Penn State penalties

[PaulS]

Wow - loose of 10 scholarships per year (25 down to 15), $60,000,000 penalty (1 year of profit - but I missed who gets it), 4 year bowl ban, vacate all wins from 1998 - 2011, players can transfer immediately.

[nightfighter]

60 million, not tied to any source..... watch tuition increase soon.

And can someone explain what vacating wins is supposed to accomplish? (aside from tattering Paterno's on field accomplishment and record)

[PRBuzz]

$60 m goes to endowment for child abuse victims.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

[Mike P]

Penn State had an endowment of $1.83 billion in September of 2011. It's probably close to $2 billion by now. $60 million is nothing.

Here's what USC was hit with a couple of years ago, for violations that pale by comparison to PSU's sordid mess:

Loss of 10 scholarships/year for 3 years.

Forfeiture of the 2004 BCS Championship, and loss of its 2005 season's wins.

2 year post-season ban.

4 years of Probation.

Put the $60 million fine aside, and the real penalties, the ones that will sting the most, aren't much worse.

Taking away Paterno's wins is largely symbolic. As is taking away any school's wins when they're sanctioned.

[PaulS]

Originally Posted by nightfighter

And can someone explain what vacating wins is supposed to accomplish? (aside from tattering Paterno's on field accomplishment and record)

It means he won't be listed at the top of the all time wins list.

[Mike P]

Originally Posted by PaulS

It means he won't be listed at the top of the all time wins list.

And he never should have had the opportunity. PSU's delaying firing him until he broke Robinson's record was as bad as anything else they did during the whole fiasco.

[PaulS]

I think P.S. didn't want to go to the police not to protect Sandusky but to protect their reputation. Had they gone, they could have turned it into a positive. Any time JP was in a kids house he could have said that we turned in our friend of 30 years, our coach in waiting, b/c we care so much about our student athletes.

One good thing that came out of this is all the rules on reporting abuses that have been put into place. Hopefully, this never happens again.

Sad situation all the way around.

[PaulS]

We can talk about this all day but 2 things I found interesting. 1 - Now the last win prior to the ones that they have to give up was QBed by Mike McQuerry and the following statement by the pres. of Oregon state.

"Ed Ray, the president of Oregon State and the chairman of the N.C.A.A.'s executive committee, said the case, and the sanctions imposed, represented a declaration by university presidents and chancellors that “this has to stop.” By that he meant a win-at-all-costs mentality with respect to intercollegiate sports. "

“We’ve had enough,” he said."

With their Nike $, they're as much as fault for the arms race in college sports as any school.

[Mike P]

Originally Posted by PaulS

We can talk about this all day but 2 things I found interesting. 1 - Now the last win prior to the ones that they have to give up was QBed by Mike McQuerry and the following statement by the pres. of Oregon state.

"Ed Ray, the president of Oregon State and the chairman of the N.C.A.A.'s executive committee, said the case, and the sanctions imposed, represented a declaration by university presidents and chancellors that “this has to stop.” By that he meant a win-at-all-costs mentality with respect to intercollegiate sports. "

“We’ve had enough,” he said."

With their Nike $, they're as much as fault for the arms race in college sports as any school.

And what's the only logo allowed on PSU's uniforms? Plain white helmets, black shoes, basic no-frills jerseys and pants, but with one exception---the very visible Nike swoosh emblem on the front of each jersey.

[basswipe]

Originally Posted by nightfighter

And can someone explain what vacating wins is supposed to accomplish? (aside from tattering Paterno's on field accomplishment and record)

I can and its fairly simple.

Every single one of those wins came at the expense of an innocent child being raped.That POS Paterno knew and covered it all up so that he could have those wins.It shows the rest of the world that this pile of dung now in death has nothing and he deserves nothing but our hatred and condemnation for all eternity.Pretty simple to me.

Btw that thing called a statue should be scrapped and the proceeds donated to a children's charity.

[Saltheart]

Vacating wins is stupid. Those games were won on the field so call them what..vacated wins??? rediculous.

The ability for players to transfer without losing a year is big. My guess is all the real talent gets out of Dodge. Immediate impact on program.

60 Million...At 3 times that I bet PSU wishes it could just buy there way out of it without the other sanctions.

Loss of scholarships is big. Essentially they will lose all their current talent to transfers and be able to recruit nothing but second or third tier players even with the scholarships that remain. Same applies to the ban on bowl appearances. No top players will want to go there , scholarships or not.

I still say the blame for all this damage to Penn State lies with the University President. He knew , he's their intellectual who is supposed to make decisions like this. No way this kind of decision should be left up to a guy who's qualifications are he's a football coach , regardless how good , famous , iconic. If this were harvard or Yale and the university Presidents knew the details of such a scandal , do you tghink they would be head hunting for the football coach?

Police are next on my hit list. They should have at least made the accusations public even if there was not enough evidence to prosecute. once made public , other possible victims may have come forward and provided enough substance to further pursue the original charges.

Lastly , Paterno definitely F'ed up by being a part of the PSU administrative team who decided to keep it quiet, along with the President , VP , Athletic Director and apparently the board of Trustees. What were they thinking?? Maybe he led the cover up? Maybe he was told by the president and the board to be quiet and that they would handle it then never did anything? Maybe he was just a football coach , intellectually unequiped to see this whole thing clearly and became a totally misguided team player. All those answers went to the grave with him but one thing is for sure , he F'ed up.

[Mike P]

Originally Posted by Saltheart

Vacating wins is stupid. Those games were won on the field so call them what..vacated wins??? rediculous.

The ability for players to transfer without losing a year is big. My guess is all the real talent gets out of Dodge. Immediate impact on program.

60 Million...At 3 times that I bet PSU wishes it could just buy there way out of it without the other sanctions.

Loss of scholarships is big. Essentially they will lose all their current talent to transfers and be able to recruit nothing but second or third tier players even with the scholarships that remain. Same applies to the ban on bowl appearances. No top players will want to go there , scholarships or not.

I still say the blame for all this damage to Penn State lies with the University President. He knew , he's their intellectual who is supposed to make decisions like this. No way this kind of decision should be left up to a guy who's qualifications are he's a football coach , regardless how good , famous , iconic. If this were harvard or Yale and the university Presidents knew the details of such a scandal , do you tghink they would be head hunting for the football coach?

Police are next on my hit list. They should have at least made the accusations public even if there was not enough evidence to prosecute. once made public , other possible victims may have come forward and provided enough substance to further pursue the original charges.

Lastly , Paterno definitely F'ed up by being a part of the PSU administrative team who decided to keep it quiet, along with the President , VP , Athletic Director and apparently the board of Trustees. What were they thinking?? Maybe he led the cover up? Maybe he was told by the president and the board to be quiet and that they would handle it then never did anything? Maybe he was just a football coach , intellectually unequiped to see this whole thing clearly and became a totally misguided team player. All those answers went to the grave with him but one thing is for sure , he F'ed up.

Intellectually unequipped? The guy graduated from Brown, for cryinoutloud. Back in the day when you had to earn an Ivy League diploma. Even today, jocks have to pass admission standards and attend classes at the Ivies, and carry a minimum 2.0.

Stop making excuses for Paterno. The guy had more power than the university president and the trustees. Why do you think he was allowed to coach until he broke Eddie Robinson's record in the first place?

[spence]

Has nothing to do with intellect and everything to do with hubris.

-spence

[Saltheart]

Originally Posted by Mike P

Intellectually unequipped? The guy graduated from Brown, for cryinoutloud. Back in the day when you had to earn an Ivy League diploma. Even today, jocks have to pass admission standards and attend classes at the Ivies, and carry a minimum 2.0.

Stop making excuses for Paterno. The guy had more power than the university president and the trustees. Why do you think he was allowed to coach until he broke Eddie Robinson's record in the first place?

We all have our own way of looking at it. Your entitled to yours , I'm entitled to mine.

Its easy to point the finger at the dead guy who cannot speak in his own defense. I can envision a large group of conspirators all sitting around thinking "we are so lucky Paterno died , if he were alive to tell his side of the story we would be the ones with all the hate aimed at us. Thank God that dead men tell no tales."

There's more to this than has come out so far. If your desire for blood is satiated by blaming the dead guy you just may be missing the boat as to who really is most responsible for this.

[PaulS]

Originally Posted by Saltheart

Vacating wins is stupid. Those games were won on the field so call them what..vacated wins??? rediculous.

Mike,

The reason I disagree w/this is b/c what happens if a team plays its players (like SMU or USC w/Reggie Bush)? Do you allow them to keep the games that they won using basically pros vs. amateurs? How about national championships?

[Mike P]

Originally Posted by Saltheart

We all have our own way of looking at it. Your entitled to yours , I'm entitled to mine.

Its easy to point the finger at the dead guy who cannot speak in his own defense. I can envision a large group of conspirators all sitting around thinking "we are so lucky Paterno died , if he were alive to tell his side of the story we would be the ones with all the hate aimed at us. Thank God that dead men tell no tales."

There's more to this than has come out so far. If your desire for blood is satiated by blaming the dead guy you just may be missing the boat as to who really is most responsible for this.

Mike---put the pitcher of Joe Pa Kool-Aid down, and accept the fact that there is overwhelming evidence that Paterno knew what Sandusky was doing back in 1998, and not only didn't alert the authorities, but engaged in a deliberate cover-up to protect the reputation of his football program. This is what is at the heart of the Freeh investigation, and why they took his statue down, and why the football program is being hit with unprecedentedly severe sanctions. If it was the president's and trustees' fault, the football program would not have been penalized---or at least, not to that degree.

In my business, we call stuff like this obstruction of justice, and accessory to a crime. Based on what we now know, if he hadn't died, Paterno could have easily been prosecuted for being an accessory after the fact for the abuses that took place prior to 1998, and accessory before the fact for the ones after 1998. What he did wasn't all that much different than helping a killer dispose of the murder weapon. Every time thereafter, when he saw Sandusky in a locker room, or at a game, with a young boy at his side, the old bastard HAD TO KNOW what Sandusky's plan with that boy was. And his continued silence, and active cover-up, assisted Sandusky in carrying out those plans.

[Saltheart]

Pour the Kool aid over your head. It will do two things , cool you down and perhaps wash Paterno blood lust out of your eyes so you can see things clearly.

If Paterno had lived , been prosecuted , been allowed to testify and then found guilty of whatever charges , so be it. Put him in prison , take down his statues , whatever. Without that chance to tell his side of the story , I am not condemning anybody.

I believe you are wrong that the weight is falling on the football program solely because of Paterno's involvement. I believe Sandusky's affiliation with the football program is being linked to the actions by all the administrators (including Paterno) and board members with the assumption that the goal was to protect the football program. That assumption may be wrong. The cover up actions may have been aimed at protecting the university as a whole and/or the jobs of its executive administrators , all orchestrated by the University President and using Paterno and the football program as a scapegoat. You can say that "Football is everything at Penn state" but its not the paychecks , reputations , and careers of the executives in charge.
What you really want to be careful of is jumping to conclusions. Are you willing to settle for Paterno's blood and call it a day when there may be many others equally or more culpable in this whole mess? I'm not. Was he totally innocent? No. Is he primarily to blame? I don't know but I'm inclined to say no and turn up the ehat by thoroughly investigating everyone else involved .

I say be suspicious of everyone , including Paterno but don't settle on the easy target , a dead man who cannot speak on his own behalf , and let others, who may have been more directly responsible for the cover up , get off easy because of a scapegoat they very well may have set up to take the fall.

Nobody really knows what skeletons are yet to be uncovered in this whole thing. Don't let your blood lust to see an icon fall blind you to other possibilities that may yet come to light.

Paul S , I agree with game decisions being reversed because of recruiting violations , etc because those players should not have been on the field and do in fact have an affect on the outcome of the game. Those games should in fact be recorded as "forfeits do to ineligible players on the field". Games that are played fair and square to an outcome should stand. I also think that once a game (its just a game) is played and over , nobody really gives a damn about it years down the line but that's a whole other topic.

[bart]

Originally Posted by Mike P

Mike---put the pitcher of Joe Pa Kool-Aid down, and accept the fact that there is overwhelming evidence that Paterno knew what Sandusky was doing back in 1998, and not only didn't alert the authorities, but engaged in a deliberate cover-up to protect the reputation of his football program. This is what is at the heart of the Freeh investigation, and why they took his statue down, and why the football program is being hit with unprecedentedly severe sanctions. If it was the president's and trustees' fault, the football program would not have been penalized---or at least, not to that degree.

In my business, we call stuff like this obstruction of justice, and accessory to a crime. Based on what we now know, if he hadn't died, Paterno could have easily been prosecuted for being an accessory after the fact for the abuses that took place prior to 1998, and accessory before the fact for the ones after 1998. What he did wasn't all that much different than helping a killer dispose of the murder weapon. Every time thereafter, when he saw Sandusky in a locker room, or at a game, with a young boy at his side, the old bastard HAD TO KNOW what Sandusky's plan with that boy was. And his continued silence, and active cover-up, assisted Sandusky in carrying out those plans.

I completely agree with everything you said in this post.

[basswipe]

I am absolutely dumbfounded that there are people who are still defending Paterno.

[Squid kids Dad]

Originally Posted by basswipe

I am absolutely dumbfounded that there are people who are still defending Paterno.

I totally agree..How can anyone think Paterno had nothing to do with the cover up..If he acted on the info he had back in 98 look how many boys would have been saved..

[afterhours]

i feel terrible for the victims of this monster. i also feel bad for todays kids at psu. imo it seems that people who weren't around are being punished. i think that anyone associated with psu admin, campus police, football people at the time of this should be investigated, tried if need be, and terminated. taking the wins away at least takes the man who enabled the monster out of the record books. i also like that the fine(should have been at least doubled) to be set up as an anti abuse endowment. with that said it seems like they're punishing the many for the crimes of the few.

[JackK]

Originally Posted by Saltheart

I say be suspicious of everyone , including Paterno but don't settle on the easy target , a dead man who cannot speak on his own behalf , and let others, who may have been more directly responsible for the cover up , get off easy because of a scapegoat they very well may have set up to take the fall.

I partially agree with this. I'm just more amazed that so many people are sheep and just parrot what they hear on ESPN. Paterno was definitely at fault. Hugely, and unforgivably so. But can anyone here actually name off the top of their heads the PSU higher ups who were equally at fault with Paterno?

Beuller?

Spanier, Schultz, and Curley. But you don't hear that on ESPN, because they don't grab headlines. There's only one piece of hard information in the Freeh report (who here has actually looked at it) that comes from Paterno- and all that states is that he didn't think Sandusky could be the HC because he was too deeply involved in Second Mile (app. 3D). The rest is speculation and second hand info. Don't take this as me defending Paterno, I think it's pretty clear that he was completely involved- but the others were equally so, if not more. And now you have Spanier saying he was abused as a child, trying to garner sympathy? What a joke. He disgusts me.

And there's hardly any mention anymore of SANDUSKY himself, the actual person who committed the act.

Seems like this is a cliche situation of the public watching someone held in a "deified" status fall from grace. I just think it does an enormous disservice to the victims to ignore the other perpetrators of this crime, in addition to the monster who abused them.

[The Dad Fisherman]

Originally Posted by JackK

There's only one piece of hard information in the Freeh report (who here has actually looked at it) that comes from Paterno- and all that states is that he didn't think Sandusky could be the HC because he was too deeply involved in Second Mile (app. 3D). .

I read the whole thing http://www.thefreehreportonpsu.com/R...NAL_071212.pdf.....and there is more than one piece of info implicating him. There was a lot of e-mail traffic going around between all those parties....not necessarily joe...I'm betting he wasn't much of a technology guy.

But, seriously, once the seed was planted in his head from the 1998 incident....that should have been a red flag going forward....especially when your assistant coordinator says he saw him wiith a kid in the showers in 2001.

I agree the Media is crucifying Paterno because he is the big name and not focusing on the other guys...I'm pretty sure Spanier will be getting arrested for his role in it shortly.....especially if Curley and Schultz have been arrested for their roles.

[JackK]

Just one hard piece of evidence though- appendix 3D. Everything else is he said/she said via emails and interviews. I agree wholeheartedly that there's huge implication, and that it's warranted... I was just referring to the hard evidence

I hope they nail everyone to the wall for this. Including the janitors who watched it happen but kept quiet because they were afraid of losing their jobs.

[The Dad Fisherman]

Only 1 janitor witnessed it...and he is in a nursing home suffering from Dimentia. The others just said they heard from him what happened.

The civil suits haven't even begun yet....that will cost the school quite a few million as well.

[The Dad Fisherman]

Originally Posted by JackK

Just one hard piece of evidence though- appendix 3D.

Exhibits 3E and 3F are Joe Paterno's Handwriting

[Pete F.]

That's it, Hang the custodian, that will solve the problem. The problem is that liberal institutions think that the rules do not apply to them and that they can cover it up. What makes you think this is the only issue at a college that has been swept under the rug. The low level employee would be taken care of and move away.

[JackK]

Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman

Exhibits 3E and 3F are Joe Paterno's Handwriting

I missed 3F. Good call. Interesting that in 3E JVP is referred to- think he refers to himself in the third person often? Or written by someone else? Schultz?

But nonetheless, arguing semantics here. Thank you for clarifying the situation with the janitor, but that wasn't really my point, I apologize for being unclear. That whole area of PA deserves intense scrutiny, and anyone who was involved should be investigated thoroughly... and if deemed necessary, prosecuted.

Interested to see how long Sandusky lasts in federal pen.

[FishermanTim]

Although I believe he was definitely involved with the cover up, I only hope that all remaining people involved receive just as much negative publicity and public persecution for their troubles, if not more.

It's easy to focus on the dead guy, because he can't fight back and ANY speculations will be thrown about without any rebuttal.

The remaining POS's need to be publicly tried and punished to the full extent of the law.

I also agree that the civil lawsuits may end up costing the school more than the fine and sanctions.

They REALLY f'd up!!!

[RIROCKHOUND]

Originally Posted by Pete F.

The problem is that liberal institutions think that the rules do not apply to them and that they can cover it up.

Yup.
Something involving a cover up could never happen at a non-liberal school...