was fun to write.

All of the above were in English that had to be translated into Spanish and be certified as legal translations and our signatures notarized. It produced a folder about 1.5 inches thick with English on the left side and Spanish on the right.

Once they were completed Barbara and I spent about five hours accompanied by a Mexican attorney touring Mexican government office locations and being photographed and fingerprinted at least three times. At each location (and we remember at least four locations) we were instructed on Mexican tax, labor, housing, and criminal law and that we were required to obey their laws or face the consequences. We could not protest any of the government's actions or we would be committing a felony. We paid out four thousand dollars in fees and bribes to complete the process. When this was done we could legally bring in our household goods that were held by US customs in Laredo Texas. This meant we rented furniture in Mexico while awaiting our goods. There were extensive fees involved here that the company paid.

We could not buy a home and were required to rent at very high rates and under contract and compliance with Mexican law.

We w ere required to get a Mexican drivers license. This was an amazing process. The company arranged for the licensing agency to come to our headquarters location with their photography and finger print equipment and the laminating machine. We showed our US license, were photographed and fingerprinted again and issued the license instantly after paying out a six dollar fee. We did not take a written or driving test and never received instructions on the rules of the road. Our only instruction was never give a policeman your license if stopped and asked. We were instructed to hold it against the inside window away from his grasp. If he got his hands on it you would have to pay ransom to get it back.

We then had to pay and file Mexican income tax annually using the number of our FM3 as our ID number. The companies Mexican accountants did this for us and we just signed what they prepared. I was about twenty legal size pages annually.

The FM 3 was good for three years and renewable for two more after paying more fees.

Leaving the country meant turning in the FM3 and certifying we were leaving no debts behind and no outstanding legal affairs (warrants, tickets or liens) before our household goods were released to customs.

It was a real adventure and If any of our senators or congressmen went through it once they would have a different attitude toward Mexico.

The Mexican Government uses its vast military and police forces to keep its citizens intimidated and compliant. They never protest at their White House or government offices but do protest daily in front of the United States Embassy. The US embassy looks like a strongly reinforced fortress and during most protests the Mexican Military surround the block with their men standing shoulder to shoulder in full riot gear to protect the Embassy. These pro tests are never shown on US or Mexican TV. There is a large public park across the street where they do their protesting. Anything can cause a protest such as proposed law changes in California or Texas.

Please feel free to share this with everyone who thinks we are being hard on illegal immigrants

[Raider Ronnie]

In my opinion, this problem is way beyond repair now !!!
Some say there are as many as 20 million illegal imigrants in the country now from Maine to California!
How do we round up 20 million and deport them ???
Even if we did, they would just find a way to get back in the country anyway!!!
Plus,
I think there must be plenty of politicians and lawyers lining their pockets with $$$ causing this situation !!!

[ScottC]

Originally Posted by Raider Ronnie

In my opinion, this problem is way beyond repair now !!!
Some say there are as many as 20 million illegal imigrants in the country now from Maine to California!
How do we round up 20 million and deport them ???
Even if we did, they would just find a way to get back in the country anyway!!!
Plus,
I think there must be plenty of politicians and lawyers lining their pockets with $$$ causing this situation !!!

I feel the same way somtimes, but you can;t allow yourself to give in to failure. Sure my ideas seem outlandish, but so far nothing else has even made a dent in the problem.

11 million illegals here is not a problem, it is an all out invaision, and I can say invaision because the Mexican government puts out a intruction manuals on how to invade with little problems. IF we did invade mexico and overthrow the government, sure it would lead to a battle, , but there are plenty of smart honest hard working mexicans here that would jump at the chance of being handed thier country. If we marketed it properly, we could make it more of a liberation than an invaision. There are enough Illegal Mexicans here that we could train to liberate their own country, they are not legal here right? so how can it be us invading? We are simply arming thier people.

[Jimbo]

Now, now, a laugh taketh away wrath. I actually thought Spence's Snake comment was pretty funny considering the solution to put a chunk of our troops on the border. Surely something has to be done there. Everyone is entitled to his own idea of what could or should be done, no matter how extreme. That's just brainstorming, but what I want to know is what incentive is there for someone to enlist or re-up if there's a good chance he or she will be standing shoulder to shoulder with another soldier for the period of that enlistment? You'd definitely be dealing with some unhappy campers who joined to see the world or learn a trade.

[Skip N]

Originally Posted by spence

Not stupid at all, Skippy was bashing lawbreakers...I was just reminding him that he has something in common with illegal aliens...

They are both guilty of commiting a civil offence.

-spence

Comparing a speeding ticket with people hopping fences and coming to the US ILLEGALLY is a stretch.

Your making excuses for them again....

[ScottC]

Originally Posted by Jimbo

Now, now, a laugh taketh away wrath. I actually thought Spence's Snake comment was pretty funny considering the solution to put a chunk of our troops on the border. Surely something has to be done there. Everyone is entitled to his own idea of what could or should be done, no matter how extreme. That's just brainstorming, but what I want to know is what incentive is there for someone to enlist or re-up if there's a good chance he or she will be standing shoulder to shoulder with another soldier for the period of that enlistment? You'd definitely be dealing with some unhappy campers who joined to see the world or learn a trade.

Who says they have to be there thier whole tour? you rotate them out, and they do not have to stand there, we build outposts. Does anyone realize how many borders we are protecting right now world wide?

I can't fathom how you think troops gaurding our borders is so outlandish, this is the very essence of what our military is based on is it not?

In Portugal, when you turn 18 you HAVE to serve a couple years mandatory. Why can't we do the same here? say when you turn 18 you have to serve just a year, after you graduate highschool. Why would that be so bad? there are plenty of options we have, but we as Americans are so spolied and detatched from the rest of the worlds reality that most would think this is ludacris as well.

[ScottC]

Originally Posted by Skip N

Comparing a speeding ticket with people hopping fences and coming to the US ILLEGALLY is a stretch.

Your making excuses for them again....

that is why when he started making comment like that and the illegal imigrants cutting in line , I just dismissed his opinion completly.

[BigFish]

I know you are but what am I?!?!

[spence]

Originally Posted by Skip N

Comparing a speeding ticket with people hopping fences and coming to the US ILLEGALLY is a stretch.

Your making excuses for them again....

Nope, let's try this again Skippy.

Someone who crosses the border in an improper manner is violating immigration law which is a civil offence. It's not a felony or considered a subtantial crime.

So it's not all that much different from your speeding problem, just a different court. You are both lawbreakers and should be punished under the law.

Now, there are many who want to make it a more serious crime...but that's another argument.

-spence

[Swimmer]

in various arguments about illegal aliens:

1. Did anyone here consider the health implications of allowing undocmented illegal aliens to continue living here, while not following the same rules the rest of us have too. When they walk across the boarder they do not have test results from a TB test. Tuberculosous is rampant in many neighboring countries to our south, including the caribean nations. TB has started showing up up again after having been almost eradicated. Individuals who sneak into America do not follow rules, the same rules were are responsible for. Its not just TB, it is the whole shebang. We could be in for a nightmare in this regard.

2. This is repitious but how do illegal aliens pay taxes from earnings when a fake SS # has been used? Also using the fake SS # is identity theft. Point # 2 also involves employers who hire the illegals to begin with. So how will this will impact what we pay if they were fired an deported. Employers are paying the illegals substandard wages, many times less than the minimum wage. And certainly none of them have any concept of overtime, and in that regard are being stolen from. I have seen this first hand. These employers are not charging any less for thier products, so they are reaping greater reward on the back of underpaid labor.

3. Illegals do not have to show up in court. If an illegal is arrested you never know who the heck your talking too. Judges throw thier hands in the air and released them on recognizance. The illegals have finally figured out that not showing up in court is no big deal after realizing that the court doesn't really know who they are either. In this regard from an identification point of view they are an uncontrollable people. No rules apply to them since they are in many aspects invisible. I know everytime you turn around thier is one there working or doing whatever. But they can disappear like a jeanie in a bottle. They all use our systems shortcomings to thier advantage. If it gets to hot for them, borrow a passport from someone who looks similar and go home.

[stripersnipr]

Originally Posted by spence

Nope, let's try this again Skippy.

Someone who crosses the border in an improper manner is violating immigration law which is a civil offence. It's not a felony or considered a subtantial crime.

So it's not all that much different from your speeding problem, just a different court. You are both lawbreakers and should be punished under the law.

Now, there are many who want to make it a more serious crime...but that's another argument.

-spence

There are degree's of seriousness and punishishment in regards to civil offenses. The punishment for all civil offenses are not equal because some civil offenses are more serious than others. Speeding to illegal border crossing are not equal offenses and the argument that are equal does not hold water..

[Swimmer]

Spence, it is a crime to cross the border. It is a misdomeanor. To say it is civil is wrong. Its just not a felony yet!

Well, two more things. A police chief in New Hampshire was upheld by the U. S. Supreme court when he arrested an illegal alien for tresspassing. The state said he couldn't do that and that decision was appealed and the state court decision was overturned and the chiefs arrest for tresspassing was determined to be valid. So it could be said that every police can uphold and enforce all laws even federal statutes, which means that every police officer can arrest aliens for being here illegally on the simple charge of tresspassing.

[spence]

Originally Posted by Swimmer

Spence, it is a crime to cross the border. It is a misdomeanor. To say it is civil is wrong. Its just not a felony yet!

Technically it's not a criminal offence as a that requires the offence to have a
defined punishment (or something like that) to be considered criminal law...it's clearly a civil offence under US Law.

Well, two more things. A police chief in New Hampshire was upheld by the U. S. Supreme court when he arrested an illegal alien for tresspassing.

Could have been a unique situation. I'm pretty sure state and local do not have inherant authority to enforce immigration laws...although there is legislation in Congress to change this.

-spence

[spence]

Originally Posted by stripersnipr

There are degree's of seriousness and punishishment in regards to civil offenses. The punishment for all civil offenses are not equal because some civil offenses are more serious than others. Speeding to illegal border crossing are not equal offenses and the argument that are equal does not hold water..

The fines allocated for illegal immigration and speeding are quite similar. I think the law stipulates 50-250 dollars for a first violation for a basic immigration violation.

It's precisely why we have such a problem, the penalites are very weak and there's little ability for the vast majority of law enforcement to do anything about it.

-spence

[ScottC]

Originally Posted by spence

Nope, let's try this again Skippy.

Someone who crosses the border in an improper manner is violating immigration law which is a civil offence. It's not a felony or considered a subtantial crime.

So it's not all that much different from your speeding problem, just a different court. You are both lawbreakers and should be punished under the law.

Now, there are many who want to make it a more serious crime...but that's another argument.

-spence

So are you basicly trying to tell us that YOU believe traffic violation is just as bad as illegal imagration? We already know the government's stand, we don't need you to point that out, this discussion is about how to change the way our government is handling the situation, not point out how it has failed, we all know out government is failing us on this issue.

[spence]

I'm not saying there's parity...but rather putting the violation in context for those clammoring about "illegal" bahavior...

-spence

[The Dad Fisherman]

Originally Posted by ScottC

Yes you are, the Coast guard are specifically trained to guard borders

No they are specifically trained for Seaport and Harbor Security (I Underlined and Bolded for your Selective reading Pleasure)

On 29 January 2003, General Richard Myers, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, was asked, "The Coast Guard announced today [it is] sending eight cutters, 600 people, to the Persian Gulf, which I understand is the first time they have been dispatched to a combat zone since the Vietnam War. What's the thinking behind that, and what's their mission going to be?" General Myers answered, "For the Coast Guard, primarily for port and harbor and waterway security. That's what they do best."

This also from the US Coast Guard Web Site...its there Mission Statement

"The United States Coast Guard is a military, multi-mission, maritime service and one of the nation’s five Armed Services. Its mission is to protect the public, the environment, and U.S. economic interests – in the nation’s ports and waterways, along the coast, on international waters, or in any maritime region as required to support national security."

Originally Posted by ScottC

You take the CG and have them train the National guard currently deployed in Iraq to protect out borders on land.

And this here makes sense take a unit that is specifically trained to operate on the Water and have THEM train the troops that were already trained to work on the ground. HAHAHAHAHAA!!

Originally Posted by ScottC

And I guess you don;t think drugs come through our southern borders right! HAHAHAHAHAAHAHAH

Drugs come into this country by Air, Sea, and Land. Weakening one area to strengthen another does absolutely no good.

[RIROCKHOUND]

TDF;
Exactly...
The CG's have a tough enough job already...
Yeah they deal with illegals (cubans) who try and float over, but that is not their main gig!
I've had enough of this thread... circular logic is a waste of an argument!

[ScottC]

[QUOTE=The Dad Fisherman]No they are specifically trained for Seaport and Harbor Security (I Underlined and Bolded for your Selective reading Pleasure)

On 29 January 2003, General Richard Myers, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, was asked, "The Coast Guard announced today [it is] sending eight cutters, 600 people, to the Persian Gulf, which I understand is the first time they have been dispatched to a combat zone since the Vietnam War. What's the thinking behind that, and what's their mission going to be?" General Myers answered, "For the Coast Guard, primarily for port and harbor and waterway security. That's what they do best."

This also from the US Coast Guard Web Site...its there Mission Statement

"The United States Coast Guard is a military, multi-mission, maritime service and one of the nation’s five Armed Services. Its mission is to protect the public, the environment, and U.S. economic interests – in the nation’s ports and waterways, along the coast, on international waters, or in any maritime region as required to support national security."

And this here makes sense take a unit that is specifically trained to operate on the Water and have THEM train the troops that were already trained to work on the ground. HAHAHAHAHAA!!

Yes, they are specifically traind to guard borders, they are trained to search vessles, and read people on a face to face basis. just because a RV can't float don't not make it any different then a boat hahahah

So you think searching boats and land vehicles are different in some way hahahahaha. They are TRAINED TO FIND SMUGGLERS HAHAHA they have been dealing with similar problems on our coasts for decades, they can help train the national guard to deal with the new issues they will face

. So by your reasoing, Navy should not fly jets right? They should leave that to the Airforce correct? After all the navy it trained to fight on the water! HAHAHAHAH Let me guess, they coast guard need to be on ships to function right? Dude, your hilarious


Drugs come into this country by Air, Sea, and Land. Weakening one area to strengthen another does absolutely no good


Again, more proof of your selective reading, you take the troops that are in iraq and asign them to the borders, not take them from the seaports You are definetly the only one here with selective reading issues hahaha


Everything else I didn't bother addressing for obvious reasons.

[stripersnipr]

Originally Posted by spence

The fines allocated for illegal immigration and speeding are quite similar. I think the law stipulates 50-250 dollars for a first violation for a basic immigration violation.

It's precisely why we have such a problem, the penalites are very weak and there's little ability for the vast majority of law enforcement to do anything about it.

-spence

The glaring difference between the consequences of speeding and illegal border crossing is: when caught speeding you are not sent to a detention center for an indefinite period of time awaiting deportation. Thats because of the fact that illegal border crossing is far more serious than speeding and the consequences of detention and deportation reflect the difference in severity of the two civil offenses.

[spence]

Originally Posted by stripersnipr

Thats because of the fact that illegal border crossing is far more serious than speeding and the consequences of detention and deportation reflect the difference in severity of the two civil offenses.

I believe most of the illegals who are sent to dentention centers are also thought to be in violation of criminal statutes or considered a danger to the general population.

According to the Department of Homeland Security, in 2003 there were 1,046,422 apprehensions yet only 231,500 were actually sent to detention facilities.

-spence

[ScottC]

You know what guys, all this arguing tells me that most of you don't care about illegal imigration because it does not affect you directly, it doesn't affect me either, but when the day comes that an illegal takes your jobs don't come crying, after all it's only about as bad as a speeding ticket. I don't have the worry, I own and operate my one company, so I can just sit back and watch all you sympathisers cry an whine about it later.

So far none of you symapthisers has even come up witht ANY kind of idea or solution better than mine, I have come up with a bunch, sure you dont agree with them, but seriously, untill you can come up with atleast somthing , in my eyes you haven't earned the right to debate it because you have not put forth any REAL imput.

It is pretty easy to sit on the sidelines and be critical.

But if you would like to take the stance that nothing can be done, that fine, but that has already been proven as a dismal failure. Just let them be, let them come, but don't cry later, I know either way I am all set, I am in no personal danger of losing anything.

[The Dad Fisherman]

My Gawd its like working in the Dementia ward at the Old Folks Home.