Hillary

[spence]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

"Armed drones and refueling planes staged offshore cost money. Unless there's a mission that justifies this... "


Pardon me? According to you, the lives of all those Americans aren't necessarily worth the cost of fueling a jet? Brave Americans holed up in an embassy annex, under attack by terrorists, fighting for their lives in a foreign land. But to you, we can't splurge for the jet fuel to send in the cavalry, unless the Congressional Budget Office does a cost-benefit-analysis first?

So according to you...

- there were no special forces available
- no wait, they were available, but inadequately armed (as if you'd have any clue about that)
- no wait, they were busy working on "another priority", which is something they only told you about, I guess, because no one else is using that as an excuse
- no wait, they were available, but the US government doesn't have the liquidity to splurge on jet fuel (I notice you have no quarrel with spending money on jet fuel so Obama can fly around the world to vacation with the swells). Spence, by the time your Messiah is through with his second term, we might not have enough cash to fuel up a jet, but as of today, I think we can swing it.

Have you no shame? None at all?

So is it your MO to just make #^&#^&#^&#^& up rather than have a real discussion?

-spence

[scottw]

Originally Posted by spence

So is it your MO to just make #^&#^&#^&#^& up rather than have a real discussion?

-spence

translation: " I know you are but what am I ? "

haaaaaaaaa...good one!

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

So is it your MO to just make #^&#^&#^&#^& up rather than have a real discussion?

-spence

No, it's not my m.o., it's yours. Did you read my last post, where I listed a half-dozen lame excuses you have posted in this thread, as to why help was not available, or not sent?

You are the one who speculated that we didn't have a credit card handy to pay for the gas in the jet (I picture a 5-star general at a Shell station with his pockets turned inside-out), and you are the one who suggested that spec-ops teams had other priorities at the time. I haven't heard anyone else make those excuses, but that didn't stop you. You are the one who said that Hilary didn't lie about getting shot at.

Please don't include me in your world where it's OK to make stuff up as you go along. I don't do that...

You want to discuss? Let's discuss! Where did you get the idea, that the reason that special forces weren't sent in, is because they were doing off doing other things? From what I saw, those forces were available to be sent it, and wanted to go in, but were told to stand down.





.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by scottw

translation: " I know you are but what am I ? "

:

Except I most certainly am not...

[spence]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

You want to discuss? Let's discuss! Where did you get the idea, that the reason that special forces weren't sent in, is because they were doing off doing other things? From what I saw, those forces were available to be sent it, and wanted to go in, but were told to stand down.

I got the crazy notion from the US Department of Defense.

They made the call because the troops weren't equipped for combat and there was concern about additional threats at the actual embassy. I've only said this about 5 times now...

It's pretty sad. You want to attack my lack of combat experience when all I'm doing is relaying what the military leadership has already said. Also, as a numbers guy I'd think you would have a basic understanding of budgeting.

For all the beotching you guys do about manipulation by the media it's astounding how eagerly you lap it up.

-spence

[Nebe]

Just my opinion. But we probably had an agreement that we would not have troops in Lybia or send in troops. Plus, what would have happened if a Blackhawk came in loaded with troops and it was hit with an rpg?? Mogadishu 2.0. Why they tried to cover it up is inexcusable but all politicians lie. If anyone thinks that all politicians are honest, they are fools. 4 people died and that's a shame, but there was probably a risk of more deaths and they felt it was the safest thing to do.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by Nebe

Just my opinion. But we probably had an agreement that we would not have troops in Lybia or send in troops.

To have such an agreement with a place that is a hot bed of terrorist and anti-American activity and then insert American personnel without even a backup plan in case of an emergency is purely god-awful, lame-brain, incompetent diplomacy.

Plus, what would have happened if a Blackhawk came in loaded with troops and it was hit with an rpg?? Mogadishu 2.0.

I hope we learned from Mogadishu and would not repeat the mistake. Drones, fighter jets, special ops, etc. would do a better job.

Why they tried to cover it up is inexcusable but all politicians lie. If anyone thinks that all politicians are honest, they are fools. 4 people died and that's a shame, but there was probably a risk of more deaths and they felt it was the safest thing to do.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

So we should accept the excuses and move on? That grants the politicians license to do whatever they wish and cover it with lies if they feel the public will disagree. That is pretty much what has been happening for the past seventy or eighty years, and has brought about the continuing "fundamental transformation" of responsible citizens into dependent sheep.

If all politicians lie, and, probably, "all" humans lie, what is the point of law and order? What is the point of contracts and agreements of all sort? What is the point of "diplomacy" if it is potentially a pack of lies? Does truth ever enter the equation? Are truth, "transparency," honor, justice, government by of and for the people nice sounding phrases used by cynical politicians to hoodwink us into their peculiar vision of freedom?

So is lying the "safest thing to do"? Are we really safer if how we govern, how we relate to the rest of the world, how we as individuals act, depends on how well we lie? And how readily we accept those lies?

[Nebe]

I think we need to get rid of all of them. Term limits for congress and the senate.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[spence]

Originally Posted by Nebe

Just my opinion. But we probably had an agreement that we would not have troops in Lybia or send in troops.

You bring up a good point that's often overlooked.

I think people have become so used to the US acting with impunity in Iraq and Afghanistan that they believe we can just do what ever we please. The Libyan government didn't want US uniformed troops on their soil. We are trying to help rebuild the country as a partner rather than an invader.

When we moved the drones in over Benghazi we asked for permission first so we wouldn't interfere with their airspace.

And I don't see how you can describe Libya as a "hotbed of terrorism" in fact I think that's something that Jim just made up.

Ambassador Stevens used to go running outside in the streets of Benghazi. Certainly the security conditions were deteriorating but a "hotbed?". Does anyone think Stevens would have traveled on his own free will to a lightly protected facility if he thought it was a "hotbed of terrorism?"

-spence

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

I got the crazy notion from the US Department of Defense.

They made the call because the troops weren't equipped for combat and there was concern about additional threats at the actual embassy. I've only said this about 5 times now...

It's pretty sad. You want to attack my lack of combat experience when all I'm doing is relaying what the military leadership has already said. Also, as a numbers guy I'd think you would have a basic understanding of budgeting.

For all the beotching you guys do about manipulation by the media it's astounding how eagerly you lap it up.

-spence

Spence, I asked you for proof of your position, that the special forces troops were involved with other priorities at th etime (something more vital than the lives of the Americans at the annex. Nowhere in this rant, do you support the notion that they were too busy.

"You want to attack my lack of combat experience when all I'm doing is relaying what the military leadership has already said."

You didn't provide a link to, or identify, who said they were inadequately armed, so I assumed that was your desperate attempt at explaining what took place.

If the troops weren't within reach, that's one thing. That's not what you said. You said they were off doing something more important, or that we didn't have the cash to fuel a jet, etc...

"They made the call because the troops weren't equipped for combat "

I have never heard of active-duty special forces troops not equipped for combat. I don't know who said that, nor do I know what their status was at the time of th eattack, so I could be wrong. But that's incomprehensible to me. By definition, these are extremely light-infantry assault troops. They don't need howitzers and battleships to support them.

"as a numbers guy I'd think you would have a basic understanding of budgeting:

I wager I know more about it then you, given that your political heroes won't make any fixes to SS or Medicare.

I get budgeting. And if you are the President, one of the first things you budget for, is safety measures for your folks in harm's way. If that was indeed the cause of this, budgeting (and I haven't heard anyone suggest that except you, that doesn't speak well of Obama's prioritization skills, does it? He has the $$ for a $25 million Hawaiin vacation, but no finds to protect diplomats in terrorist zones? Does that speak well of Obama's abilities to you?

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by Nebe

Just my opinion. But we probably had an agreement that we would not have troops in Lybia or send in troops. Plus, what would have happened if a Blackhawk came in loaded with troops and it was hit with an rpg?? Mogadishu 2.0. Why they tried to cover it up is inexcusable but all politicians lie. If anyone thinks that all politicians are honest, they are fools. 4 people died and that's a shame, but there was probably a risk of more deaths and they felt it was the safest thing to do.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

"what would have happened if a Blackhawk came in loaded with troops and it was hit with an rpg?? "

You drop them a mile from the mob, and they are there in 10 minutes. Infantry tactics 101. We had unarme ddrones flying overhead, that told us all we needed to know about where to drop those guys.

Also, if you can't risk an RPG attack, you may as well get rid of helicopters, becauae that risk is always present. Those guys train gfor hot insertions all the time, it's well within the capabilities. That's just fact, they get inserted into hot zones all the time...

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by spence

I think people have become so used to the US acting with impunity in Iraq and Afghanistan that they believe we can just do what ever we please.

Which "people" would that be? Half the people in this country criticize the other half's politics on a regular basis. Politicians have to go through the smoke screen of various channels and regulations before they can act with "impunity." Except when they can get away with cover-ups of malfeasance. Iraq and Afghanistan required a great deal cooperation and not done with impunity. There was and still is much push-back against those wars and prices to be paid politically as well as in blood and treasure. It is, by the way, becoming easier and easier for our governments to act against the will of the American people with greater degrees of impunity since the old bounds that limited government were breached.

The Libyan government didn't want US uniformed troops on their soil. We are trying to help rebuild the country as a partner rather than an invader.

Why would we agree to such a partnership that does not allow us to defend our own in a dangerous part of the world?

And I don't see how you can describe Libya as a "hotbed of terrorism" in fact I think that's something that Jim just made up.

Don't blame it on Jim. I was uncharacteristically being relativistic. Compared to Ames Iowa, Libya is a "hotbed" of terrorism. Compared to Afghanistan, maybe not so much.

Ambassador Stevens used to go running outside in the streets of Benghazi. Certainly the security conditions were deteriorating but a "hotbed?". Does anyone think Stevens would have traveled on his own free will to a lightly protected facility if he thought it was a "hotbed of terrorism?"

-spence

Yeah, conditions were "deteriorating." He asked for help. Guess he was worried and maybe stopped running outside in the streets. Probly second-guessed his free will decision to go to a "lightly protected facility."

[scottw]

Originally Posted by Nebe

Just my opinion. But we probably had an agreement that we would not have troops in Lybia or send in troops. Plus, what would have happened if a Blackhawk came in loaded with troops and it was hit with an rpg?? Mogadishu 2.0. Why they tried to cover it up is inexcusable but all politicians lie. If anyone thinks that all politicians are honest, they are fools. 4 people died and that's a shame, but there was probably a risk of more deaths and they felt it was the safest thing to do.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

probably.....what would have happened if?.......probably.......

maybe......you are so convinced that every bleepin' one lies.... that you are probably desperately reaching to avoid the truth....which is tough to accept....


"If anyone thinks that all politicians are honest, they are fools."

if you can produce a fool who thinks this I'll give you a hundred bucks

[scottw]

Originally Posted by spence

It's pretty sad. You want to attack my lack of combat experience when all I'm doing is relaying what the military leadership has already said.
-spence

he was just extrapolating from your previous posts

wait...when did Jim attack your lack of combat experience?....are you making things up?

[spence]

Originally Posted by detbuch

Which "people" would that be? Half the people in this country criticize the other half's politics on a regular basis. Politicians have to go through the smoke screen of various channels and regulations before they can act with "impunity." Except when they can get away with cover-ups of malfeasance. Iraq and Afghanistan required a great deal cooperation and not done with impunity. There was and still is much push-back against those wars and prices to be paid politically as well as in blood and treasure. It is, by the way, becoming easier and easier for our governments to act against the will of the American people with greater degrees of impunity since the old bounds that limited government were breached.

People being the citizenry. An interesting book that deals with this subject I've mentioned before is Andrew Bacehvich's "The New American Militarism."

Why would we agree to such a partnership that does not allow us to defend our own in a dangerous part of the world?

We have diplomatic personelle in many if not all dangerous nations and can't freely operate our military. Hence, actions are either covert, with some approval like in Yemen or a calculated risk like Pakistan.

Don't blame it on Jim. I was uncharacteristically being relativistic. Compared to Ames Iowa, Libya is a "hotbed" of terrorism. Compared to Afghanistan, maybe not so much., conditions were "deteriorating." He asked for help. Guess he was worried and maybe stopped running outside in the streets. Probly second-guessed his free will decision to go to a "lightly protected facility."

Compared to Ames Iowa, Philadelphia is a "hotbed" of terrorism

Yeah, conditions were "deteriorating." He asked for help. Guess he was worried and maybe stopped running outside in the streets. Probly second-guessed his free will decision to go to a "lightly protected facility."

It's worth noting that the security situation wasn't one where the threat of Islamic terrorism was a big topic. One problem was the local militias providing security didn't agree with the US endorsing certain political candidates. A lot of violence was the result of militias clashing to settle property or economic disputes. Not necessarily directed at Western interests...

-spence

[justplugit]

Originally Posted by spence

I think people have become so used to the US acting with impunity in Iraq and Afghanistan that they believe we can just do what ever we please. The Libyan government didn't want US uniformed troops on their soil. We are trying to help rebuild the country as a partner rather than an invader.


-spence

If I'm not mistaken, a country owns the Embassy property in the host country.
If the host country can't defend it we have the right to do it ourselves and is why we have defending troops in our Embassies.

We wouldn't have been acting with impunity in Libya, just defending the lives of our citizen personnel and the property we rightfully own.

[spence]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

You drop them a mile from the mob, and they are there in 10 minutes. Infantry tactics 101. We had unarme ddrones flying overhead, that told us all we needed to know about where to drop those guys.

I love all these fantasy hypotheticals that ignore what our own military leadership say about the situation.

They're probably all in on it as well. Jesus, this conspiracy is going to take down thousands of top officials.

-spence

[spence]

Originally Posted by justplugit

If I'm not mistaken, a country owns the Embassy property in the host country.
If the host country can't defend it we have the right to do it ourselves and is why we have defending troops in our Embassies.

We wouldn't have been acting with impunity in Libya, just defending the lives of our citizen personnel and the property we rightfully own.

Read the Wiki.

An Embassy is not sovereign territory, but the diplomats are usually afforded special privileges. The attack on Benghazi wasn't even on the "Embassy" but a consulate office.

So if you were to station Marines at the Embassy they could defend it, but that doesn't mean they could fly in air support and bomb attackers.

-spence

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

You bring up a good point that's often overlooked.

I think people have become so used to the US acting with impunity in Iraq and Afghanistan that they believe we can just do what ever we please. The Libyan government didn't want US uniformed troops on their soil. We are trying to help rebuild the country as a partner rather than an invader.

When we moved the drones in over Benghazi we asked for permission first so we wouldn't interfere with their airspace.

And I don't see how you can describe Libya as a "hotbed of terrorism" in fact I think that's something that Jim just made up.

Ambassador Stevens used to go running outside in the streets of Benghazi. Certainly the security conditions were deteriorating but a "hotbed?". Does anyone think Stevens would have traveled on his own free will to a lightly protected facility if he thought it was a "hotbed of terrorism?"

-spence

"The Libyan government didn't want US uniformed troops on their soil"

Did you just make that up? What's that, reason #8 why no soldiers went in (there were none, there were some but they weren't armed correctly, there were some but they were too busy, there were some but we couldn't afford to gas up the plane, there were some but Libya wouldn't let them in."

"And I don't see how you can describe Libya as a "hotbed of terrorism""

There were terrorist threats to the embassy in Libya (valid threats, it would seem". Terrorism is the reason that the diplomats asked for more security...they weren't afraid of flashers...

"in fact I think that's something that Jim just made up."

I don't play that card, you do. Spence, put down "Audacity Of Hope", and google "Al Qaeda Libya",and see what you get. Let's see if you are honest enough to admit that prior to the attack in Benghazi, the whol intelligence world knew Al Queda was active in Libya.

"Does anyone think Stevens would have traveled on his own free will to a lightly protected facility if he thought it was a "hotbed of terrorism?""

It wasn't always lightly protected. revently, the state department drastically reduced the number of security personnel. Very perceptive move, no?

Spence, there are patriots in this country who will gladly worl in areas that we know are dangerous. We owe it to such patriots to support them. I guess you disagree.

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

I love all these fantasy hypotheticals that ignore what our own military leadership say about the situation.

They're probably all in on it as well. Jesus, this conspiracy is going to take down thousands of top officials.

-spence

"I love all these fantasy hypotheticals "

It's not a fantasy hypothetical. Going back to at least Vietnam, helicopters have been used thousands of times to rescue Americans that are pinned down or surrounded, or out-numbered, in hot zones. Do you deny that? Do you seriously deny that?

[spence]

I'd consider giving you a mulligan on that post.

-spence

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

I'd consider giving you a mulligan on that post.

-spence

I'm not sure what you mean, and it's doubtful I care.

Spence, you said I fabricated the notion that Al Qaeda was known to be active in Libya. You said I fabricated the notion that military helicopters are quite capable of extracting soldiers who are pinned down.

You're wrong. You are demonstrably wrong. Maybe you should ask yourself, why is it that you have to lie so blatantly and so regularly, in order to support that which you believe? That should indicate that there might be something flawed about what you believe.

[spence]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

I'm not sure what you mean, and it's doubtful I care.

Spence, you said I fabricated the notion that Al Qaeda was known to be active in Libya. You said I fabricated the notion that military helicopters are quite capable of extracting soldiers who are pinned down.

You're wrong. You are demonstrably wrong. Maybe you should ask yourself, why is it that you have to lie so blatantly and so regularly, in order to support that which you believe? That should indicate that there might be something flawed about what you believe.

I didn't say any of those things.

What universe do you live in?

-spence

[Jim in CT]

Originally Posted by spence

I didn't say any of those things.

What universe do you live in?

-spence

OK, so now Spence is denying that he claimed in made up that Al Qaeda was n Libya. Here is what you posted, an exact quote...

"I don't see how you can describe Libya as a "hotbed of terrorism" in fact I think that's something that Jim just made up."

Spence, you also deny that you said I was inventing fantastic hypotheticals about using helicopters to rescue americans...here is what you posted, an exact quote...

"I love all these fantasy hypotheticals"

[justplugit]

Originally Posted by spence

Read the Wiki.

An Embassy is not sovereign territory, but the diplomats are usually afforded special privileges. The attack on Benghazi wasn't even on the "Embassy" but a consulate office.

So if you were to station Marines at the Embassy they could defend it, but that doesn't mean they could fly in air support and bomb attackers.

-spence

Read your Wiki source and found nothing about Embassy land ownership.

However, a Yahoo Search turned up that Embassys are either OWNED or Leased from a country and therefore it's property.

Please show me the law that says we can't protect our citizens under attack
with air support. Come on Spence, Wiki and your statement about no air support to save American lives doesn't cut it.

[spence]

So you're saying that if I buy property in France the US Govt can send in the military to protect me?

Wow.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[justplugit]

Originally Posted by Jim in CT

"The Libyan government didn't want US uniformed troops on their soil"

Did you just make that up? What's that, reason #8 why no soldiers went in (there were none, there were some but they weren't armed correctly, there were some but they were too busy, there were some but we couldn't afford to gas up the plane, there were some but Libya wouldn't let them in."

.

I love ya Spence, but you have to admit, that is funny.

[justplugit]

Originally Posted by spence

So you're saying that if I buy property in France the US Govt can send in the military to protect me?

Wow.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

No not you as an individual owner, but I hope so if you were living under a US Flagged/owned property.

[detbuch]

Originally Posted by spence

People being the citizenry. An interesting book that deals with this subject I've mentioned before is Andrew Bacehvich's "The New American Militarism."

You said that "people have become so used to acting with impunity in Iraq and Afghanistan that they believe we can just do whatever we please. Now, by "people" you mean the citizenry. A whole lot of the citizenry that I'm familiar with and whose opinions I've read or heard in various media have a different view. We did not act with impunity. Many "people" (citizenry) feel that we were too restrained and too bound by restrictive rules of engagement. And we did not act alone, but with others and with a great deal of worldwide and U.N. approval as well as with congressional consent. We paid a tremendous price for those incursions. That was not impunity. And many paid a political price as well. That was not impunity.

That some "people" got the notion that we acted with impunity may be the result of anti-American, anti-war, anti-capitalistic, and academic propaganda. Maybe even from books like bacehvich's The New American Militarism.

We have diplomatic personelle in many if not all dangerous nations and can't freely operate our military. Hence, actions are either covert, with some approval like in Yemen or a calculated risk like Pakistan.

We have diplomatic personnel in nations that are not dangerous and can't freely operate our military their either. But they are allowed to defend themselves and their diplomats if attacked. Or will even if they are not "allowed." If there is no plan or method to protect diplomats in dangerous countries, we should not send them there. That invites exactly what happened. That is not competent.

Compared to Ames Iowa, Philadelphia is a "hotbed" of terrorism

It may be a hotbed of crime, but terrorism--I don't think so. At least not yet.

It's worth noting that the security situation wasn't one where the threat of Islamic terrorism was a big topic.

The administration's version is that Al Qaeda was on the run and ineffective, that the administration had pretty much secured our safety, especially after the killing of bin Laden. That it was not a "big topic" was negligent, incompetent, and unrealistic. It unnecesarily left the diplomats vulnerable

One problem was the local militias providing security didn't agree with the US endorsing certain political candidates. A lot of violence was the result of militias clashing to settle property or economic disputes. Not necessarily directed at Western interests...

-spence

Apparently, the administration was wrong.

[scottw]

Originally Posted by spence

It's worth noting that the security situation wasn't one where the threat of Islamic terrorism was a big topic.
-spence

didn't they ban that phrase?....no wonder it wasn't a big topic

the only thing worth noting is that the security situation was deteriorating, help was requested, was not given and Americans ended up dead and the administration and it's surrogates lied repeatedly about it and continue to...there were a number of incidents leading up to this

"The British Foreign Office withdrew all consular staff from Benghazi in late June"


..you can continue to split hairs and regurgitate the talking points....the effect of which reinforces the fact that we have people who aren't nearly as smart as they pretend to be and who are too caught up in their I'm smarter than you posture and ideology to see or acknowledge what is actually going on and who will say and do just about anything to maintain that posture and promote their ideology which makes them a danger to the rest of us .....

Spence...if you deal in facts and truth you don't have to engage in all of the word games and obfuscation.....what happened is very clear...this game that you play serves no purpose but to make you look like a fool....as in the Ayers thread......


btw....Jim posted an article with remarks from a recent speech by Ayers where he made this comparison....



Bill Ayers, the 1960s radical who went on to become a college professor and associate of President Obama, said Saturday the bombings he helped the Weather Underground carry out to protest the Vietnam War bear no resemblance to the deadly Boston Marathon attack.

“How different is the shooting in Connecticut from shooting at a hunting range?” Ayers told a reporter who asked him to compare the incidents . “Just because they use the same thing, there’s no relationship at all.”


I'm sure that you can find some logic in this stupidity Spence but I'm pretty sure that of the four examples...three are illegal and can or could have deadly consequences and shooting at a hunting range is a most absurd comparison....but some are so impressed with their pretend brilliance that they don't realize or care that they look like fools....

"no relationship at all"