Israel and World War III part four

[spence]

Originally Posted by Skip N

Spence, i need your help, i am totally confused with what you want to to with these terroists. I mean obviosly we can't sit back and do nothing or we'll get wacked again, and your saying we can't go after them because it will breed more hatred in the radical muslim world. And we certainly can't talk and reason with these nut cases. So what the hell is your plan???

If you read a thing I posted you'd know my plan

I've never said we can't go after them...quite the opposite, there is a time and a place for some serious bloodletting.

But the reality is, we must be very careful of when and where as our actions regardless of intention can have negative impact.

To date, our actions have not been viewed as a Nation defending itsself from radical Islam. We are being percieved as Imperialists, not because they view Americans as bad, but because of our behavior.

And guys, quit the silly stuff...there's some good conversation in this thread

Skitter...that cartoon is most excellent

-spence

[spence]

Originally Posted by MakoMike

Why do we have to ask ourselves that question? It's like asking why the Kamakasi pilots during WWII did what they did. Its a pointless discussion, we don't need to understand them, we just need to kill them.

Mike, read what I've said above...

You can't kill them all, think Lucy and the Pie Factory !

Unless you understand why someone moves to the dark side, how can you ever stop the flow?

This has nothing to do with liberalisim, it's common sense and problem solving.

-spence

[RIJIMMY]

I'm basically d#^&#^&#^&#^&#^& out of this discussion, its too taxing, Just one final point reading the last several posts. I beleive 100% in what Mako Mike said, too me the issue is that simple. Spence, I'm sure you now this but many Nazis were EXTREMELY intelligent people. Also, Germany was a slum after WW1, the Nazis brought back many social services, a robust economy and reinstated the pride of the German people. That being said, they were HOMOCIDAL MANIACS bent on the genocide of a race, not just jews, all non-aryans they could get their hands on! Dont you think that everytime we bombed German cities, more kids signed up for the Hitler youth? How did we stop them, neogitation? By understanding the root cause of Nazism? We beat them by destroying them. By eliminating their ability to operate.
The same need to be done for radical Islam. We cannot use teh argument taht everytime teh enemy si confornted, it will bring new recruits, that is an element of all confrontations. It cannot be used as a strategy for defeating the enemy. Thats it for me, have fun!

[stripersnipr]

Cant identify the source but the defininition seems to fit one side of the current issue.

Traditionally, appeasement is regarded as a naive policy that gives democracies the appearance of weakness and encourages Fascist powers in their attempts to construct empires. Its failure in preventing World War II coloured the diplomacy of the immediate post-war period and the decline into Cold War, and continues to impact upon the foreign policies of western nations today.

The only thing I would add is a policy of appeasement should be considered even more dangerous when the war has already begun, which it has.

[spence]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

I'm sure you now this but many Nazis were EXTREMELY intelligent people. Also, Germany was a slum after WW1, the Nazis brought back many social services, a robust economy and reinstated the pride of the German people. That being said, they were HOMOCIDAL MANIACS bent on the genocide of a race, not just jews, all non-aryans they could get their hands on! Dont you think that everytime webed bom German cities, more kids signed up for the Hitler youth? How did we stop them, neogitation? By understanding the root cause of Nazism? We beat them by destroying them. By eliminating their ability to operate.
The same need to be done for radical Islam. We cannot use teh argument taht everytime teh enemy si confornted, it will bring new recruits, that is an element of all confrontations. It cannot be used as a strategy for defeating the enemy.

Thanks for the well thought out remarks.

Again, I'm not advocating we don't confront the enemy. There are real terrorists and terrorist infrastructure that we should target and take out...

But the parallel with Nazi Germany is not accurate in my opinion.

I'm not a student of Nazi history, but I'd wager that the Hitler Youth were a propaganda tool driven from the top down, more than the product of a willing public.

In my opinion, the biggest flaw in your thinking (to be perfectly blunt ) is the notion that terrorisim is driven by homocidal or irrational behavior.

A good book to read that goes into this in detail is "Imperial Hubris: Why the West is loosing the War on Terror" by Michael Scheuer.

-spence

[MakoMike]

Originally Posted by spence

I think the entire statement is bunk, here's my typical long winded response. It's so humid my fingers are sticking to the keyboard, and I can't get them free

Put simply, it's not an objetive statement. It's a wedge intended to influence people to one side only.

Isn't that the point of the discussion, to decide which side we should support?

Originally Posted by spence

On that basis alone I reject it's value, because I don't want to be manupulated. by someone with an agenda.

Manipulated? Agenda? Your opinon, as well as mine and all the other in this discussion won't matter one iota in the decision making process. If you want to debate the subject at least be ibtellecutualy honest.

Originally Posted by spence

It's unfortunate that our Puritan roots so easily push us into black or white decisions...but the real world is quite gray.

Black and white? The quote you are referring to isn't about black and white its about determining who is the responsible party for the current hostilities. But lets assume for a minute that we are trying to determine, who is right and who is wrong. what's wrong with that. Isn't that the real question anyway? We should support whomever we think is right. That's got nothing to do with out Puritan roots, my family came here long after the puritans and their mores have no influence over my positions. Its simply a matter of determining what is right for our country.

Originally Posted by spence

The reality is that the majority of Christian Arabs in the region support Hezbollah as a legitimate resistance organization formed in response to Israeli occupation.

You better go check your polling numbers again. The vast majority of the Marionite Christians in Lebabnon seem to support he Israeli side in the currnt imbroglio. The Marionite Christians fought the Hezbolla for years and years.

Originally Posted by spence

Additionally, Hezbolla provides social and health programs for a very large population. This is in stark contrast to the holocost scenario presented in the statement.

And how many of theos grateful recipients of their largesse are Jews? Seems to me the only thing thay have been doing for Jews is lobbing rockets at them.

[QUOTE=spence]That doesn't mean they're your perfect next door neighbor, certainly they're guilty of horrific acts. But Israel doesn't exactly have a clear record either, and from an Arab perspective...it's worse![/Quote}

Why do we have to lok at it from an Arab perspective? We should be trying to be objective about it.

Originally Posted by spence

More to the point.

I believe that there are just as many uber Zionists who want to take all of the West Bank from the Palestenians as there are uber anti-semites who want to expell the Jews to the sea...a small number of both relatively speaking. This fight is being fueled by the extreme who want to position their man on deck for the end of days.

In cae you missed the fact, the jews have withdrawn from the Gaza and were in the process of withdrawing from the west bank. So I guess those ultrazionists aren't represented byt he Israeli Government.

Originally Posted by spence

But both Jews and Arabs are perfectly capable of living side by side and in peace...they've done it throughout history and in they do it today, there are over 2 Million Arabs living in Israel right now.

Thanks you for proving my point. The jews are obviously willing to live with the arabs, its the arabs that want to crush the jews.

Originally Posted by spence

Giving credence to the statement bolsters the positions of the radicals on both sides...and does nothing to help construct a meaningful solution.

How do "construct a meaningful solution" with someone whoe expressed desire is to kill you?

[spence]

Originally Posted by MakoMike

Isn't that the point of the discussion, to decide which side we should support?

Not at all...it's about how we go about supporting the side we do.

Put simply, do you think Israel has the right, or that it's in our National interest for them to be given a "blank check" to respond to any threat however they choose?

This isn't about right and wrong, ultimately both sides share blame for where they are today.

Why do we have to lok at it from an Arab perspective? We should be trying to be objective about it.

This is a non-sequitor

In cae you missed the fact, the jews have withdrawn from the Gaza and were in the process of withdrawing from the west bank. So I guess those ultrazionists aren't represented byt he Israeli Government.

It's strategic positioning, Israel wasn't conceeding anything...and in case you missed the fact, Jewish settlers had to be removed from Gaza at gunpoint

Thanks you for proving my point. The jews are obviously willing to live with the arabs, its the arabs that want to crush the jews.

Now you're just stereotyping

How do "construct a meaningful solution" with someone whoe expressed desire is to kill you?

You're missing the point...the solution doesn't like with the extremists, it's with the masses in the middle...

And I'm not sure what polls you're looking at, but even Rush Limbaugh reported that the majority of Americans in Lebanon are Hezbollah supporters!

-spence

[stormfish]

Originally Posted by MakoMike

Why do we have to ask ourselves that question? It's like asking why the Kamakasi pilots during WWII did what they did. Its a pointless discussion, we don't need to understand them, we just need to kill them.

Japan style of Kamikaze was great honor to sacrifice one's life for a good cause. In doing so, one would reap many rewards in the afterlife. Kamikaze pilots of Japan wore formal uniforms for their Kamikaze mission. I beleive there's a tale that providing that honor will resurrect a God to banish the invaders from the land of Japan with a Tsunami caused by a Typhoon. The tale lived true but the Tsunami was 1 day too late as Japan was struck with Little Boy.

Germany on the other side followed Kamikaze missions influence by a tale that dates back the rule of Prussia. (Not sure how the story went because I felll asleep in the middle of the documentary)

Bottomline their motives were based on Prophecy. Same concept the Jews used to crucify Jesus. They were afraid of the prophet. I mean terrorist do, in the sake of Ji'had.

[stormfish]

Originally Posted by Skip N

Spence, i need your help, i am totally confused with what you want to to with these terroists. I mean obviosly we can't sit back and do nothing or we'll get wacked again, and your saying we can't go after them because it will breed more hatred in the radical muslim world. And we certainly can't talk and reason with these nut cases. So what the hell is your plan???

Another thing, I believe when the issue of weapons of mass destruction around and there was threads for it, you were the one screaming like around about weapons of mass D in Iraq. So where are they now Skippy? Now who feels like a nutcase... You get out!

[Skip N]

Originally Posted by stormfish

Another thing, I believe when the issue of weapons of mass destruction around and there was threads for it, you were the one screaming like around about weapons of mass D in Iraq. So where are they now Skippy? Now who feels like a nutcase... You get out!

I know you don't want to go down the iraq and WMD road, its a known fact that Iraq had WMD's and used them to slaughter the kurds. And its a fact that countries such as Britan, Russia and Israel to name a few, believed just like the US did, that Iraq was still producing or had plans to produce more WMD's. Oh yeah, and that pre dates George W. too. So don't go to the Bush lied card.

Please dispute these facts if you'd like, but you really cant.

have a wonderful day

[stripersnipr]

Originally Posted by stormfish

Another thing, I believe when the issue of weapons of mass destruction around and there was threads for it, you were the one screaming like around about weapons of mass D in Iraq. So where are they now Skippy? Now who feels like a nutcase... You get out!

The fact is there were WMD in Iraq maybe still are. The big question as you said is "Where are they now"? And if you think anyone who believes that is a nutcase than you are refering to just about every intelligence agency, world leader, former Presidents, Presidential Candidates, Congressmen, Senators etc etc. I'm sure you can find someone who will deny they ever existed but they will also claim they were abducted by aliens.

[Skitterpop]

Originally Posted by Skip N

I know you don't want to go down the iraq and WMD road, its a known fact that Iraq had WMD's and used them to slaughter the kurds. And its a fact that countries such as Britan, Russia and Israel to name a few, believed just like the US did, that Iraq was still producing or had plans to produce more WMD's. Oh yeah, and that pre dates George W. too. So don't go to the Bush lied card.

Please dispute these facts if you'd like, but you really cant.

have a wonderful day

This is so wrong....sorry Skip.

[Skip N]

Originally Posted by Skitterpop

This is so wrong....sorry Skip.

Please share with us whats wrong? everything i mentioned really can't be disputed. But please try....

The kurds were never gassed?

Those countries didnt have the same opinion on iraq and WMD's? During the Clinton years too?

Clinton and other Dems during the Clinton years weren't saying Iraq was a threat?

Please tell us YOUR version of these known facts

[spence]

Originally Posted by Skip N

Please share with us whats wrong? everything i mentioned really can't be disputed. But please try....

Yes, Skipper...it's true that Iraq had WMD, 15 years ago

Everything else you said is taken out of context and therefore not a fact in the context you seem to be assuming. I could elaborate further...but you don't really seem to want to learn

-spence

[Skitterpop]

Originally Posted by Skip N

Please share with us whats wrong? everything i mentioned really can't be disputed. But please try....

The kurds were never gassed?

Those countries didnt have the same opinion on iraq and WMD's? During the Clinton years too?

Clinton and other Dems during the Clinton years weren't saying Iraq was a threat?

Please tell us YOUR version of these known facts

I will not have a discussion of any weight with you until you study more. Now hit the books

[stormfish]

Originally Posted by Skip N

Please share with us whats wrong? everything i mentioned really can't be disputed. But please try....

The kurds were never gassed?

Those countries didnt have the same opinion on iraq and WMD's? During the Clinton years too?

Clinton and other Dems during the Clinton years weren't saying Iraq was a threat?

Please tell us YOUR version of these known facts

The Kurds if I'm mistaken are Sunni Muslims and are nomads that inhabit the northern region of Iraq and mountainous areas throughout the Middle east. Like any other nomads, I believe they were quite the nuisance to the Arab World. Who cares about them?

Clinton's interest in Iraq was to have the UN inspect Iraq for WMD. Sadamn played his little game and Clinton tossed him some air strikes until Sadamn complied. Bush on the other hand invaded Iraq and succeeded in overthrowing the tyrant. It's a bit harsh isn't it? Bush just approached the situation the 'wrong' way.

What triggered the war? I don't believe it was WMD. It was the fact that Sadamn began to sell Iraq's oil in Euros instead of Dollars. His motive was to appreciate the Euro over the Dollar. Did it suceed? The Euro is currently .34 over the dollar. Iraq continues to sell oil in the Euro today.

This is the reason we haven't left Iraq today. Bush wants Iraq to have a steady government in hopes to influence Iraq to sell oil in US Dollars again. Big picture in the long run... Is it worth it? Nope! In Economics, governement intervention (that includes war) will boost GNP in the short run. But as in consuming alcohol, the alcohol is going to catch up to you if consumed too much. What does that mean? An economical hangover!

I don't believe we should intervene in Iraq or any other nation until we sort out our economical woes. Yes we're trillions of trillions in the hole!

Enjoy Skippy!

[stormfish]

Oh and another thing, bet your bottom dollar that when the Euro eclipses the pound, England may or shall I say will join the EMU which will influence countries like Poland and Sweden to join. Once that happens, expect for a sudden lost of allies. Who will fight any war with us now?

[Skip N]

Ahhh yes, Iraq is all about oil

[spence]

Originally Posted by Skip N

Ahhh yes, Iraq is all about oil

Skippy, IT'S ALL ABOUT THE OIL

Iraq, terrorisim etc...

-spence

[Skitterpop]

I cannot think of any war that was not founded on aquiring natural resources no matter how it was wrapped up and presented to the public.

[Bronko]

I could elaborate further...but you don't really seem to want to learn

-spence[/QUOTE]


This is such an elitest statement.

[spence]

Originally Posted by Bronko

This is such an elitest statement.

On the surface, but given that in the past year Skippy hasn't appreciated to a damn thing I've said it's more than justified.

While I may not have all the answers (yet ), I'll take my version of history up against his any time, any place

-spence

[Bronko]

Originally Posted by spence

On the surface, but given that in the past year Skippy hasn't appreciated to a damn thing I've said it's more than justified.

While I may not have all the answers (yet ), I'll take my version of history up against his any time, any place

-spence

Opinion vs. opinion...beliefs vs. beliefs. This is not a classroom.

[spence]

Originally Posted by Bronko

Opinion vs. opinion...beliefs vs. beliefs. This is not a classroom.

Sorry Bronko but that's just a load of horse hockey.

Opinions are based on how you process what you percieve to be reality...

Some peoples version of reality has been heavily manipulated, I try my hardest to understand what's real and what's not.

For instance, the assertion that top Democratic Congresspeople are on the record stating Saddam's WMDs justify unilateral action as believed by many (due to out of context quotes circulated by the GOP) is a proveable falsehood when put in proper context.

The information is out there if people take the time to read it.

If someone like Skipper want to make this assertion to back their argument, I will correct them.

I would hope that others would do the same when I'm in error...

-spence

[Bronko]

Originally Posted by spence

Sorry Bronko but that's just a load of horse hockey.

Opinions are based on how you process what you percieve to be reality...

Some peoples version of reality has been heavily manipulated, I try my hardest to understand what's real and what's not.

For instance, the assertion that top Democratic Congresspeople are on the record stating Saddam's WMDs justify unilateral action as believed by many (due to out of context quotes circulated by the GOP) is a proveable falsehood when put in proper context.

The information is out there if people take the time to read it.

If someone like Skipper want to make this assertion to back their argument, I will correct them.

I would hope that others would do the same when I'm in error...

-spence

This is why these threads spiral out of control. From this statement one must assume you know the truth or have the knowledge to teach. I guess Skip should assume that because you can spout your partisan whackery in a more eloquent fashion than he can then you are in some position to teach him? You have an OPINION, period.

His moniker is SkipN, not Skippy, Skipper or any other derivation you find cute. Let's keep the patronizing comments and erudite slights to a minimum.

[spence]

Originally Posted by Bronko

From this statement one must assume you know the truth or have the knowledge to teach. I guess Skip should assume that because you can spout your partisan whackery in a more eloquent fashion than he can then you are in some position to teach him?

We're all in a position to teach each other...quite often I learn things I didn't know or am exposed to another viewpoint by what people say. I happen to respect and appreciate this.

I'm a partisan only in that I'm a fervent supporter of the "truth" which is grossly underrepresented today by both sides. The assumption that I deeply embrace liberal or progressive policy is a product of more manipulation and very small minded.

Do I preach? You bet...it's fun. If you don't like it don't read my posts...but when people make an attempt to seriously question what I'm sayinig I try to give them a well thought out response.

His moniker is SkipN, not Skippy, Skipper or any other derivation you find cute. Let's keep the patronizing comments and erudite slights to a minimum.

Skipper-py-loo knows I'm just having fun, perhaps when he has something worthwhile to say I'll start showing some respect



-spence

[Bronko]

Skipper-py-loo knows I'm just having fun, perhaps when he has something worthwhile to say I'll start showing some respect

-spence[/QUOTE]



I can try to explain it to you, but I can't make you understand it.

[spence]

Originally Posted by Bronko

I can try to explain it to you, but I can't make you understand it.

Nice!

I'm being a bit irreverent on the Skipper stuff obviously, but regarding opinions and such...let's just say I disagree.

-spence

[Bronko]

Originally Posted by spence

Nice!

I'm being a bit irreverent on the Skipper stuff obviously, but regarding opinions and such...let's just say I disagree.

-spence

[RIJIMMY]

BAGHDAD (CNN) -- Tens of thousands of people marched through the streets of Baghdad on Friday, enthusiastically voicing support for Lebanon's Hezbollah militia.


This is what kills me, ten of thousands Iraquis rally when it comes to Isreal, why don't they rally about the thousands of Iraquis killed by other Iraquis? More Iraqi civilians have been killed by other Iraquis than any Arabs killed by Isrealis in the past 25yrs. Why dont the rally over to some shovels, start digging and build their country? Why dont the rally for ending sectarian violence?
IMHO, this is why we can never be successful, the only motivator for Arab muslims is a hate for Isreal. The extremists have capitalized on this and thrive on this to keep Hezzbolah and Al-Queda alive. There is no vision, no independent thought. Pretty Sad.