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Old 11-27-2019, 11:57 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by detbuch View Post
How do you know what I assume? Are assumptions that important to you? Conjectures? Innuendoes? Maybes? Could be? Probably? Possibly?


I prefer York's.
You assume York's is correct.

As the Trumplicans say "you don't have direct knowledge"

We'll leave common sense out of the discussion, it would ruin your narrative.

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Old 11-27-2019, 12:22 PM   #32
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You assume York's is correct.

As the Trumplicans say "you don't have direct knowledge"

We'll leave common sense out of the discussion, it would ruin your narrative.
Again, you employ your slippery sliding technique of shifting from what was said into saying something else that suits you or your narrative or your shadowy amorphous yet somehow in your mind concrete opinion. I didn't say that I assume York's is correct. Nor did I actually assume so. I said that I prefer it. I don't assume much of any conclusion that is being made about what the actual truth is. I simply don't know. I go by the notion that without proof of criminality, innocence is presumed.

Those that make conjectures don't or can't actually know. Except for, in your mind, you.
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Old 11-27-2019, 01:05 PM   #33
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Again, you employ your slippery sliding technique of shifting from what was said into saying something else that suits you or your narrative or your shadowy amorphous yet somehow in your mind concrete opinion. I didn't say that I assume York's is correct. Nor did I actually assume so. I said that I prefer it. I don't assume much of any conclusion that is being made about what the actual truth is. I simply don't know. I go by the notion that without proof of criminality, innocence is presumed.

Those that make conjectures don't or can't actually know. Except for, in your mind, you.
Per usual, lot's of verbiage, nothing said.

In your world on what cause could someone be indicted?

Could they just shoot someone, say a Norwegian, on Fifth Avenue and walk away as innocent with no chance of indictment, as long as no one saw them shoot the gun?

Doesn't require more than a yes or no answer.......or does it

Just as a reminder about innocent people, what I was taught as a child, your associates define you.

The president’s personal lawyer and campaign manager are currently in prison. His National Security Advisor pleaded guilty to federal crimes. His longtime political adviser was recently convicted. His current lawyer is under federal investigation.

Last edited by Pete F.; 11-27-2019 at 01:17 PM..

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Old 11-27-2019, 01:15 PM   #34
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Show of hands, is there anyone on this board that believes Trump will not be impeached in the house? Is there anyone on this board that believes the Senate will not remove him? I’ve not participated much in this constant debate over right, wrong, is it impeachable or not, because I’d bet my life the house will impeach and the senate will not remove, so I don’t see much point in the merry go round I see here lately.
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Old 11-27-2019, 01:23 PM   #35
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I think there is a good chance he will be removed and that he should be.

At this point the majority thought Nixon would not be either, his popularity waned two ways. Gradually, then suddenly.

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Old 11-27-2019, 01:23 PM   #36
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Per usual, lot's of verbiage, nothing said.

In your world on what cause could someone be indicted?

Could they just shoot someone, say a Norwegian, on Fifth Avenue and walk away as innocent with no chance of indictment, as long as no one saw them shoot the gun?

Doesn't require more than a yes or no answer.......or does it
Actally, my verbiage correctly pointed out how you mischaracterized what I said, and it pointed out that I don't have any assumptions about what is the "truth" re any the various narratives re Trump's intentions in withholding the money.

I do understand, however, that you would consider that "nothing." If it were something, it would show how slimy you tend to get. Or, as PaulS might say, how scummy.

As for your questions, someone could be indicted for various causes. It is said that a prosecutor could indict a ham sandwich. I don't know why you slid the discussion, if we can call it that, into my opinion of what can cause an indictment.
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Old 11-27-2019, 01:34 PM   #37
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Just as a reminder about innocent people, what I was taught as a child, your associates define you.

The president’s personal lawyer and campaign manager are currently in prison. His National Security Advisor pleaded guilty to federal crimes. His longtime political adviser was recently convicted. His current lawyer is under federal investigation.
I'm guessing that most of the people Trump is associated with are not in prison or guilty of federal crimes. I have no idea how that would fit into what you were taught as a child.

Dang, I have associated with some people who wound up doing bad things and even some who went to prison. Some were not the paragons of virtue even when I associated with them. I guess that makes me not innocent--makes me a guilty miscreant unfit for government employment. Somehow, I don't see it that way. For some reason, I feel that I am at least as fit as you to be considered reputable and a contributor to society.
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Old 11-27-2019, 01:41 PM   #38
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I'm guessing that most of the people Trump is associated with are not in prison or guilty of federal crimes. I have no idea how that would fit into what you were taught as a child.

Dang, I have associated with some people who wound up doing bad things and even some who went to prison. Some were not the paragons of virtue even when I associated with them. I guess that makes me not innocent--makes me a guilty miscreant unfit for government employment. Somehow, I don't see it that way. For some reason, I feel that I am at least as fit as you to be considered reputable and a contributor to society.
Totally understandable given your support for Floridaman

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Old 11-27-2019, 02:22 PM   #39
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Totally understandable given your support for Floridaman
And there it is folks. All those who support Trump are guilty. We are not honorable. We are not truthful. We are ignorant if not actually stupid. We are not worthy of respect, nor consideration as co-equal citizens in the continuing experiment of this great country. We don't match up to the elevated virtues of people like PeteF.

Your superior upbringing taught you to practice guilt by association. It apparently also taught you to convict by conjecture. It must have also taught you that to assume is to know.

Good God, what a reprobate Christ must have been! He associated with some of the worst lowlifes of his time and community. I have a gut feeling that he would have seen a more kindred spirit in Trump than in Pelosi or Sanders or most any Progressive.
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Old 11-27-2019, 02:29 PM   #40
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And there it is folks. All those who support Trump are guilty. We are not honorable. We are not truthful. We are ignorant if not actually stupid. We are not worthy of respect, nor consideration as co-equal citizens in the continuing experiment of this great country. We don't match up to the elevated virtues of people like PeteF.

Your superior upbringing taught you to practice guilt by association. It apparently also taught you to convict by conjecture. It must have also taught you that to assume is to know.

Good God, what a reprobate Christ must have been! He associated with some of the worst lowlifes of his time and community. I have a gut feeling that he would have seen a more kindred spirit in Trump than in Pelosi or Sanders or most any Progressive.
Right, There are only two kinds of people. Those who never stop attacking Trump, and those who are as sleazy as he is. There is no middle ground - none.
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Old 11-27-2019, 02:36 PM   #41
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Right, There are only two kinds of people. Those who never stop attacking Trump, and those who are as sleazy as he is. There is no middle ground - none.
So you are as sleazy as he is?
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Old 11-27-2019, 02:45 PM   #42
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So you are as sleazy as he is?
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Your ilk here, constantly refer to me as a Trumplican, and as someone who never criticizes him, and never would. It doesn't matter to them, that the accusation is demonstrably false. What matters, is that it supports The Narrative. That's all that matters. Its nothing more than simple-minded partisan BS. That helped him get elected by the way.

I can't think of anything your side could be doing to help him get re-elected, that they're not doing. Nothing. And you don't see it. You have Obama for Gods sake, who not long ago was the most liberal person in Congress, worried that the party is going too far to the left. And no one listens.

Carry on!
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Old 11-27-2019, 02:46 PM   #43
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And there it is folks. All those who support Trump are guilty. We are not honorable. We are not truthful. We are ignorant if not actually stupid. We are not worthy of respect, nor consideration as co-equal citizens in the continuing experiment of this great country. We don't match up to the elevated virtues of people like PeteF.

Your superior upbringing taught you to practice guilt by association. It apparently also taught you to convict by conjecture. It must have also taught you that to assume is to know.

Good God, what a reprobate Christ must have been! He associated with some of the worst lowlifes of his time and community. I have a gut feeling that he would have seen a more kindred spirit in Trump than in Pelosi or Sanders or most any Progressive.
Again, you employ your slippery sliding technique of shifting from what was said into saying something else that suits you or your narrative or your shadowy amorphous yet somehow in your mind concrete opinion.

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Old 11-27-2019, 03:09 PM   #44
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Your ilk here, constantly refer to me as a Trumplican, and as someone who never criticizes him, and never would. It doesn't matter to them, that the accusation is demonstrably false. What matters, is that it supports The Narrative. That's all that matters. Its nothing more than simple-minded partisan BS. That helped him get elected by the way.

I can't think of anything your side could be doing to help him get re-elected, that they're not doing. Nothing. And you don't see it. You have Obama for Gods sake, who not long ago was the most liberal person in Congress, worried that the party is going too far to the left. And no one listens.

Carry on!
As the victim cries his usual Narrative, But Obama, everyone else is a socialist, we will all die without Floridaman, he is the second coming of Christ complete with toilets of gold, all should worship him because he can do no wrong. And everyone is picking on him.

Meanwhile in the real world, other authoritarians rejoice
Putin gets what he wants
Erdogan gets what he wants
MBS gets what he wants
Netanyahu gets what he wants
Xi Jingping gets what he wants
Even NK gets the recognition they have wanted for generations

And historic alliances are tossed by the wayside because someone's gut tells him something.

There has been a little return but nothing compared to the losses created by this fool's incompetence.

We will pay for a generation for what he has undone.

Give him another term and this republic will be gone, you will crown him King.

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Old 11-27-2019, 03:14 PM   #45
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So you are as sleazy as he is?
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dont forget racist and all the other ists.
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PRO CHOICE REPUBLICAN
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Old 11-27-2019, 03:15 PM   #46
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As the victim cries his usual Narrative, But Obama, everyone else is a socialist, we will all die without Floridaman, he is the second coming of Christ complete with toilets of gold, all should worship him because he can do no wrong. And everyone is picking on him.

Meanwhile in the real world, other authoritarians rejoice
Putin gets what he wants
Erdogan gets what he wants
MBS gets what he wants
Netanyahu gets what he wants
Xi Jingping gets what he wants
Even NK gets the recognition they have wanted for generations

And historic alliances are tossed by the wayside because someone's gut tells him something.

There has been a little return but nothing compared to the losses created by this fool's incompetence.

We will pay for a generation for what he has undone.

Give him another term and this republic will be gone, you will crown him King.
There is always Canada for the real snowflakes. GTFO
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PRO CHOICE REPUBLICAN
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Old 11-27-2019, 03:21 PM   #47
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Show of hands, is there anyone on this board that believes Trump will not be impeached in the house? Is there anyone on this board that believes the Senate will not remove him? I’ve not participated much in this constant debate over right, wrong, is it impeachable or not, because I’d bet my life the house will impeach and the senate will not remove, so I don’t see much point in the merry go round I see here lately.
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The house will likely impeach, no way the senate removes him (unless something new comes to light). I agree with you, this is pointless. Also no reason why Congress shouldn't vote now. Get it over with.

You are 100% correct.
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Old 11-27-2019, 03:21 PM   #48
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There is always Canada for the real snowflakes. GTFO
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Wave on your way there

ESADA

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Old 11-27-2019, 03:44 PM   #49
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Wave on your way there

ESADA
I am going to stay right here where I am happy. I have a couple trips planned for the winter just to recharge with the family.

My point was,if you are so sad,then find a place that suits your needs. Life is too short to complain on a daily basis. Unless the whining makes you happy. If that is the case then please enjoy your misery. I know that I do.
MAGA
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PRO CHOICE REPUBLICAN
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Old 11-27-2019, 03:56 PM   #50
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Also no reason why Congress shouldn't vote now. Get it over with.
You're in an awful hurry for such an important occasion.

Usually for Republicans it only requires a blowjob and 3-4 years of investigation to start impeachment proceedings and that's with cooperation from the Presidents office, like actually testifying and even giving blood.

This President has provided ZERO documents and allowed no testimony, that is a first, a record and hopefully one that will never be permitted again. This one Floridaman honestly got.

In other word he has obstructed this investigation to the maximum extent possible, there is nothing else he could do.

Well except perhaps to investigate the investigators and he has done that.

These are the rules as written, the rest is up to Congress. They can choose to follow or ignore precedent, it's up to them.

The House of Representatives shall choose their speaker and other officers; and shall have the sole power of impeachment.

The Senate shall have the sole power to try all impeachments. When sitting for that purpose, they shall be on oath or affirmation. When the President of the United States is tried, the Chief Justice shall preside: And no person shall be convicted without the concurrence of two thirds of the members present.

Judgment in cases of impeachment shall not extend further than to removal from office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any office of honor, trust or profit under the United States: but the party convicted shall nevertheless be liable and subject to indictment, trial, judgment and punishment, according to law.

The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors.

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Old 11-27-2019, 03:58 PM   #51
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🤡🤡🍔🍔
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Old 11-27-2019, 04:08 PM   #52
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Show of hands, is there anyone on this board that believes Trump will not be impeached in the house? Is there anyone on this board that believes the Senate will not remove him? I’ve not participated much in this constant debate over right, wrong, is it impeachable or not, because I’d bet my life the house will impeach and the senate will not remove, so I don’t see much point in the merry go round I see here lately.
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just like clinton
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Old 11-27-2019, 09:35 PM   #53
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Again, you employ your slippery sliding technique of shifting from what was said into saying something else that suits you or your narrative or your shadowy amorphous yet somehow in your mind concrete opinion.
So what were you understanding when you said "Totally understandable given your support for Floridaman"?
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Old 11-27-2019, 10:49 PM   #54
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Senate Republicans are setting a dangerous precedent that threatens the republic itself. I'm not naive enough to think they would hold Democratic presidents to the low standard they've applied to Trump, but all future presidents will be able to point to Trump to justify:

a. Soliciting foreign attacks on our elections;

b. Using federal appropriations or other resources to pressure foreign governments to help them win reelection;

c. Implementing an across-the-board refusal to comply with any congressional oversight at all;

d. Firing the heads of the government's top law enforcement agencies for allowing investigations of the president;

e. Retaliating against whistleblowers and witnesses who testify before Congress;

f. Investigating investigators who investigate the president;

g. Attempting to retaliate against American companies perceived as insufficiently supportive of the president;

h. Attempting to award the president's own company federal contracts;

i. Using personal devices, servers or applications for official communications;

j. Communicating secretly with foreign leaders, with foreign governments knowing things about White House communications that our own government doesn't know;

k. Abandoning steadfast allies abruptly without prior warning to Congress to cede territory to Russian influence;

l. Destroying or concealing records containing politically damaging information;

m. Employing white nationalists and expressing empathy for white nationalists after an armed rally in which one of them murdered a counter protester and another shot a gun into a crowd;

n. Disseminating Russian disinformation;

o. Covering for the murder of a journalist working for an American news outlet by a foreign government that is a major customer of the president's private business;

p. Violating human rights and international law at our border;

q. Operating a supposed charity that was forced to shut down over its unlawful activities;

r. Lying incessantly to the American people;

s. Relentlessly attacking the free press;

t. Spending 1/4 of days in office visiting his own golf courses and 1/3 of them visiting his private businesses;

u. Violating the Emoluments Clauses of the U.S. Constitution;

w. Misusing the security clearance process to benefit his children and target perceived enemies;

x. Drawing down on government efforts to combat domestic terrorism in order to appease a segment of his base;

y. Refusing to aggressively investigate and build defenses against interference in our election by Russia, after the country helped him win an election;

z. Engaging in a documented campaign of obstruction of a Special Counsel's investigation.

aa. Lying about a hush money payoff and omitting his debt to his attorney for that payoff from his financial disclosure report (which is a crime if done knowingly and willfully);

bb. Coordinating with his attorney in connection with activities that got the attorney convicted of criminal campaign finance violations;

cc. Interfering in career personnel actions, which are required by law to be conducted free of political influence;

dd. Refusing to fire a repeat Hatch Act offender after receiving a recommendation of termination from the president's own Senate-confirmed appointee based on dozens of violations;

ee. Calling members of Congress names and accusing them of treason for conducting oversight;

ff. Attacking states and private citizens frequently and in terms that demean the presidency (see Johnson impeachment);

gg. Using the presidency to tout his private businesses and effectively encouraging a party, candidates, businesses and others to patronize his business;

hh. Causing the federal government to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars at his businesses and costing the American taxpayers well over $100 million on boondoggle trips to visit his properties;

ii. Hosting foreign leaders at his private businesses;

jj. Calling on the Justice Department to investigate political rivals;

kk. Using the presidency to endorse private businesses and the books of various authors as a reward for supporting the president;

ll. Engaging in nepotism based on a flawed OLC opinion;

mm. Possible misuse of appropriated funds by reallocating them in ways that may be illegal;

nn. Repeatedly criticizing American allies, supporting authoritarian leaders around the world, and undermining NATO; and

oo. Bypassing Congress through the use of "acting" heads of agencies and cabinets.

None of the Republican Senators defending Trump could say with a straight face that they would tolerate a Democratic president doing the same thing. But, given this dangerous precedent, they may have no choice if they ever lose control of the Senate. Is that what they want?

And this is only what Trump did while the remote threat of Congressional oversight existed. If the Senate acquits him, he will know for certain there is nothing that could ever lead to Congress removing him from office. And what he does next will similarly set precedents.

At this point, I would remind these unpatriotic Senators of the line "you have a republic if you can keep it," but a variation on this line may soon be more apt when Trump redoubles his attack on our election: You have a republic, if you can call this a republic.

Walter Michael Shaub Jr. (born February 20, 1971) is an American attorney specializing in government ethics who, from January 9, 2013 to July 19, 2017, was the director of the United States Office of Government Ethics.






Pace yourself, ya got 5 more years of Trump to get through.



You can’t truly call yourself “peaceful” unless you are capable of great violence.
If you are incapable of violence, you are not peaceful, you are just harmless.
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Old 11-28-2019, 08:29 AM   #55
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So what were you understanding when you said "Totally understandable given your support for Floridaman"?
That you would claim to be a victim
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Old 11-28-2019, 11:39 AM   #56
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That you would claim to be a victim
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Pointing out that you implicated that because I support Trump, and your previous assertion that you can know someone by whom they associate with, ergo I am like your version of Trump is hardly claiming to be a victim. I even asserted before that " I am at least as fit as you to be considered reputable and a contributor to society."

So, no, I didn't claim to be a victim, but, as usual, in order to slide out of directly and honestly answering a question, you slid into something else that suits your purpose.
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Old 11-29-2019, 01:21 PM   #57
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Pointing out that you implicated that because I support Trump, and your previous assertion that you can know someone by whom they associate with, ergo I am like your version of Trump is hardly claiming to be a victim. I even asserted before that " I am at least as fit as you to be considered reputable and a contributor to society."

So, no, I didn't claim to be a victim, but, as usual, in order to slide out of directly and honestly answering a question, you slid into something else that suits your purpose.

"And there it is folks. All those who support Trump are guilty. We are not honorable. We are not truthful. We are ignorant if not actually stupid. We are not worthy of respect, nor consideration as co-equal citizens in the continuing experiment of this great country. We don't match up to the elevated virtues of people like PeteF."

You poor boy, claiming to be horrified and called deplorable like Floridaman does while calling others human scum.

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Old 11-29-2019, 02:58 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by Pete F. View Post
You poor boy, claiming to be horrified and called deplorable like Floridaman does while calling others human scum.
You said that I assumed Byron York was correct, when I pointed out that I did not assume that, you slid out of that lie by claiming that my response was "nothing" and then wandered into the notion that one is defined by those he associates with implying that Trump was defined by those he knew and were indicted or went to prison.

When I pointed out that most (actually the vast, vast, majority) of the people that Trump has associated with were not indicted nor imprisoned, and that I had associated with some who had been, you replied that it was understandable since I supported Trump.

When I pointed out that your reply implied that all trump supporters were, per that association, the various deplorables that you characterize Trump to be, you deflect from that lie by throwing a quote back at me.

When I asked, then, "what were you understanding when you said "Totally understandable given your support for Floridaman?", you said that I claimed to be a victim.

When I debunked that lie, you switched to me claiming that I was horrified, which I never claimed--yet another usual lie by you.

That is why it is impossible to have a rational discussion with you. You keep sliding from lie to lie, into other narratives as escape routes, from one lie into another rather than having an honest conversation.

It is ironic, maybe projection, that you constantly refer to Trump as a liar.
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Old 11-29-2019, 04:07 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by detbuch View Post

I pointed out that most (actually the vast, vast, majority) of the people that Trump has associated with were not indicted nor imprisoned,
it's amazing how low the bar has bc with Repubs. and Pres.Trump.
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Old 11-29-2019, 04:17 PM   #60
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Because the high bar on the other side cheated their way to Hillary. How did that piece of honesty work out for you. Now, after strategic planning ...years in the making. They are going to counter with_____ _______?

I can not wait.
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