TWO BASS FOR RI CHARTER AND PARTY BOATS?

[MakoMike]

Originally Posted by BasicPatrick

Prior to the Am 6 increase to 2 @ 28" the coastal regs were 1 @ 28" for quite a few years. I still have all of that analysis in a box somewhere in my closet.

O.K., I'll take you and Slip's word for it, I didn't and still don't remember it. I do remember 1 at 36.

[piemma]

Originally Posted by MakoMike

O.K., I'll take you and Slip's word for it, I didn't and still don't remember it. I do remember 1 at 36.

...and 1 @34" and for a year 1 @28. I have a rod Dave Hammock at Murat's wrapped for me with a marker at 36", 1 @ 34" and 1 @ 28". He died in Nov of 1994 so it was all before 94

[Slipknot]

Originally Posted by MakoMike

When was it ever 1 fish at 28 inches?

I'm sure it was for more than one year but it was in 1999

I'm not sure when it went to 2 but that should have been changed back sooner and we would not be here where we are now obviously

oops, Patrick beat me to it

[BasicPatrick]

Since the current proposals only have a 50% chance of achieving the mortality reduction AND since the fact is that IF the new regulations do not achieve that reduction the next step would have to be closed seasons with some teeth, I have a pretty important suggestion for all those that are going to attend the upcoming hearings in MA & RI.

PLEASE MAKE SURE TO COMMENT THAT IF SPLIT REGULATIONS ARE PASSED SPLIT ACCOUNTABILITY MUST GO ALONG WITH THOSE REGULATIONS. IF THE MORTALITY REDUCTION IS NOT MET, THE NEXT ROUND OF ACCOUNTABILITY (AKA REDUCTIONS) SHOULD BE BASED ON DATA. IF 2 FISH OPTIONS FOR THE FOR HIRE FLEET DO NOT ACHEIVE THE REDUCTION BUT 1@28 FOR PRIVATE ANGLERS DOES, WHEN THE TIME COMES TO CLOSE PART OF MAY OR SEPTEMBER SHOULD ONLY APPLY TO THE FLEETS THAT DID NOT ACHEIVE THE REQUIRED REDUCTIONS.

SPLIT MEASURES SHOULD BE SPLIT ACROSS ALL ASPECTS OF MANAGEMENT.

[MakoMike]

Originally Posted by BasicPatrick

Since the current proposals only have a 50% chance of achieving the mortality reduction AND since the fact is that IF the new regulations do not achieve that reduction the next step would have to be closed seasons with some teeth, I have a pretty important suggestion for all those that are going to attend the upcoming hearings in MA & RI.

PLEASE MAKE SURE TO COMMENT THAT IF SPLIT REGULATIONS ARE PASSED SPLIT ACCOUNTABILITY MUST GO ALONG WITH THOSE REGULATIONS. IF THE MORTALITY REDUCTION IS NOT MET, THE NEXT ROUND OF ACCOUNTABILITY (AKA REDUCTIONS) SHOULD BE BASED ON DATA. IF 2 FISH OPTIONS FOR THE FOR HIRE FLEET DO NOT ACHEIVE THE REDUCTION BUT 1@28 FOR PRIVATE ANGLERS DOES, WHEN THE TIME COMES TO CLOSE PART OF MAY OR SEPTEMBER SHOULD ONLY APPLY TO THE FLEETS THAT DID NOT ACHEIVE THE REQUIRED REDUCTIONS.

SPLIT MEASURES SHOULD BE SPLIT ACROSS ALL ASPECTS OF MANAGEMENT.

Come on Pat, you know better than that. No one is going to track reductions in F by mode. Just like the separate measures for scup, sea bass, etc. Plus add into the equation that every state is likely to have at least slightly different measures. Just look at what Toby posted about NJ. To do what you suggest would require the ASMFC to track F by state, and you know that isn't going to happen.

[BasicPatrick]

Originally Posted by MakoMike

Come on Pat, you know better than that. No one is going to track reductions in F by mode. Just like the separate measures for scup, sea bass, etc. Plus add into the equation that every state is likely to have at least slightly different measures. Just look at what Toby posted about NJ. To do what you suggest would require the ASMFC to track F by state, and you know that isn't going to happen.

Totally Agree Mike...I actually don't think under the current data collection programs that it is even possible...however to make that argument are you also admitting ASMFC can't predict F (fishing mortality) under a split regulation. I think the split regulation is likely to result in failing to achieve the mortality reduction...and I for one do not think risking loss of May or September is worth the benefit to the industry.

[BasicPatrick]

Another thing about managing for hire and private anglers separately is that representation on management bodies, advisory panels, expenditures of license fees, expenditures of research funding etc etc all must change as well.

[afterhours]

The ASMFC has to go away.

[JohnR]

Some of us were at the meetings 10/15 years ago when they wanted to go from 1 to 2 fish in Mass for recs to allow for another 300K pounds for commercial and stated back then this was going to happen (hi Patrick ) . Some of us have been standing on the soapbox since way back they to stay at 1@36 as the limits were getting dropped in this miraculous display of recovery management that was the Striped Bass.

Mako Mike: "Precisely why I think its nothing but pure jealousy."

Nothing about jealousy, all about doing whats best for a health stock.

Originally Posted by Dave Peros

Despite the disagreements, I want to thank John R. for giving all of us a forum in which we can, in the end, agree to disagree, if that's what it comes to.

Thank you

Originally Posted by buckman

I think the problem here is that some want the fish to come back quick , no matter if some very good people ( yes honest guys have charter boats too ) get hurt in the process . It's simple not that the stock just fully recovers , it's gotta happen fast .
We are all above the pettiness , jealousy thing .
Correct ?
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Apparently we are not above the pettiness jealousy thing because one group wants more than the rest that also happens to elevate the risk.

Titanic Deckchair committee

[piemma]

I have to say, KUDOS to everyone who has posted on this thread. It has to be one of the better discussion threads on the Board in a long time.
Different takes on one subject that everyone clearly cares about.

I commend everyone who has participated.

[bobber]

again- I agree wholeheartedly^^^^

this didn't go down the drain of name-calling and personal insults like happens on the other site whenver opposing viewpoints come together.

and I'd like to add that I still respect everyone's opinion and their rights to pursue options to achieve their end goal.

(I just think I'm right-er than you(se) other guys....... :0

[thefishingfreak]

It's not an exemption. We are all being offered a choice. To pick one "option" off of a list of "options" given to everybody.
Somehow the scientists and fisheries managers who created these "choices" with their corrupt science, voodoo math and built in deceit, have offered up the same reduction outcome within 2% with lots of different scenarios. 9 of them to be exact. There's even charts and pictures and stuff with different percentage values placed next to these 9 "options" for all to see.
You are all upset at the Charter boats for picking a choice that is available. Not some loophole, or special treatment.
You want me to pick the option you pick, because you believe the stock is in much greater dyer straits then I do and that is an argument that is never going to be won.
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[scottw]

Originally Posted by thefishingfreak

It's not an exemption. We are all being offered a choice. To pick one "option" off of a list of "options" given to everybody.
Somehow the scientists and fisheries managers who created these "choices" with their corrupt science, voodoo math and built in deceit, have offered up the same reduction outcome within 2% with lots of different scenarios. 9 of them to be exact. There's even charts and pictures and stuff with different percentage values placed next to these 9 "options" for all to see.
You are all upset at the Charter boats for picking a choice that is available. Not some loophole, or special treatment.
You want me to pick the option you pick, because you believe the stock is in much greater dyer straits then I do and that is an argument that is never going to be won.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

think you're gonna need a mulligan on that one...

[PRBuzz]

Doesn't moving the limit to 2@33" just put more pressure on those schools that have predominately, let's say >60-70%, of the fish in the school are that size or larger? Those schools exist, the comm bass guys have no problem finding them and many reaching their daily quota, 15 fish >34". It does help to have a boat.

Schools of smaller fish will still be fished but C&R.....

[buckman]

Let's be perfectly clear, the Stellwagen Bank charter guys are not saying that there is no reduction needed. Quite to the contrary they have agreed to a reduction . Like Mike has stated sometimes it's not catching the fish and taking them home but to be able to hold out the possibility that they can catch 2 fish and take them home. Let's face it part of the experience of fishing is to take home a couple fillets and throw them on the grill and reminisce about the day while you're family is eating a good healthy meal. But being able to eat a second meal after spending 250 bucks to go fishing makes it an even greater experience.
When charterboats fish every day and their livelihood depends on finding fish, yes they are capable of getting on fish if they are around.
I understand the guys that make plugs for $$ and for joy wanting the inshore fishing to pick up. I would hope most of you would understand that this is not about the charterboats stuffing their pockets and slaughtering bass, but about continuing the tradition and a lifestyle and doing what many of them have done their whole lives.
Yes they are adapting, they are pushing whale watches and seal watches and sunrises ,sunsets and the whole experience but they need to be able to at least offer the ability to take home some fish. Especially when the targeted reduction is being kept in mind
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[scottw]

Originally Posted by buckman

the Stellwagen Bank charter guys are not saying that there is no reduction needed. Quite to the contrary they have agreed to a reduction .
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

you guys are really losing me now...

it's not an exemption(exception).... it's.... picking from several choices....

a reduction "is" needed and the charter guys "agreed" to it despite the numbers that created the need for a reduction coming from flawed science and disillusioned shore types who can't catch fish anyway and haven't seen the acres and acres of bass frolicking offshore...?

good to have a sense of humor in all of this...

[ronfish]

After reading all the doomsday scenarios in this thread I wonder what the guides would do if the fisheries managers decided that a total moratorium was needed coast wide for stripers. Sure you could catch-n-release stripers but couldn't possess any. I wonder what the guides would do then- quit or change species they targeted? Ron

[buckman]

Originally Posted by ronfish

After reading all the doomsday scenarios in this thread I wonder what the guides would do if the fisheries managers decided that a total moratorium was needed coast wide for stripers. Sure you could catch-n-release stripers but couldn't possess any. I wonder what the guides would do then- quit or change species they targeted? Ron

There is a likelihood they wouldn't make enough money to stay in business .
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[buckman]

Originally Posted by scottw

you guys are really losing me now...

it's not an exemption(exception).... it's.... picking from several choices....

a reduction "is" needed and the charter guys "agreed" to it despite the numbers that created the need for a reduction coming from flawed science and disillusioned shore types who can't catch fish anyway and haven't seen the acres and acres of bass frolicking offshore...?

good to have a sense of humor in all of this...

Exactly ) I'm just begging you not to put me on your list and go all Ferguson on my ass
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[scottw]

Originally Posted by buckman

Exactly ) I'm just begging you not to put me on your list and go all Ferguson on my ass
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I'll put you on my Christmas list

[afterhours]

Originally Posted by buckman

I understand the guys that make plugs for $$ and for joy wanting the inshore fishing to pick up.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

For the record i'm in favor of a moratorium right now if we can't get gamefish status. I want to see a world class fishery which in turn would provide a large economic boost to everybody. As far the $ goes i can always ( laying the groundwork now and proto'ing) build plugs for LMB ( where the $ is), musky, GT, roosterfish, etc. That and most of my customers would stand on a rock for 4 hrs in the middle of the nite for a chance to c&r a decent striper.

[Slipknot]

Originally Posted by buckman

Let's be perfectly clear, the Stellwagen Bank charter guys are not saying that there is no reduction needed. Quite to the contrary they have agreed to a reduction . Like Mike has stated sometimes it's not catching the fish and taking them home but to be able to hold out the possibility that they can catch 2 fish and take them home. Let's face it part of the experience of fishing is to take home a couple fillets and throw them on the grill and reminisce about the day while you're family is eating a good healthy meal. But being able to eat a second meal after spending 250 bucks to go fishing makes it an even greater experience.
When charterboats fish every day and their livelihood depends on finding fish, yes they are capable of getting on fish if they are around.
I understand the guys that make plugs for $$ and for joy wanting the inshore fishing to pick up. I would hope most of you would understand that this is not about the charterboats stuffing their pockets and slaughtering bass, but about continuing the tradition and a lifestyle and doing what many of them have done their whole lives.
Yes they are adapting, they are pushing whale watches and seal watches and sunrises ,sunsets and the whole experience but they need to be able to at least offer the ability to take home some fish. Especially when the targeted reduction is being kept in mind
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

sure , ok

1 striper and one bluefish equals 2 fish. there ya go
if you don't like that, how about 1 bass and 1 fluke
1 bass and 1 scup
1 bass and 1 mackeral
1 striper and 1 sea bass
1 striper and 1 cod
etc. etc. etc.

professional charters should be able to get them 2 fish to take home, there's lots to choose from. what's wrong with that?

I guess only time will tell if 25% reduction will even work, maybe it should have been 50% who knows

I'm not an economics professor, just a guy who enjoys fishing for striped bass with plenty of common sense.

[buckman]

I'm no longer going to argue whether their are striped bass in the ocean but let me give you this example.
This year out on Stellwagen Bank and the traditional summering areas for smaller bluefin tuna there was more bait than you can imagine however the Rec size fish didn't show until late, very late in the season. Last year they barely showed at all.
I don't recall anybody saying that bluefin was going extinct as a matter of fact the bio mass has increased. It happens.
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[MAKAI]

I have for many years, helped crew for a childhood friend who owns a charter business also out of green harbor. We too, have seen acres of frolicking happy fat bass on stellwagen.
But we are supposed to, it's right smack in the middle of their summer grounds. We also for fun, trailer and fish with other good fishermen the bay, the sound, the Elizabeth islands and a lot of other places that for almost 45 years we could somewhat consistently find fish. We are struck with the paucity of fish at most of these other spots.
I surmise that the imprinting ability of the easy to access bass is a big factor in this. Coupled with the technology to zero in on them, they can't keep up with us.
Adding to the mix for a myriad of reasons is the unreliability of the Chesapeake to be a consistent nursery.
There is way more going on here than any of us are privy to.

As a side note, the lack of cod pushed my friend out of the game this year. He had a good kick at the can for a while.
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[MAKAI]

One at 28 = two at 33.
As applicable to average Joe rec.
Any good " pro " skipper should have the ability to do that and then some.
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[buckman]

Originally Posted by MAKAI

One at 28 = two at 33.
As applicable to average Joe rec.
Any good " pro " skipper should have the ability to do that and then some.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Let me know when you get your captains license I could use a pro like that.
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[MAKAI]

My point exactly !
Was only a short time ago 2 at 33 was routine .
Remember ?
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[ivanputski]

Simply speaking, killing less bass seems better for the bass population than killing more fish.
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[Nebe]

Originally Posted by ivanputski

Simply speaking, killing less bass seems better for the bass population than killing more fish.
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Not when you are trying to use a loophole to your advantage
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[ivanputski]

My point for why a longwinded loophole isnt better for the bas population. More dead fish equals less fish to catch.... No matter how long a persons response on here
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