Fun times in Georgia

[JohnR]

The Country stupid!:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/10/wo...in&oref=slogin

GORI, Georgia — The conflict between Russia and the former Soviet republic of Georgia moved toward all-out war on Saturday as Russia prepared to land ground troops on Georgia’s coast and broadened its bombing campaign both within Georgia and in the disputed territory of Abkhazia.
The fighting that began when Georgian forces tried to retake the capital of South Ossetia, a pro-Russian region that won de facto autonomy from Georgia in the early 1990s, appeared to be developing into the worst clashes between Russia and a foreign military since the 1980s war in Afghanistan.

How many people today could find it on a map?

[spence]

Originally Posted by JohnR

How many people today could find it on a map?

How much oil do they have?

-spence

[Nebe]

its just below north croatia-lina and to the east of ala-bania..

[JohnR]

Originally Posted by spence

How much oil do they have?

-spence

Not much but they have a big arsed pipeline from Aberjianskitonov to Turkey that feeds western Europe that doesn't go through Russia

[justplugit]

Russia put the pretty much unknown Afganistan on the map.

Looks like it's doing the same with Georgia.

Don't think they would want to mess with the Turks though.

[spence]

And wasn't Bush just chumming it up with Putin in China the other day? WTF???

-spence

[Swimmer]

We had amercian service personel in Georgia three days before the attack. Luckily they left having finished whatever business they had there, or............

That pipeline and its ramifications scares the chit out of me. Those European nations nearby are going to have to comes up with some big ones to face this down.

[Joe]

The Americans were training the Georgians for a tour in Iraq - it said in Friday's paper that there were 2000 Americans in Georgia, mostly military advisors.
There are reports that Medvedev and Putin are both giving orders to the Russian military - what a crazy country.

[JohnR]

Originally Posted by Joe

There are reports that Medvedev and Putin are both giving orders to the Russian military - what a crazy country.

That is the truth. As bad as we think out reporting is the Russians are WHACKED when it comes to reports. Russian news papers are less credible than upstart tin-foil-hat internet blogs.

Interesting developments on this.

[justplugit]

Originally Posted by JohnR

Interesting developments on this.

For sure, there's more sheet than shinola goin on in this world right now.

[EarnedStripes44]

had a blast at six flags

[justplugit]

From what i've read and heard the last few days it looks like the Russians are upto their old tricks.

Can't be trusted, they don't seem to want any western democratic governments near their borders.

The UN is useless, same old same old, paper tiger on stances.

Sounds like a good idea to allow the Ukraine into Nato, get serious with the countries that are memebers, and arm the independent countries around Russia to the teeth.

Major mistake was not allowing Georgia into Nato.

[wheresmy50]

I don't think the Russians ever stopped being Russians.

I suppose they're not really a democracy anymore since Putin didn't cede power. That didn't get nearly enough coverage on the news. They were probably busy with a special about Atkins vs South Beach.

[RIJIMMY]

Originally Posted by justplugit

From what i've read and heard the last few days it looks like the Russians are upto their old tricks.

Can't be trusted, they don't seem to want any western democratic governments near their borders.

The UN is useless, same old same old, paper tiger on stances.

Sounds like a good idea to allow the Ukraine into Nato, get serious with the countries that are memebers, and arm the independent countries around Russia to the teeth.

Major mistake was not allowing Georgia into Nato.

This is a regional conflict, the world, NATO and everyone else should stay out of it. Its none of our business. This type of thinking is what leads to World Wars. If it doenst concern us, stay out of it.
reference my thread in the scups - read the book Churchill Hitler and the Unneccesary War. Alliances drive stupid Wars.

[wheresmy50]

I don't think you need to worry about NATO getting involved.

[justplugit]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

This is a regional conflict, the world, NATO and everyone else should stay out of it. Its none of our business. This type of thinking is what leads to World Wars. If it doenst concern us, stay out of it.
reference my thread in the scups - read the book Churchill Hitler and the Unneccesary War. Alliances drive stupid Wars.

I understand where you are coming from.

Ya, i would like to roll up the sidewalks too, but it's a different world now when things happen just about anywhere affects everyone.

It's a small world, even Obama says he's a World Citizen.

Having lived through the cold war, with atomic bomb drills in school ,and the Cuban Missel Crisis i gotta say the only thing that prevented another world war was our military strength.

Negotiate yes, but it only works when you are dealing from strength. Teddy Roosevelt nailed it, "speak softly but carry a BIG stick."

In the case of Georgia, they were there for us with 2000 troops in Iraq, imo you don't forget your friends.

I'm not for military action at this time, right now we couldn't mount it and Russia knows it, but allowing Georgia into NATO along with the Ukraine and making sure the countries that spun off by the old regime are strong, will go a long way in preventing future invasions.

[Joe]

There are three ways to shape global events or exercise power: militarily, economically and diplomatically.
The Cold War was waged and won using all three facets of power.
Militarily: through proxy wars in the third world
Diplomatically: through trade agreements and nuclear arms reduction
Economically: Through the acceleration of the arms race under Reagan.
It was third front, the economic one, which most did in the commies: bankrupted them.

[spence]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

This is a regional conflict, the world, NATO and everyone else should stay out of it. Its none of our business. This type of thinking is what leads to World Wars. If it doenst concern us, stay out of it.
reference my thread in the scups - read the book Churchill Hitler and the Unneccesary War. Alliances drive stupid Wars.

I guess that depends on how you interpret Russia's motive...

Seems to me they're punishing a pro-Westen country that has strategic energy interests in Europe, which influences the US.

Is this a regional issue? Sure, but you're talking about a pretty big region.

-spence

[buckman]

The Russians are all about controlling the oil. They are buying up all the oil under the Artic while we sit on our ass. Who would the enviromentalist want to pump the oil? The U.S. or the Russians. Not a peep out of them....

[spence]

Originally Posted by buckman

The Russians are all about controlling the oil. They are buying up all the oil under the Artic while we sit on our ass. Who would the enviromentalist want to pump the oil? The U.S. or the Russians. Not a peep out of them....

Buying up the oil under the Artic?

What fine bud have you been smoking tonight?

-spence

[Joe]

This could be something of a late opportunity for Condoleezza Rice to shine if she can broker a positive end.
She's uniquely qualified as an expert in area politics, understands the post-Soviet mindset like few others, and even speaks russian.

[RIROCKHOUND]

They are tying to claim the land under the artic Buckman.
whether there is oil there or not, and whether or not they own it, is still up for debate.

[JohnR]

I've been working my ass off so I haven't been on this thread the way I would have liked.

The Russians initiated the majority of this and baited the Georgians into attack - MilliVilli there was blank enough to take the bait. This has been brewing for years and really ramped up in the past 6 months.


The Russians have been using the Ossetians and Azbakians in a low level proxy war against the Georgians. One of the reasons those areas have so many "Russian Passport Holders" is that they "cleansed" the area of Georgians. That area has had these issues for hundreds of years.

The Russians had their Army, Navy, and Air Force READY to go for a while now. This same Army that faltered so badly with Chechnya (a stones throw away) was logistically and technically prepared for this little war. And the tanks were just a few hours away from the tunnel into So. Oseetia.

The Russians repaired the railroads in Azbachia over the past couple months to provide THAT avenue of troop delivery and logistic support.

The Russians had their Black Sea Fleet READY to steam destroyers, cruisers, and troop ships at a moments notice to provide ANOTHER supply line by sea.

The Ossetian and Azbach separatists, which were surprise surprise, fully armed and trained and supplied.

This was scripted and provoked.

The Russians have a LOT to gain of they can bend Georgia to become their satellite again.

Russia would control the ONLY other main avenue for Europe to get the lions share of their and fuel needs (gee, why isn't everyone bitching how its all about the oil now??).

Russia would be the gatekeeper of all of the economies of the Central Asian states now too, as there is nowhere else for them to go. EVERYTHING would go through Russia.

So where does the line get drawn? Georgia? Ukraine? Poland? Baltics? Or maybe, just like the good old days, at the Rhone? I use the French version because everything east would be speakin' russkie.

Alarmist? I hope the bleep not. But we are just a hair away from being BACK to a slippery slope.

And as a reminder for those that forgot about much of the last century, major warts and all, we were the good guys.

[spence]

Originally Posted by JohnR

I've been working my ass off so I haven't been on this thread the way I would have liked.

The Russians initiated the majority of this and baited the Georgians into attack - MilliVilli there was blank enough to take the bait. This has been brewing for years and really ramped up in the past 6 months.


The Russians have been using the Ossetians and Azbakians in a low level proxy war against the Georgians. One of the reasons those areas have so many "Russian Passport Holders" is that they "cleansed" the area of Georgians. That area has had these issues for hundreds of years.

The Russians had their Army, Navy, and Air Force READY to go for a while now. This same Army that faltered so badly with Chechnya (a stones throw away) was logistically and technically prepared for this little war. And the tanks were just a few hours away from the tunnel into So. Oseetia.

The Russians repaired the railroads in Azbachia over the past couple months to provide THAT avenue of troop delivery and logistic support.

The Russians had their Black Sea Fleet READY to steam destroyers, cruisers, and troop ships at a moments notice to provide ANOTHER supply line by sea.

The Ossetian and Azbach separatists, which were surprise surprise, fully armed and trained and supplied.

This was scripted and provoked.

The Russians have a LOT to gain of they can bend Georgia to become their satellite again.

Russia would control the ONLY other main avenue for Europe to get the lions share of their and fuel needs (gee, why isn't everyone bitching how its all about the oil now??).

Russia would be the gatekeeper of all of the economies of the Central Asian states now too, as there is nowhere else for them to go. EVERYTHING would go through Russia.

So where does the line get drawn? Georgia? Ukraine? Poland? Baltics? Or maybe, just like the good old days, at the Rhone? I use the French version because everything east would be speakin' russkie.

Alarmist? I hope the bleep not. But we are just a hair away from being BACK to a slippery slope.

And as a reminder for those that forgot about much of the last century, major warts and all, we were the good guys.

I agree, and I also think we shoud prod NATO to allow the Ukraine a fast track to status...as they're next.

Russia has nothing to gain from a broader war, and they have a lot to loose.

-spence

[buckman]

Sorry my mistake. "Laying claim to it".
http://www.ens-newswire.com/ens/aug2...7-08-02-01.asp

It is all about the oil. They are moving fast to control it.

And I don't smoke, can't you tell by my lack of support to legalize it

[Nebe]

Originally Posted by RIJIMMY

This is a regional conflict, the world, NATO and everyone else should stay out of it. Its none of our business. This type of thinking is what leads to World Wars. If it doenst concern us, stay out of it.
reference my thread in the scups - read the book Churchill Hitler and the Unneccesary War. Alliances drive stupid Wars.

its a shame you didnt read that book before we went into Iraq.....

[EarnedStripes44]

Originally Posted by JohnR

I've been working my ass off so I haven't been on this thread the way I would have liked.

The Russians initiated the majority of this and baited the Georgians into attack - MilliVilli there was blank enough to take the bait. This has been brewing for years and really ramped up in the past 6 months.


The Russians have been using the Ossetians and Azbakians in a low level proxy war against the Georgians. One of the reasons those areas have so many "Russian Passport Holders" is that they "cleansed" the area of Georgians. That area has had these issues for hundreds of years.

The Russians had their Army, Navy, and Air Force READY to go for a while now. This same Army that faltered so badly with Chechnya (a stones throw away) was logistically and technically prepared for this little war. And the tanks were just a few hours away from the tunnel into So. Oseetia.

The Russians repaired the railroads in Azbachia over the past couple months to provide THAT avenue of troop delivery and logistic support.

The Russians had their Black Sea Fleet READY to steam destroyers, cruisers, and troop ships at a moments notice to provide ANOTHER supply line by sea.

The Ossetian and Azbach separatists, which were surprise surprise, fully armed and trained and supplied.

This was scripted and provoked.

The Russians have a LOT to gain of they can bend Georgia to become their satellite again.

Russia would control the ONLY other main avenue for Europe to get the lions share of their and fuel needs (gee, why isn't everyone bitching how its all about the oil now??).

Russia would be the gatekeeper of all of the economies of the Central Asian states now too, as there is nowhere else for them to go. EVERYTHING would go through Russia.

So where does the line get drawn? Georgia? Ukraine? Poland? Baltics? Or maybe, just like the good old days, at the Rhone? I use the French version because everything east would be speakin' russkie.

Alarmist? I hope the bleep not. But we are just a hair away from being BACK to a slippery slope.

And as a reminder for those that forgot about much of the last century, major warts and all, we were the good guys.

Stalin is from Georgia. He is from the same town they occupied, Gori. Its got some historical significance to Moskva.

[EarnedStripes44]

Tbilisi is next....

[justplugit]

Originally Posted by JohnR

The Russians had their Army, Navy, and Air Force READY to go for a while now. This same Army that faltered so badly with Chechnya (a stones throw away) was logistically and technically prepared for this little war. And the tanks were just a few hours away from the tunnel into So. Oseetia.

The Russians repaired the railroads in Azbachia over the past couple months to provide THAT avenue of troop delivery and logistic support.

The Russians had their Black Sea Fleet READY to steam destroyers, cruisers, and troop ships at a moments notice to provide ANOTHER supply line by sea.

The Ossetian and Azbach separatists, which were surprise surprise, fully armed and trained and supplied.

This was scripted and provoked.

Ya, and timely executed on the opening day of the Olympics while Putin was waving and smiling at Bush. Bastages.

[spence]

Well, at least the US is ratcheting up the rhetoric on Russia. I wonder if Bush got tired of watching beach volleyball or what happened?

-spence