Super Surf guides?

[pbadad]

I'm toying with the possibility of building a SS1201L. Using a VS 200 w/ braid. I was going to use the Fugi Alconite spin guides. BSVAG. I 've been wrapping 10' GSB'S w/5 guides 50, 40, 25, 20, 16, 16 tip. It fishes fine . I may consider trying the concept guide arrangement but all those guides? I would not want to go any smaller than #12 running guides and a #12 or #16 tip. I want to use the blanks characteristics in which it was designed for if it fishes ok with the concept set up. I worry about weed catching the smallish guides and a slim braid shocker knot which occasionally is used.I was wondering if the BSVAG 40 would be ok for the catch guide also since it's a larger spool reel. I have a VS150 w/ a 40 catch guide and braid w/ no problems on a 9'.

[numbskull]

There was a lot about this both here and over on SOL rod forum earlier this winter. Back Beach did some testing of guide systems on 10 ft blanks as well. PM him. I think you'd be happy going 40-25-16-10-10-10-10, or 30-20-12-8-8-8-8-.....unless you plan to use mono. With braid the trick is to get it under control quickly to avoid guide wraps....smaller guides further away are the trick. The rod may not cast further, but it will feel lighter and reduce guide wraps.

[SeaWolf]

billy, the su1201L is a pretty light blank. it's lighter than the gsb1201L. i wouldn't throw more than 2 ounces personally with this rod, even tho the blank is rated up to 3 ounces. lami doesnt offer a production rod on this blank yet as far as i know. i'm not sure how heavy you were planning on throwing w/ this rod.

as far as guides, again, it depends on what you want it to do, how you fish as far as leaders and line, and which blank you settle on. if you still want the SSU-L model, i'd even consider single foot running guides to keep the tip weight light for a quicker recovery. with a vs 200, you can start with a 400 or even a 30mm if you plan on using braid. depending on the # test you use also will help in selecting a catch guide.

the bsvag are not concept guides as we know it. they are essentially the standard framed guides found on most rod today, the bsvlg, but have a thinner frame and use alconite rings, which are an improvement as they are lighter in wieght and thinner rings. you can however, incorporate the NGC into this style of guide by using a guide layout like ones that numbskull suggested. i use size 10 running guides on most of my heavy surf rods i build and sell and never had a problem. using 3 transition guides before the choke guide is what i normally do.

i never understood why some people were always so worried about weeds catching on the rod's tip. personally, i'd much rather have it catch there and pull it off vs have it come thru the tip, thru the running guides, and onto the spool as i reel.

[pbadad]

Dave thanks for the info. I didn't realize the SSU-L is lighter than the gsb. My partner wants to throw this rod in Ct waters and MV. Mainly bombers, Sluggos and SS darters and needles. As far as eels , rigged and live for sure. I will mention your advice to him. If he feels limited w/the SSU-L we will go with the GSB. He was looking for a lighter total weight than the GSB and with a quicker tip action. The light weight frame BSVAG w/ the small running guides should be OK w/ the GSB. #12 tip OK with these #10 guides?

[SeaWolf]

have him look into the ssu1201m blank. it's closer to the gsb1201L, but slightly faster and lighter. the ssu1201L is essentially a rod for lures under 2 ounces to me. perfect "rebel" rod if you wanted something like that in 10'. it would make a nice sluggo rod too, but the blank does lack some of the power of others in this series.

yeah, 12 tips are fine w/ 10 runners. just use a bgst or mnst concept tip. the pst tips are too heavy, thick ringed and discontinued.

[pbadad]

Dave, He owns a gsb1201m already. He was under the impression that the two blanks were similar in power. I spoke with him today and asked for his high end lure weight. 2.5oz SS darters. Like I mentioned mostly Sluggos, 1-2oz needles , and bombers. How is this L blank for 12-16" eels? Is the Lami factory rod # SS101MS the same blank? They rate it 1-4oz. The SS101MHS 2-6. I realize the ratings leave alot to be desired and 4oz ounces is not real. He currently uses a Arra 1084 and a Loomis 9' in CT waters. How would the 1084 compare to the power of the SSU1201L? Thanks

[SeaWolf]

the gsb1201m is closer to the ssu1201MH as far as power, but the feel is close to the ssu1201m due the ssu1201m being a little softer. it's top end is about 3 ounces really. the MH can handle up to 5 if needed, but 4-4.5 is more ideal.

the ss101ms production rod is built on the ssu1201m blank. the ss101mhs is built on the ssu1201mh blank.

the ssu1201L is rated 1-3. i think over 2 is pushing it. dont compare the ssu-series power ratings on the blank to the gsb-series ratings. i would put all 5 blanks in the ssu and gsb series in the 10' models in a category from 1-5 for power like this: ssu1201L, gsb1201L, ssu1201M, gsb1201M, ssu1201MH. honestly, i feel the ssu1081m is more powerful than the ssu1201L.

the arra 1084 is a slightly more powerful ssu1081m to me, but the ssu is a better overall blank for the money.

if he wants that length and knowing the rods he already has, the ssu1201L, gsb1201L or ssu1201M would be the best options. the ssu1201L might be a good rod for what he plans on doing, just dont have him throw over 2-2.5 ounces and a 16" eel is a heavy eel. for those purposes, he'd be better off using his gsb1201m. he cant buy this rod and think that he's going to throw the same lures as he does with the gsb1201m effectively. i think he'd like the ssu1201L, but just dont push the blank over 2 ounces if possible. also, i'd wrap it with single foot guides for runners and possibly even the transition guides to keep the weight down and make a really light rod.

[pbadad]

Dave, that was a great explaination of the blanks by number rate. It looks like the GSB1201L will be the chioce. I didn't realize there was 3 SSU 10' blanks. I didn't notice the third blank in the catolog. The both L blanks statically weigh vertually the same and have similar butt dementions. My partner liked the GSBL he has demo'ed prior to this. I was looking forward to a different combination but I don't want to waste the expense on a blank that after I build may not have any control over after it leaves my possession. Thanks for the input. I will forward your suggestions to him and advise him. I probably lean toward the lightframe guides BSVAG. Should I bother w/50 stripper or use a 40 high frame with a VS 200? Strickly braid.

[wader-dad]

Dave- I have a gsb1201L that is good to about 2 maybe 2 1/2 ounces. I was thinking about a ssu1201m for needles and darters of 3 ounces but some are 3 1/2. You say above the ssu1201m is good to about 3 ounces max. Can you get away with 3 1/2 ounces- or is there a better choice? I picked up the production model in Pat's shop and I like the parabolic type feel of it. Thanks Rob

[SeaWolf]

rob, i built a ssu1201m for a customer last year for the purpose of throwing 2-3.5 oz tops. he loves the rod, but he felt he was throwing a lot of 4 ounce stuff from time to time and it was too much for the rod. he felt 3 was really the top end for what he did. i dont like throwing over 3-3.5 w/ mine, but when i want to throw over 2.5-3 i grab my ssu1201mh anyhow. he is buying a ssu1201mh from me this year for lures over 3 ounces. plus, fighting fish is a little easier due to more butt power. since you already have a gsb1201L, i would look into the ssu1201MH for that next class of power. why have 2 rods with almost the same purpose? i wil say that you will notice the difference in weight between a ssu blank and a gsb blank in the same class of power. but, the ssu's are not cheap. about the same as the arra's now, at least for the blanks. i hope this helps. i can bring a rod to the next csa meeting if you want to see one.

[Saltheart]

I think i would use the 40HH for that rod. i would not want 8 size guide on my surf rods. No smaller than a 10. I might even use 12's. is it fuji concept...no. can get my line through 8's in the dark without missing one and running it through the frame instead of the ring....yes. it should be layed out with fishing in mind.

so 40 HH then normal 25 , 16 ,12 10 10 12 tip or 40HH then regular 25 , 20 , 16 12 , 12 , 16 tip

edited to add the 12 guide to the first layout

[Brian L]

Originally Posted by numbskull

There was a lot about this both here and over on SOL rod forum earlier this winter. Back Beach did some testing of guide systems on 10 ft blanks as well. PM him. I think you'd be happy going 40-25-16-10-10-10-10, or 30-20-12-8-8-8-8-.....unless you plan to use mono. With braid the trick is to get it under control quickly to avoid guide wraps....smaller guides further away are the trick. The rod may not cast further, but it will feel lighter and reduce guide wraps.

Mike did two of them with the new Fuji guide concept, Numbskull. I've got one of them and he's got the other. Can't recall the size of the guide set ups. Even on a ten footer, the tip weight feels light and the rod balances beautifully overall. Casting? Fuggedaboutit. It flings, and the accuracy is very good, even at long distances. I've loaded mine up and the flex of the blank is nice, with plenty of lifting power. Gotta fish a season with it to get a real good opinion of its overall performance, but I like what I've felt so far.

[Back Beach]

The rods I did are 40-25-16-10-8-8-8-8-tip.

With braid you can definitely go smaller, say 30-20-12-10-8-8-8-8.

I did both the 120M and SSU120MH.

Also did a GSB108M. I'll have it at TFCTFN if any of you guys are going and want to check it out.

[NIB]

Originally Posted by Back Beach

The rods I did are 40-25-16-10-8-8-8-8-tip.

With braid you can definitely go smaller, say 30-20-12-10-8-8-8-8.

I did both the 120M and SSU120MH.

Also did a GSB108M. I'll have it at TFCTFN if any of you guys are going and want to check it out.

Do all those guides help to get ya out of the house to go fishing..

[Back Beach]

Originally Posted by NIB

Do all those guides help to get ya out of the house to go fishing..

Of course they do....I'm even contemplating a Jersey trip this spring..

[pbadad]

Finally getting around to wrapping the GSB1201L rod. I test casted 30lb braid(Stren) with this set up: 40, 25, 16, 10, 10, 10, 10 10 & 12tip. It seemed great. using a VS 150 with the stripper 28.5" from the spool face. My concern is that if Fireline is used on this set up should I drop 2- 10's for 12's being that the Fireline is much stiffer and there may be a possibilty of line bunching?

[numbskull]

I don't think so. Fireline seems to pile up and guide wrap less than braid exactly because it is thicker and less flexible (though it gets much softer with use). I use 10's on a 120mh with 30 lb fire line without an issue.

[SeaWolf]

by the time the line gets to your first choke guide (10) it'll already be choked down. the rest of the runners are just that. there really is not any reason to increase to 12s unless you are passing a knot thru all the guides, in which case you may want to use all 12s as runners and then you should increase your tip to a 16 to pass it out the tip from the runners better. play with the location of the first 3 guides as that will take care of any line bunching.

[Saltheart]

Try pushing the first guide out to 34 to 38 and dropping 2 of the smaller guides.

[pbadad]

I casted the set up w/ 20lb Fireline. I didn't see any problems other than a noisey line spiral against the stripper. moved the guide to 30" and the subsequant transition guides up respectively and the sound quieted some what and the 1.5 popper casted every time very nicely. The bulls eye to the choke guide is still in place but when I put it back on the bench the NGC configuration of the line touching the top of the frame was not just so. Is there lee way when setting up the transition and choke guide placements? I may also drop one # 10 runner and spread the spacing. Confused!!!!!!!!!!!!

[WoodyCT]

I was in the same boat last summer when planning my GSB1201M. I asked around and got a bunch of opinions, many of which didn't match, and got to the point where I didn't know what to do. Here is what I settled on...


Reel stem- approximately 23" from butt
Guides are Fuji Alconite BMNAG (40, 25, 16, 12, 10, 10, 10)
Reel is a VS 250
Line is Sufix braid in 30-50lb. test

I stress tested it using the actual reel it will use with the line attached to a 10lb. dumbell, and pulled hard enough to just lift it just off the ground. I was really hauling on it and wondered if it would break. All the angles were roughly the same from guide to guide with none being drastically different. The line angle in the guides looked quite good (less drastic) compared to my factory Lami XS10MH with only 5guides on it.

Guide Spacing- From tip down in CM (1" = 2.5cm)

17, 35, 54, 76, 101, 129, 160

Reel stem is 55cm from butt of blank.

I COULD NOT BE HAPPIER WITH THE PERFORMANCE OF THE ROD!!!!

SUPER sensitive with so many contact points for the line to transfer energy to the blank, it casts like a rifle, and wind nots are nonexistant, although I do get one now and then when fishing spooks/pencils.

Jon

[pbadad]

Jon thanks for the reply. This morning I did another test casting session and finally I came to a conclusion, " Is this all necesary" ? Well lets say Iv'e put more time setting up this rod to be functunal as a caster and a fishing impliment. First and foremost this rod has to perform on the water. Casting an array of plugs in any conditions, minimize wind knots and cast well. I love the response the slower GSB blank gained by the #10 runners and the crisp of feel when you geta tug. I snagged some lily pads while testing in a local pond and instanly feel the tug. my final measrements go like this: #40 stripper 32" from spool extend out with rod placement at 61.5" from tip. The remaining guides #10 are 6", 6",6"6",6.5" , transition guides, #16 @ 7.5" #25 @ 10.5 & #40 12.5". Choke guide #10 is @ 62.5 from spool lip. I casted the 6K Sustain w/ 20lb Fireline w/o a hitch then for curiousity I put on the VS 250w/50lb Stren. The Vs casted as well and almost lets say w/in 10'- 15' of the Sustain. There was 0 issues with the 2.75" spool diameter VS. The choker set up is set up for the Sustain and a Vs200 in the future. TTYS