Mass. weighs tougher protections for striped bass

[Doublerunner]

Why do commercial fishermen from NJ care about what happens in Mass?

[MikeToole]

Originally Posted by CowHunter

Doublerunner, well to bad for you if you take offense. My post was directed at people to whom it applies. People trying to change rules to better benifit them, have nothing better than trying to ruin the lives of hard working people....

Hard working people have destroyed or severly damaged many of our fisheries.

I'm not against commercial fishing. I'm for maximizing the value of the resource for the public good. I'm originally from NJ and I fish there a couple of times a year and I agree with your other post about the number of fish being killed. There are far more chart and private boats fishing for stripers now then there were in the late 60s. Now even the party boats target them. From what I've seen, catch and release of legal fish is not near as common down there as it is here. We're killing to many fish and we need to reduce the numbers. Problem is, it's hard to convince recreational fisherman to reduce their kill when others are allowed to kill for profit. right or wrong it is the arguement I get when I bring up reducing the kill numbers.

[CowHunter]

Doublerunner, I commercially fish in Mass and charter up the coast. You automatically assume that NJ is all I know....I hear people everywhere blaming the commercial fishery in Mass as causing all the damage to the striped bass fishery when the fishing gets tough. There have been articles down here, written and published by those that dont have a clue. Everybody wants somebody to blame. They have no idea as to what goes on up and down the coast, they just expect to go out and catch all the striped bass they want anytime they want... Times are changing.
Numbskull, sacrifices have to be made both commercially and recrerationally to benifit the striped bass fishery. You can complain and whine all you want about bait. Truth of the matter is there are literally miles of bunker here of the NJ coast, they come on the beach from time to time, but doesnt mean the bass always do, in fact they seldom due. And for those that put their time in and understand the fishery, know when they do and capitalize on it. You cant read that in books. For many miles, that bait is unmolested, didnt mean squat for the inshore fishery. Down in VA and NC the bass are all along with the pogies, Miles and miles of them. Water temp dictates as to them coming in, truth is, they aint coming on the beach where the surf temp is 42-43 degrees. Your going to have to accept the fact that surf fishing isnt what it used to be and probably wont be for time to come. As far as the boat fishing is, it isnt easy by any means, you have to be inovative and adaptive to be consistant. U cant blame the state off striped bass on indescrimit dragging, long lining, gillnetting... The Striped Bass commercial fishery has been regulated much more stringently than the Rec Catches have. There has not been an ounce of accountability on the rec side....

[Doublerunner]

CH I never said NJ is all you know. That is just an assumption on your part

It's like listening to a broken record. Read back on some of my posts. I have repeatedly said we all need to work together and I am all for restrictions on the rec side as well

Reducing kill numbers needs a multi faceted approach which also includes reducing the over killing of menhaden

[CowHunter]

I really havent got anything else to say.... Im going down to VA this week to fish a tourney, Ill see plenty of dead 30-40 lb breeders. Then Ill be down in January for a few days to fish the midatlantic rockfish tourney, I think that tourney is good for 1000's , (30k+ easy in its hay day), of pounds of dead breeding stock bass in 3 days. Lots of 30-50lb class fish, (Although fewer every year for some strange reason) Dont worry, they dont get sold, a large portion gets wheeled off and donated to food banks, the ones that arent wieghed are fileted... People at food banks want to enjoy striped bass too!

Mid-Atlantic Rockfish Shootout - Fishing Tournament Virginia Beach, VA

[MAKAI]

You are making a great argument for catch and release only across the board.
The 10% of the fishermen who catch 90% of the fish rec and com probably are not going to have as strong a say in this as you would like.
But fear not,in the true American way it will be studied and paneled to death and by then it will become a token european style fishery.

[numbskull]

Originally Posted by CowHunter

Numbskull, sacrifices have to be made both commercially and recrerationally to benifit the striped bass fishery. .

You miss the point, my self-certain friend. Just who is going to dictate those sacrifices and when are they going to occur? Surely you (and others like you) have no intent to limit yourselves, you are too proud of your skill in a dying fishery and still profiting too much from it to want any change. Likewise the recreational scene you describe in NJ/VA seems unlikely to volunteer sacrifice. So where is that taking us? Towards another collapse quite possibly.

Shifting the ASMFC bias toward preservation rather than exploitation is the last hope FISHERMEN have of controlling the process. This SF bill in MA is a real chance to move the regulators in that direction. If the ASMFC fails to shift their bias and the fishery collapses (it may not but I wouldn't bet against it), the CLF, Pew trusts, and federal courts will step in to protect the interests of the public at large from the greed of recreational and commercial fishermen alike. Count on it. It won't be pretty......though I doubt you will care by that point.

[striperman36]

Totally agree with George, ASFMC focuses on commercial exploitation of every last lb. of biomass for every species it manages.
Unless they do so, we are faced with the only option, litigation.

[Doublerunner]

Comments like those made by cowhunter just proves the point that the only way to stop the massive killing of stripers is through legislation and serious enforcement.

I have copied cowhunter's posts and will be bringing them to the next meeting at my club and I suggest all those who care about what steps to take in the right direction to save the stock do the same

[big jay]

Am I totally crazy here -- when the heck did it become written in stone that Bass Fishing now is in the toilet?
Reading all these posts it seems like there are no bass and the fishery is dieing.

I'm normally not this bold online, but I had a kick-ass '09 season, and so did most all of the guys I hang out with/talk to.

I don't get this.

[numbskull]

Originally Posted by big jay

Am I totally crazy here -- when the heck did it become written in stone that Bass Fishing now is in the toilet?
Reading all these posts it seems like there are no bass and the fishery is dieing.

I'm normally not this bold online, but I had a kick-ass '09 season, and so did most all of the guys I hang out with/talk to.

I don't get this.

Just guessing here, so please excuse me if I'm wrong. But, based in RI and fishing out of Sandwich you likely had a decent season in CCB and Race Point. You were likely helped by the use of hi grade sonar, GPS, radar, and cell phone contacts. You had access to and the knowledge of a remaining center or body of fish that allowed you to be successful. Guys on BI had something similar. Huge areas in between and to the periphery of that body of fish had nothing. THAT is the sign of trouble.

When fish begin to dwindle, it is the periphery and less bait intensive areas that show the strain first. Ask the guys in Maine how the fishing was. The North Shore. Vineyard Sound. Buzzards Bay.

Consider also 30 years ago. Guys would hammer bass all summer in CCB, just like this year........but while they were doing so guys would be hammering bass behind the Vineyard, off Monomoy, the outer cape, the North Shore, the merrimac, NH, Maine, Narragansett, etc.
That no longer happens, even though there are more people fishing with far better fish finding equipment.

Guys like Cow Hunter have a twisted perspective on things. They are smart fisherman and very competitive. With live/dead bait, advanced electronics, developed networks, mobile rigs, and lots of effort they are able to access and hammer the remaining mass of fish quite successfully. They forget that 30-40 years ago, without any of those tools, many many more people were even more successful than they are now.

Not that they would care. The scarcity of fish drives up the value of what they can still catch. It makes their services as a charter captain worth paying for. $800 for a charter is much easier to justify when each customer comes home with 20-30 lbs of fish worth $10-12/lb. Likewise, the travel and gas expense is well worth it for commercial guys when the price of fish is high........and scarcity keeps the price of fish high.

For most people, however, fishing is not about making money or paying customers, it is about a pleasant diversion from the substantial stress in the rest of their lives. A scarcity of fish ruins that for them. Either they can move on to something else, or they can use their numbers and votes to change the system that ignores them..........at the expense of the guys who profit from a depleted resource.

[JFigliuolo]

It's like George reads my mind...

[MAKAI]

" Nuff " said.

[Back Beach]

Originally Posted by CowHunter

BackBeach out of staters fish commercially for many other species in multiple states. Thats like telling you that you can only fish recreationally and kill your catch in Mass...

True, but there's no reciprocity with the commercial bass fishery, which is what I'm whining about. This is obviously due to the fact none of our bordering states have a commercial fishery except RI, which is nearly impossible for out of staters to participate in.
As for the abuses, some of the Mass guys are obviously just as bad as anyone in the cheating dept.

[Back Beach]

Originally Posted by big jay

Am I totally crazy here -- when the heck did it become written in stone that Bass Fishing now is in the toilet?

I don't think its remotely close yet, but by the time any meaningful regs are put in place we may look back at today as a missed oppotunity if some coast wide tightening on the recreational fishery doesn't occur in the next several years.

[JohnR]

Well, got 30 posts in for my morning reading to catch up on.

Originally Posted by Back Beach

I don't think its remotely close yet, but by the time any meaningful regs are put in place we may look back at today as a missed oppotunity if some coast wide tightening on the recreational fishery doesn't occur in the next several years.

It's going to be a missed opportunity if there isn't significant tightening of the rec & comm fisheries AND better protection of the forage.

[Jackbass]

I am glad I came back to this there is some excellent debate going on here.

No one group is 100 percent correct on this issue but as far as I am concerned the ASMFC will not act conservatively with the fishery. They never will it is up to us as recs or comms to police the fishery and have our voices heard.

Much like what recently happened with addendum two to the Striped Bass Management. It go put down because of overwhelming public outcry against it.

Believe me the guys that have written the bill are not yuppie jerks that just want life to be easier for them to catch fish with their fly rods. The contributors to H796 are From Woods Hole, marine biologists etc.

I am an electrician from MA I have far less of a clue on Marine Fisheries Management than many. I do know the last time we had a summer like we had this year was in the 80's Large fish being pounded off the block out off the rips in MV etc. We all know what happened then. The moratorium. When commercial fishing ended for Striped bass what happened the stocks came back in a Major way. They reopened the comm fishery and we are where we are now. Below average YOY indexes and breeders getting slaughtered.

If it were me in the Mid Atlantic Rock fish tourney and I knew there were guys dumping breeders overboard in lieu of a larger fish. I would not hesitate to report it. Remaining silent on something like that is just as bad as doing it your self. It is fisherman like that, that give us all a bad name.

[CowHunter]

The same goes for recreational fishermen. Like it or not, we have no "right" to catch and keep striped bass. As a migratory species their utilization is by law controlled by the Federal government. If we don't like it it is Federal not State law that has to change. That isn't likely (you want NC deciding how many fish they can keep?).

Seeing schools of bass killed like that is upsetting, but the fish in that picture are only a fraction of what got killed in the canal this past memorial day.

(Post sound familiar) - Above Posted by numbskull

Numbskull, am I so twisted??
Is it different than me wanting stripersforever making a decision on whats best for Mass Com guys? Giving everybody 20" slot limits? I dont know anybody that wants 20" slot limits, dont see that as being part of a solution.
And its all comm guys killing the fish in the canal too!

Im not disagreeing with everything you said, I posted alot of my Observations from experience up and down the coast. My problem is the blame is just going on the comms when they in no way kill as many fish as the rec guys. Just look at all the info on NOAA. I dont agree with that 100% because I know that the numbers are much higher. At least the comms hit their number and shut it down.

Alot of those areas you mentioned were dead, most of the time, in July and August. I also did have some of my biggest numbers EVER in areas you mention while people were at home on the internet complaining about no fish.

There are more variables that you are overlooking. There are Way more people fishing for bass then ever. Weather patterns, bait patterns all have changed, all contributing circumstances to what striped bass do. Migration has changed. The EEZ zone protects bass.You may not like the fact that the fish arent holding to their summer patterns, plain and simple. They come through in May and June and dont stop and stay. All those areas you mentioned had a great spring, just the fish didnt stay. For whatever reason there was nothing to hold em there. I guess scup wasnt enough. All the surf guys were happy as could be on Cutty in the Spring remember. Unfortunately surf guys cant go everywhere the fish go, I know because Ive done it since I can remember and its what I love most. So the fish dont hold in the areas you mention in July and August after you had a spectacular run in buzzards bay and vineyard sound in the spring. I know those fish didnt get wiped out. September and October the fish came back through, maybe all not the same route. (In Nj we get the monsters in the spring and miles of rats in the fall. Those fish get wiped out? because they do seem to come through in the spring). Funny I didnt see as many people fishing their in the fall but I can tell you it was not a barren wasteland. Fishing a tourney on a few rockpiles in vinyard sound and nomans I had more fish than I wanted to count, they may not have been monsters but really good number to fish to 25lbs....

I may not have fished 40 years ago so I cant say from experience as to what happened then when the fish were stacked everywhere you went....

Everything I wrote and posted I wrote from my own experiences and observations and not other peoples complaints. I can sit home and complain or go fishing. Your very fortunate to have fishing theraputic for you and something you can selfishly enjoy, been there, done that. Unfortunately I dont always share the same, its not always enjoyable for me when its work. Im forced to go when I dont really want to when its work. Blowin 30, rain, cold, snotty. I will say that I have found it rewarding when I put smiles on many of my clients faces and given em' once in a lifetime trophies along with trips they will never forget.

Im really gonna stop rambling. People want change and change is a coming anyway, maybe do with bass like the fluke, closed zones like the red snapper fishery in the south, divers help make that decision so they can enjoy watching fish swim. There is alot on the table. Me Ill just roll with the punches, no need to complain...

On a side note, They do have pay to fish fish farms where you can catch fish on every cast if it ever came down to it...

[CowHunter]

The above paragraph was posted by Numbskull... I cut and Pasted it.

[CowHunter]

Incase You wanted to post my writings at your club :-))

[CowHunter]

I am an electrician from MA I have far less of a clue on Marine Fisheries Management than many. I do know the last time we had a summer like we had this year was in the 80's Large fish being pounded off the block out off the rips in MV etc. We all know what happened then. The moratorium. When commercial fishing ended for Striped bass what happened the stocks came back in a Major way. They reopened the comm fishery and we are where we are now. Below average YOY indexes and breeders getting slaughtered.
Before I get ripped apart - ABOVE POSTED BY JACKBASS
JackBass
As you said, you have far less of a clue on marine management than many, but you wrote over a hundred letters. I know your trying to do what you think is the right thing on what little facts you have. You are on one extreme with stripers forever and that is shut down mass. Why because they are one of the commercial states that have a legit reporting system when the recs have none. Would such a fuss be made if there was no poundage quoata and you were allowed to sell fish commercially in Mass from July 1 to aug 31???
What happened in the 80's is in no way the same and the summer in block isnt what caused it. Do you even know what kind of limits to commercials and recs had back then??? Or what kind of regulations, dragging, gillnetting etc???
You do knowWe do have an EEZ which is basically closed waters for striped bass, did we have that in the 80's. you do know that they shut Chesapeake bay down from Jan to may??? There are alot more measures in Place.
Unfortunately the inshore fishery has seen a decline in many areas, just the same it has flourished in others.
If youre gonna fish the same spot year after year and hope they show, well thats on you...

Preach your story to the Crab guys down south, they are blaming the striped bass for eating all the crab. They say there is way to many striped bass.


You gonna hand out my posts at your club too ?!?!?!

[sokinwet]

Hey Cowhunter.....I'm going to INVITE you to my club!

[CowHunter]

Thanks Bud, Ill make sure to bring my posts with me!

[Doublerunner]

If I saw any one, on a boat or on land, dumping fish overboard to keep another one instead, I would call and report them immediately. But then again, only people who care about the stock would do that. Those that don't are just users and abusers

[numbskull]

Gee, I don't belong to any clubs, but I have no problem with you pointing out that I feel the recreational sector also is a huge part of the problem.

The real problem, however, is neither the recreational or commercial sector......it is the attitude of individuals in each group. As I see it you and the SF guys you hate are one of a kind. Both happy to shaft the other to improve their own lot.

A united voice from the recreational and commercial sector to the ASMFC asking for more conservative management (to protect us from ourselves) is what is needed. Somehow I don't see you as likely to be interested in that approach.

I doubt this bill will pass. I am very glad it was filed, however. At very least it may scare some sense into the ASMFC and the commercial sector that for too long has gleefully ignored the impact of their actions on the average schmuck fisherman. A better balance is needed than what we have now.

[CowHunter]

Hey JackBass, curious this was a horrible year for bluefish for me in Mass during July and August. Last year and previous years where I was guaranteed 200-300lbs as bycatch, and countless lost cause they would just bite through the damn floro, this year I couldnt seem to put a catch together. I really never was targeting them, but the bycatch was nice. I mean, this year on a good day, Maybe 80lbs or so. some times I would go days without seeing one! Areas that were stacked with bluefish, (Quicks Hole, Gayhead, etc), were void of life! (I did happen to notice the lack of bait). I will confess, I did get top dollar, some days .50!!! I dont know why they didnt come back to the same area in stay, but I do want to know if you and your marine bioligist freinds are doing anything about it? Maybe a Bluefishforever kind of thing? I mean, here we are in December and the mass Commercial quota is only 58% filled?? This is absurd, There is definately a big problem? The recs killing all the fish or the comms?
Funny, in the Fall the rhode Island coast Had miles and miles of them from watch hill to Matuinuck, they were eating all the bait on the shoreline. In early May I did notice that there were miles of Monster Bluefish coming up the jersey coast, I couldnt get away from them, big bruisers. I couldnt imagine why big bluefish would be on Anchovies, when in another 2 weeks they can have all the bunker they want! This is all so very confusing?!??!??? Did they ever show up at ur Spot?? Anybody??

[CowHunter]

Numbskull, weather you understand it or not, I am both commercial and Recreational.. Im all for conservation, Hell I belong to the CCA, Have done plenty for Charity and conservation, way more than most. Ive had 50 and 40lbers released.... Ive even donated 20-30lb bass to the Norwalk Aquarium. I have live releases all but one fish in the last few tournaments I fished. Im not the one that wants only commercial or only recreational. I just dont think its fair everybody is blaming mass commercial pinhookers when the recs are more at fault. Im sorry bud, I agree with some you say, but you are wrong to blame mass commercials just because the fish arent where you want them. Hell I would love for striped bass to be in NJ from Late March through January LIKE THEY USED TOO. I would waste gas money driving to Mass or NC. I may not like it but Im not gonna sit around either and hope the patterns change to my benifit and the fish come to me...

Your Self-Certain Friend

[Back Beach]

Originally Posted by numbskull

I doubt this bill will pass. I am very glad it was filed, however. At very least it may scare some sense into the ASMFC and the commercial sector that for too long has gleefully ignored the impact of their actions on the average schmuck fisherman. A better balance is needed than what we have now.

Give it time, G. It may not pass the first time around but that's not the plan, IMO. Its the beginning of a ground swell...ground swells start with filings, consensus building, and vision.
The impending angler(shmuck) registry/license is going to help this along in time, IMO.

[CowHunter]

Doublerunner, more than one person reported that incident....

[Back Beach]

Originally Posted by CowHunter

I just dont think its fair everybody is blaming mass commercial pinhookers when the recs are more at fault.

Thats not what anyone here is saying. We're saying the regulations, collectively, need tweaking in order to sustain and improve things longer term.

Half the time Numbskull doesn't even have hooks on his plugs, so don't go by what he says...